Apple's Phil Schiller and Anand Shimpi Provide Insight Into A12X Chip in New iPad Pro Models

[mi7chy]

I replaced my car with a bike. I bought a bike and got rid of my car. To me, a bike is a perfectly workable car "replacement". Just because I still have both options (alternatives), doesn't mean I can't call my bike a car replacement if that's exactly what it is.

No, he's right. A bicycle doesn't replace a car and a car doesn't replace an airplane. A bicycle is a replacement for a different form of transportation. If we lower ourselves to believe that then people will be claiming that the moon replaces the sun since it floats in the sky and glows.

 

[Freida]

The iPad is literally a computer. Anything outside the actual definition is bias / preference.




The upcoming Photoshop is a full-fledged version, not crippled. The absence of Final Cut and Premier Pro are not because it lacks the power, but rather because the programs can't be compiled to run as their code exists. Different architectures require different programming. So either they haven't adapted the code as necessary, or they haven't released it yet.

Even my iPhone is a computer but it doesn't fit the definition we are used to. Lets not play with words here, shall we?

 

[x-evil-x]

Lol that was a good laugh. Thanks for that. You actually think availability of chips is the number one thing holding back Mac refreshes? Well, here's the truth for you. Chip availability is not even on the list of reasons why Apple waits so long between Mac refreshes. They do it because of their ego, plain and simple.
[doublepost=1541621846][/doublepost]
Serious meaning coding? There are plenty of careers where it's possible to get all your work done just fine with "only" an iPad. Your serious work and someone else's serious work aren't the same thing.

I can’t trade stocks on an iPad. Not quickly.

 

[Freida]

Now you want to argue over word definitions? Come on man, what happened to that professional debate ethic you were bragging about earlier? Oh well, we're down to the definitions, so let's do this.

I replaced my car with a bike. I bought a bike and got rid of my car. To me, a bike is a perfectly workable car "replacement". Just because I still have both options (alternatives), doesn't mean I can't call my bike a car replacement if that's exactly what it is. Of course there are many different alternative transportation options, but the word replacement works just as good if that's what's actually happening.

Apple isn't trying to say the iPad is literally the next step up from all the PC's and servers the whole world has been running on for the last 30 years. They are saying that for you (obviously not you specifically, but their target customer), this new iPad is a very capable machine and it could even work as a PC replacement. They're not stupid. They know it can't do everything a PC can do, but they're not claiming it can. They're simply saying this can work as a PC replacement. They're not lying. It actually can and does work just fine as a PC replacement for lots of people.

Basically, if someone replaces their PC with an iPad, by definition it is a PC replacement in that case. The number of alternatives available doesn't really matter.

yes, it can do and it does for some people, but the point most of us here are trying to say is that if you go to iPad you are willing to make a lot of sacrifices and therefore it shouldn't really be called computer in the first place.
I have both and i use iPad more during the day but there is no way it can replace my computer. The reason is not the hardware but the software. And this is exactly the whole point of the debate here. iOS is improving as someone quoted me but its not improving fast enough (unlike the person said) and it still so far away that we have to wait and actually even see if Apple will take it where it needs to be and make it the computer it can be.

Apple doesn't always make good choices which can be shown even now on MacOS so its unlikely that iPad will be on the super right path. Just look how long it took them to implement folders and its still half baked.

The easiest way to bridge this would be to allow installing full MacOS for pro users. Of course it would be another compromise but it would bridge it. (Default would be iOS of course but the ability to unlock MacOS would be huge)
I could install Zbrush, Maya whatever I would want and use it straight away without waiting whether or not the developer will port it.

iOS needs work - thats the bottom line. It doesn't have to go the same way as MacOS and it can be adjusted for the future and modern way but it needs to improve. Right now, its perfect for iPhones but its half baked for iPads.
Simple as that.

 

[redneckitengineer]

Now you want to argue over word definitions? Come on man, what happened to that professional debate ethic you were bragging about earlier? Oh well, we're down to the definitions, so let's do this.

I replaced my car with a bike. I bought a bike and got rid of my car. To me, a bike is a perfectly workable car "replacement". Just because I still have both options (alternatives), doesn't mean I can't call my bike a car replacement if that's exactly what it is. Of course there are many different alternative transportation options, but the word replacement works just as good if that's what's actually happening.

Apple isn't trying to say the iPad is literally the next step up from all the PC's and servers the whole world has been running on for the last 30 years. They are saying that for you (obviously not you specifically, but their target customer), this new iPad is a very capable machine and it could even work as a PC replacement. They're not stupid. They know it can't do everything a PC can do, but they're not claiming it can. They're simply saying this can work as a PC replacement. They're not lying. It actually can and does work just fine as a PC replacement for lots of people.

Basically, if someone replaces their PC with an iPad, by definition it is a PC replacement in that case. The number of alternatives available doesn't really matter.

Apple quote, “The new iPad Pro is faster than 90% of PCs shipped in 2018.” https://venturebeat.com/2018/10/30/...n-8-core-gpu-90-better-multicore-performance/
So why would they release such a statistic if it wasn’t pushing that it’s mission was to replace said devices?

