Apple's New Face ID Biometric System Works in the Dark and When Your Face is Obscured by Hats and Beards

[cmwade77]

I don't know if this poster was serious or not, but it is a valid point, there are parts of the world where faces are hidden by a large part of the population, I can't see this working well there.
[doublepost=1505344215][/doublepost]

Go look up some early threads when Touch Id was announced. Significant complaints and annoyances without anyone even using it.

This has nothing to do with blindly defending all things Apple (I'm happy to criticize them). This is thinking logically about what Apple is trying to do - showing the future of the iPhone. And along with removing bezels and a home button they've moved to what they're working toward being a more secure form of biometric security.

If they really wanted a secure form they would use Iris scanning and if you are ultra paranoid, combine Iris Scanning with Touch ID with Face ID.

As for Face ID being secure, that is laughable at best, I can think of ways that it could be fooled fairly easily, the reality is no technology is unhackable.

 

[rafark]

Allowing a spouse or significant other, or kids to share a phone is all fairly common practice. I would suspect that once Apple gets it working in the field with 100 million customers, and works out all the bugs, then they can expand it to allow multiple faces.

This isn't really a problem at the moment if true, since this phone is already reported to be in short supply, and there's sure to be significant demand even starting at $1,000. Given that, it's highly unlikely that many people are going to be facing the dilemma of needing to share it with someone else. Just a guess. So by the time the phone has caught up with demand, and FaceID tested extremely well in the field, either an update to iOS 11, or iOS 12 will permit additional faces.

I think it's a matter of performance and power. If with one face it has to scan billions of dots? Now multiply that for more than one face and it needs to compute a hell lot of data in order to match one of the faces.
I'm curious about how the phone will age after 3 or four years of use.

 

[iamthedudeman]

I think most on here are missing the point. Touch ID works, and works extremly well. If it doesnt work for you you might need to wash your hands more often. Seriously. After eating that fried chicken try washing your hands. Cannot blame Apple for greasy hands.

Touch ID works. It is seamless. Why not reduce the bezels maybe do what samsung did. They got it right with the S8. Apple solved a problem that did not need solving. Having to hold up your phone to your face to just unlock it is not user friendly. My take is that they couldn’t get touch ID to work under the screen and you now have face ID.

Instead of slide to swipe you now have swipe up! Apple just went backwards on the user experience. With Touch ID the need to swipe was gone. Now its back.

Mark my words. It will not work as expected and people will just rely on passcodes, like before touch ID. That will be less conveyance and more hassle. On top of that less secure. I hope it works out and works as advertised. But there is a reason the CIA and FBI and all government agencies use finger print scanning and not face scanning.

The home button is not broken, why fix it?

 

[profets]

I don't know if this poster was serious or not, but it is a valid point, there are parts of the world where faces are hidden by a large part of the population, I can't see this working well there.
[doublepost=1505344215][/doublepost]
If they really wanted a secure form they would use Iris scanning and if you are ultra paranoid, combine Iris Scanning with Touch ID with Face ID.

As for Face ID being secure, that is laughable at best, I can think of ways that it could be fooled fairly easily, the reality is no technology is unhackable.

Really? Interesting. Let's hear some examples of how it can be fooled "fairly easily". If not, you're comment is laughable at best.

 

[M2M]

Nope!!! Because most people’s hands are dirty or wet or what if you’re cooking have to wipe your hand. So face ID is actually more convinient.

But then what are you doing todo once it's unlocked without your hands ? Start Siri ? Need to push a button. Answer a call ? Need to touch a button. Etc etc.

 

[profets]

I think most on here are missing the point. Touch ID works, and works extremly well. If it doesnt work for you you might need to wash your hands more often. Seriously. After eating that fried chicken try washing your hands. Cannot blame Apple for greasy hands.

Touch ID works 95 percent of the time for 95 percent of people. It is seamless. Why not reduce the bezels maybe do what samsung did. They got it right with the S8. Apple solved a problem that did not need solving. Having to hold up your phone to your face to just unlock it is not user friendly. My take is that they couldn’t get touch ID to work under the screen and you now have face ID. Mark my words. It will not work as expected and people will just rely on passcodes, like before touch ID. That will be less conveyance and more hassle. On top of that less secure. I hope it works out and works as advertised. But there is a reason the CIA and FBI and all government agencies use finger print scanning and not face scanning.

The home button is not broken, why fix it?

Yes, most are missing the point. Including you it seems.

They're very clear about what the iPhone X is. It's their future vision for the iPhone. As much screen as possible on the device. Seamless authentication that doesn't require physical input. A little deduction goes a long way.

 

[Mansu944]

Sure, Face ID cant be fooled but still, it doesnt look natural or logical at all. When picking up my iPhone with my thumb on my home buiten, I'm there. No swipe, no looking into the camera. Also with Face ID, using one hand and my thumb for swiping up, it is going to be painfull for me because my thumbs joint isn't that new and flex anymore.