Word definitions are factual, and it’s hard to debate against a fact. It’s quite professional to use words that can be backed by facts.

I too have a motorcycle, but we cannot carry groceries (easily), we cannot enclose ourselves from foul weather, and we cannot be as protected in an accident. When you have a defective device, do you go to the store and expect a replacement of the same model or accept something with less features at the same price? You demand same as... so while my motorcycle does get me from A to B in the same manner as a car, it does not function as the same and is an alternative. Because if it were the same, why need a special motorcycle license, insurance, gear, etc.... because well it’s a car replacement?

I myself have an iPad Pro as my sole “PC”, and I made sacrifices to switch. Therefore I consider my iPad an alternative, as I downgraded my MBP features for a device that’s “faster than a laptop.”

 

[IG88]

Windows can up to 2gs of ram without any users apps running!

You obviously haven't used Win 8 / 8.1 / 10. Microsoft completely reworked the kernel starting with 8. My PC doesn't use anywhere near 2 GB without any apps running.

 

[omihek]

I can’t trade stocks on an iPad. Not quickly.

So you can't trade stocks on an iPad or you can but not quickly?

 

[IG88]

In what way does iOS cripple YOU?

I was at a friend's house out of town, and wanted to watch a movie I had on my home NAS. So I downloaded it to my iPad over LTE using the Synology iOS file app.

Now the fun began trying to figure out a way to get the movie onto his media PC.

It was a huge pain in the ass. Luckily I had a real computer with me (MacBook Air). I had to end up using Airdrop to transfer the file to my MBA which has things like actual ports and a real filesystem, so I could use a USB flash drive to play the movie on his media system. But of course you can't just Airdrop from any app to a Mac. So I had to transfer the file to iCloud Drive first.

Yay not having a real filesystem!!!! But yeah, keep on telling me that an iOS isn't a crippled OS.
[doublepost=1541631739][/doublepost]

A lot more people would be spending $2000 on an iPad today if they developed XCode and Final Cut Pro for the iPad.

I'm sure they have those apps in house. They haven't figured out a way to keep the iPad from melting yet when running them.

 

[omihek]

Apple quote, “The new iPad Pro is faster than 90% of PCs shipped in 2018.” https://venturebeat.com/2018/10/30/...n-8-core-gpu-90-better-multicore-performance/
So why would they release such a statistic if it wasn’t pushing that it’s mission was to replace said devices?

Word definitions are factual, and it’s hard to debate against a fact. It’s quite professional to use words that can be backed by facts.

I too have a motorcycle, but we cannot carry groceries (easily), we cannot enclose ourselves from foul weather, and we cannot be as protected in an accident. When you have a defective device, do you go to the store and expect a replacement of the same model or accept something with less features at the same price? You demand same as... so while my motorcycle does get me from A to B in the same manner as a car, it does not function as the same and is an alternative. Because if it were the same, why need a special motorcycle license, insurance, gear, etc.... because well it’s a car replacement?

I myself have an iPad Pro as my sole “PC”, and I made sacrifices to switch. Therefore I consider my iPad an alternative, as I downgraded my MBP features for a device that’s “faster than a laptop.”

This bolded part right here is exactly what I'm talking about. Apple knows it doesn't do everything that a PC does. They're not claiming it can. For someone who doesn't need to carry groceries (maybe they live close enough to walk to a grocery store) or someone who lives in a warm climate all year, a motorcycle can genuinely be a car replacement. I wouldn't advise all the mothers with children to replace their cars with a bike, but that's a totally different use case. All I'm saying is that the iPad can be a PC replacement for some people. Not all people, and maybe not even most people, but the truth is it is a viable PC replacement (not giving up that word) for some use cases.

Also, saying that it's a fast machine doesn't mean they're pushing some sort of alternate agenda. They're just saying it's fast. PC's have been the measurement of processing speed up to this point, so it makes sense to compare it to that. If they said the iPhone was as fast as current PC's no one would think they were trying to push iPhone as a PC replacement.

Last point. Apple is specifically targeting the people that the iPad can be a PC replacement for; that's why they're saying that. It's just them marketing to their target audience.

 

[x-evil-x]

So you can't trade stocks on an iPad or you can but not quickly?

It’s very hard to do technical analysis and trading quickly on anything touch screen. I wouidnt ever use an iPad to day trade.

 

[threesixty360]

You obviously haven't used Win 8 / 8.1 / 10. Microsoft completely reworked the kernel starting with 8. My PC doesn't use anywhere near 2 GB without any apps running.

Yes thats true. When they rewrote the kernel windows became far more efficient. But that’s still only as good as what you run on it. If you have anti virus running to some other big programs they take resources away in the background. iOS doesn’t allow for a lot of that so it’s still more efficient by design than any desktop OS.

I mean, one program can crash and freeze your whole OS on mac/windows. Even in 2018! That never happens on iOS.

 

[criticasm]

Shame this comment is not treated as spam that results in instaban.

iPad is possible because of iOS, not limited by it. The shame is that we have to listen to people repost and repost and repost and repost and repost and repost this same tired nonsense that has not an ounce of truth in it.