- Edit -
An example that wont work for me: When I'm standing and I look at my phone (at a concert or other crowded places) to peek for messages, missed calls or notifications. Pretty sure that from a lower hip-to-face angle it wont work as a Face ID scan.

you don't know that, the lens could be very wide angle.

 

[HEK]

Face ID is really intriguing but touch ID was so easy and convenient. I was a little shocked at how they said 1-50,000 could beat a fingerprint ID vs 1-1,000,000 with face recognition. I thought we all had unique fingerprints? Like snowflakes.

I will say I still much rather face ID than an awkwardly placed rear touch ID.

You do have unique fingerprints. However since only a limited amount of data points are checked. It is possible that a sufficient number of data points overlap with someone else to release the lock.

If you visually check every swirl and loop you will find the finger prints are not identical.

 

[Beerstalker]

Imagine someone seeing a picture of you with and without a beard. Big difference. But if you take a picture each day or even many times a day as that beard grows, the change is far less drastic and the difference isn't much.

I can see how that might work for growing facial hair, but what about the other way around? You have a beard when you set it up and then shave it off. Or what about having long hair and then cutting it/shaving it off? That is going to be a big change all at once.

I'm also wondering about scarves/facemasks/headbands/etc that cover part of your face. The pictures I've seen with a guy wearing a scarf has it down around his neck. When you really need a scarf it is usually covering half of your face. I guess it can look and see that 50% of the face matches or something like that and call it close enough, but doesn't that make it easier to fool?

I also find it annoying that you can evidently only use one face. My fingerprint is on all my devices, my wifes, my parents, my in-laws etc because I am the one who sets them up and does all updating etc. So now I'm going to have to remember all of their passcodes all the time? I also have my wife's fingerprint on my stuff so she can get on it if needed, now she will need my passcode? That seems annoying.

 

[iamthedudeman]

Yes, most are missing the point. Including you it seems.

They're very clear about what the iPhone X is. It's their future vision for the iPhone. As much screen as possible on the device. Seamless authentication that doesn't require physical input. A little deduction goes a long way.

Seamless authentication? You have to swipe up after face ID scans your face to enter the home screen. How doesnt’t that require physical input? How is that a seemless process compared to touch ID?

Touch ID is a one step solution. That works. Face ID is a two step process that may or may not work reliability. Leave the deducing to sherlock holmes my friend.

A little deduction goes a long way.....................................................

 

[HEK]

No matter how much I read about it, I can only think about disadvantages when compared to TouchID. Regarding convenience it's certainly a step backwards. And let's face (heh) it, this is all about convenience, security is not a serious matter here. Pretty disappointed they went in this direction.

Anyone that truely needs security should not be using either Touch ID or face ID. Use long string mixed alpha numeric pass code. This provides optimal security, and police can not force you to reveal pass code. They can force your finger or face to look or touch phone.

Touch ID and face ID are meant for convenience. They will not replace security of long string passcode.

 

[simonmet]

I’m most interested and concerned by the new UI-control gestures. So swiping up from the bottom is now the home screen and swiping down from the top is Control Centre? How do I activate Reachability?

They can’t possibly suggest you can swipe down from the top of the screen single-handedly or reach buttons and icons at the top of the screen without it? The screen is as tall or taller than the 7 Plus and there’s no way that’s possible. I use reachability on my 7 Plus all the time! I also use Control Centre very frequently and with ease single-handedy on my 7 Plus, so if it’s not as easy on the X that’s another strike against the new phone.

The home button was such an elegant solution with which you could achieve so much. It also had great tactile feedback, especially on the iphone 7 (and now 8). The application switcher and Siri activation do not look easier on the X!

 

[john123]

Face ID When Unconscious or Sleeping

If someone knocks you unconscious or attempts to unlock your iPhone X with your face while you're sleeping, it's not going to work.

As mentioned above, you need to look at your iPhone for Face ID to grant access to your device.

Step 1: Knock person unconscious.
Step 2: Pry their eyelids open.
Step 3: Unlock iPhone X.
Step 4: Profit.

 

[TheShadowKnows!]

maybe with all that scanning in your face 24/7 people are going to start getting wrinkle early in their lives, probably when they reach 30 they are going to look like 60...

Joking aside, does anyone know the power spectrum of the infrared laser that constantly exposes the user's face?

This because I cannot find anything about this on the iPhone X technical specifications.

There is a NIH report published at https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3116568/
"Effect of infrared radiation on the lens"
Finding: The protein of eye lens is very sensitive to IR radiation which is hazardous and may lead to cataract.

Given the constant use of iPhones, and now FaceID, your joke about face scanning 24/7 may be no joke.

 

[profets]

Seamless authentication? You have to swipe up after face ID scans your face to enter the home screen. How doesnt’t that require physical input? How is that a seemless process compared to touch ID?

Touch ID is a one step solution. That works. Face ID is a two step process that may or may not work reliability. Leave the deducing to sherlock holmes my friend.

A little deduction goes a long way.....................................................

Face ID puts the phone into an unlocked state. That part is seamless. Lift phone while looking at it and it'll be unlocked. Flicking up is to see the home screen instead of the cover sheet.

Apple's intention for Touch ID is the same process. Resting finger on the home button puts the phone into an unlocked state and stays at the lock screen. It just happens that there's an accessibility setting that lets you jump to the home screen from using that same gesture of resting your thumb on the home button.

I get it, everyone suddenly wants the lock screen/cover sheet to not be a thing for some reason. Maybe there's an accessibility setting for Face ID to jump right to the home screen as well.

LOL @ Sherlock

 

[EdT]

Yet another poster who clearly didn't watch the keynote.

No it didn't. Stop spreading lies and FUD.

You make a lot of assumptions when coming to the conclusion that it 'failed'. You make the assumption that it failed twice on Craig lifting it up. What about the possibility that an engineer or phone handler on the stage caused it to fail before that? That's VERY likely.

As if apple hasn't been doing this all along. Oh please, the hysteria in this thread is beyond entertaining.

Seems like there are some other websites that also are trying to spread FUD:
ArsTechnica-
https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2017/09/face-id-on-the-iphone-x-is-probably-going-to-suck/

The Verge-
https://www.theverge.com/circuitbreaker/2017/9/12/16296912/apple-iphone-x-face-id-demo-fail

The New Scientist-
https://www.newscientist.com/articl...ace-id-is-a-terrible-way-to-secure-your-data/

Now lets examine your collective ability to comprehend a statement:

EdT:
'It failed at the demo. Even if there is a valid reason they need to get 3rd party sites to verify it really does work as quickly as possible.'

Perception is frequently reality. If Apple was to show a video of 10,000 people having no trouble whatsoever using Face ID a lot of people would say its rigged. Quite frankly, even if a neutral site tests it and it passes there will be some people who say that Apple bought them out.

Maybe whoever set the phones for Craig looked at the unit a couple of times during setup and locked it out. Not a failure of the system but it still made for bad tv.

Maybe some other valid reason caused it to lock out.

Maybe it just didn't work.

Viewers don't know. ESPECIALLY people who don't live and breathe Apple products. What they saw was a feature not work, and the need to use a backup phone. Any explanation by Apple about why will be viewed with at least a little suspicion, even if it's the honest to god truth. And most people didn't watch the presentation at all. Most people never do. All they will see is a 15 second clip of the phone not unlocking and then there will be commentators who immediately pop in after the clip to make fun of both Apple and Apple fans. Those commentators don't care at all if what they are presenting is accurate. They're there to get laughs and poke fun at people, not investigate.

As a matter of fact, I did watch the keynote. Since there is a very large group who like to make fun of Apple and bad mouth the company, I knew as soon as it happened that this would be presented in the worst possible way at least in some media. I linked to a few sites above, but I would have had no trouble linking to a lot more. Anytime Apple has any difficulty there are those who delight in it. It's probably a long thread on Reddit (I haven't looked yet but I will), and I know it's all over Twitter and people are sharing it on Facebook.

Most of all, I'd like to thank everyone who is insulting anyone who has the temerity to point out that this didn't look good, or even -gasp- express that they prefer using Touch ID. Especially since other than insults you don't really explain why your position is a valid point of view. And we all know that insulting people is the way to win them over.

Edit: There are some posts poking fun (and more) on Reddit but there is also an actual discussion of both 'is it reliable and/or is Touch ID better'.

 

[tubular]

So if I break my nose, I'm locked out of my phone forever?

 

[profets]

I’m most interested and concerned by the new UI-control gestures. So swiping up from the bottom is now the home screen and swiping down from the top is Control Centre? How do I activate Reachability?

They can’t possibly suggest you can swipe down from the top of the screen single-handedly or reach buttons and icons at the top of the screen without it? The screen is as tall or taller than the 7 Plus and there’s no way that’s possible. I use reachability on my 7 Plus all the time! I also use Control Centre very frequently and with ease single-handedy on my 7 Plus, so I’d its not as easy on the X that’s another strike against the new phone.

The home button was such an elegant solution with which you could achieve so much. It also had great tactile feedback, especially on the iphone 7 (and now 8). The application switcher and Siri activation do not look easier on the X.

The screen may be taller than the Plus's screen, but the device is significantly smaller. I have a 7 Plus I've used for the past year, and this past week I've been using a 6s to get a feel for the smaller size again. Might not be for all people, but reaching the top of the device (4.7" 6s) feels very easy.

I am also curious how pulling down Control Centre will feel. I'm going to miss it from the bottom I think.

 

[phobos512]

You all are high if you think the average user even gives a damn about the change from TouchID to FaceID. The millions upon millions of people who use the iPhone without thinking about anything other than "it's pretty and feels good in my hand and my iMessages are blue instead of green" don't give a rat's ass, and they're not posting in this forum. We forumgoers have almost zero effect on Apple's bottom line. That's the reality.

And oh by the way you're all being a bunch of luddites - "New thing I've not even used is clearly worse than old thing that mostly works ok." *lights torch* If there hadn't been a hiccup during the demo you'd all be embracing this. Hiccups happen. I still OFTEN as in on a daily basis have to reposition my finger to get TouchID to work. Not every time I use it but it's definitely at least once or twice a day. The beautiful thing about FaceID is they can upgrade it's capabilities with simple software updates; the camera is proven technology, it's the algorithms alone that will need revision. And that's EASY to fix on Apple products because everyone gets the updates whenever Apple says, not when the software developer says oops I mean the OEM says oops I mean the carrier says oops I mean never.
[doublepost=1505346263][/doublepost]

So if I break my nose, I'm locked out of my phone forever?

Yep, if you break your nose and the muggers cut off all your fingers and your tongue so you can neither directly enter your passcode, or tell it to someone else, you'll be locked out forever. Sorry. I know that's a very common concern.

 

[profets]

You all are high if you think the average user even gives a damn about the change from TouchID to FaceID. The millions upon millions of people who use the iPhone without thinking about anything other than "it's pretty and feels good in my hand and my iMessages are blue instead of green" don't give a rat's ass, and they're not posting in this forum. We forumgoers have almost zero effect on Apple's bottom line. That's the reality.

And oh by the way you're all being a bunch of luddites - "New thing I've not even used is clearly worse than old thing that mostly works ok." *lights torch* If there hadn't been a hiccup during the demo you'd all be embracing this. Hiccups happen. I still OFTEN as in on a daily basis have to reposition my finger to get TouchID to work. Not every time I use it but it's definitely at least once or twice a day. The beautiful thing about FaceID is they can upgrade it's capabilities with simple software updates; the camera is proven technology, it's the algorithms alone that will need revision. And that's EASY to fix on Apple products because everyone gets the updates whenever Apple says, not when the software developer says oops I mean the OEM says oops I mean the carrier says oops I mean never.
[doublepost=1505346263][/doublepost]

Yep, if you break your nose and the muggers cut off all your fingers and your tongue so you can neither directly enter your passcode, or tell it to someone else, you'll be locked out forever. Sorry. I know that's a very common concern.

That brings up an interesting point. So frequently I see people using iPhones with a passcode or no security at all, both because they can't stand Touch ID. I always felt that was a bit ridiculous for such a personal device but so many people can't be bothered.

 

[Pbrutto]

I'll believe it when I see it. An incorrect scan once a week is enough of a convenience for me to never purchase.

Wow, I thought I was anal.....

 

[simonmet]

The screen may be taller than the Plus's screen, but the device is significantly smaller. I have a 7 Plus I've used for the past year, and this past week I've been using a 6s to get a feel for the smaller size again. Might not be for all people, but reaching the top of the device (4.7" 6s) feels very easy.

I am also curious how pulling down Control Centre will feel. I'm going to miss it from the bottom I think.

You may be right. I guess it’s something I’ll have to try in-store first to see if it works for me. I didn’t buy the 7 Plus until I was convinced Reachability made the size of the device manageable. I couldn’t live without it on the Plus size.

I certainly won’t be preordering the X even if I could afford to! Not until many of the questions and concerns raised in this thread have been answered anyway.

 

[TheeDanielR]

But then what are you doing todo once it's unlocked without your hands ? Start Siri ? Need to push a button. Answer a call ? Need to touch a button. Etc etc.

Gesture control is coming. You’ll wave your hands and yes use Siri. She’s getting smarter. It’ll all makes sense in the future.
[doublepost=1505346880][/doublepost]

It’s not about perfecting it really, it’s just not the same category of identification and it’s not a replacement without downsides. I think it would be a better replacement if the iPhone X UI was better, for starters slide to unlock (from right to left) would be easier.

Yea I ageee. Maybe iOS 12 revamp it. Or iOS 11.3

 

[flat five]

faceID on macs > touchID on macs

..lots of other instances down the road will be similar in comparisons.. (doors, cars, digi assistants, etc.)

--------
the naysayers now are just resistant to change.. it's a personality trait.. more than half of the population carries the trait..
if people weren't resisting this change, THAT would be weird.

they'll come around.. doesn't make too much sense to argue with them today.

 

[hr10]

I wonder if it will work with sunglassss on??