Meanwhile your comment is Apple cultist adding sugar to the Kool-aid 'cause some are finding it a lil bitter. Saying folks should be banned for having an opinion is hysterical & not in the funny way.

iOS was made from OSX. It was a paired down "light" version because of the limitations of early mobile hardware. Which it turn made it a simplistic OS with limited flexibility. Over the last 11 years as hardware has improved so has iOS, but it's still pretty rigid. Now they're bragging their hardware has not only caught up, but exceeds some OG tech. So why aren't we getting a full on operating system if they're telling us these devices are now full on machines???

 

[ghost187]

I was at a friend's house out of town, and wanted to watch a movie I had on my home NAS. So I downloaded it to my iPad over LTE using the Synology iOS file app.

Now the fun began trying to figure out a way to get the movie onto his media PC.

It was a huge pain in the ass. Luckily I had a real computer with me (MacBook Air). I had to end up using Airdrop to transfer the file to my MBA which has things like actual ports and a real filesystem, so I could use a USB flash drive to play the movie on his media system. But of course you can't just Airdrop from any app to a Mac. So I had to transfer the file to iCloud Drive first.

Yay not having a real filesystem!!!! But yeah, keep on telling me that an iOS isn't a crippled OS.
[doublepost=1541631739][/doublepost]

I'm sure they have those apps in house. They haven't figured out a way to keep the iPad from melting yet when running them.

I was at a friend's house out of town, and wanted to watch a movie I had on my home NAS. So I downloaded it to my iPad over LTE using the Synology iOS file app.

Now the fun began trying to figure out a way to get the movie onto his media PC.

It was a huge pain in the ass. Luckily I had a real computer with me (MacBook Air). I had to end up using Airdrop to transfer the file to my MBA which has things like actual ports and a real filesystem, so I could use a USB flash drive to play the movie on his media system. But of course you can't just Airdrop from any app to a Mac. So I had to transfer the file to iCloud Drive first.

Yay not having a real filesystem!!!! But yeah, keep on telling me that an iOS isn't a crippled OS.
[doublepost=1541631739][/doublepost]

I'm sure they have those apps in house. They haven't figured out a way to keep the iPad from melting yet when running them.

Even a 12” MacBook with core M processors can handle those apps without melting so I don’t see why this beast of a processor in the new iPads would melt. Why should Adobe and other big name companies bring the desktop class apps to the iPad if Apple isn’t doing it themselves. I bought the “original” iPad because Steve introduced it with the iWork apps. The 2 Apps that would make a world of difference is XCode and Final Cut Pro. Logic Studio would be a plus, and many would pop champagne if they brought back Aperture for the iPad.

 

[mi7chy]

I mean, one program can crash and freeze your whole OS on mac/windows. Even in 2018! That never happens on iOS.

Except it does.

https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...hones-to-become-unresponsive-updated.2149228/

 

[prasand]

Even my iPhone is a computer but it doesn't fit the definition we are used to. Lets not play with words here, shall we?

You are correct, your phone is in fact a computer. He projected a biased perception of what a computer is, and claimed the iPad isn't a computer, when it factually is.

What is debatable is if it's really a laptop replacement. Similarly it's debatable if a laptop really is a desktop replacement. I imagine many gamers would disagree.

But on the topic of it being a computer, that's a fact.

It would be like someone saying the earth is flat, and using bubble levels to justify it. One can see the essence of what they are saying, but they can still be corrected.

 

[Abazigal]

I think you missed his point here. What he meant (I believe) is that iOS doesn't take full advantage of the power and its kinda crippled as iOS was designed for iPhone at the start and it hasn't developed that much for the use in iPad Pros.
The reason, why people say these comments is because its kinda true. iOS needs to evolve and needs to evolve fast if they really want iPad Pros to be real computers.
Yes, you can do a lot on an iPad but no, you can't really call it a computer (yet) because of its limitation that is in the iOS.

Oh, the iPad will evolve.

I guess we disagree on the direction it should go, and I don’t feel it’s a step forward to make the iPad more like a legacy desktop system in that regard.

 

[Gameboy70]

Apple marketing chief Phil Schiller and Apple chip expert Anand Shimpi, who created AnandTech

So what's his title at Apple?

 

[redneckitengineer]

This bolded part right here is exactly what I'm talking about. Apple knows it doesn't do everything that a PC does. They're not claiming it can. For someone who doesn't need to carry groceries (maybe they live close enough to walk to a grocery store) or someone who lives in a warm climate all year, a motorcycle can genuinely be a car replacement. I wouldn't advise all the mothers with children to replace their cars with a bike, but that's a totally different use case. All I'm saying is that the iPad can be a PC replacement for some people. Not all people, and maybe not even most people, but the truth is it is a viable PC replacement (not giving up that word) for some use cases.

Also, saying that it's a fast machine doesn't mean they're pushing some sort of alternate agenda. They're just saying it's fast. PC's have been the measurement of processing speed up to this point, so it makes sense to compare it to that. If they said the iPhone was as fast as current PC's no one would think they were trying to push iPhone as a PC replacement.

Last point. Apple is specifically targeting the people that the iPad can be a PC replacement for; that's why they're saying that. It's just them marketing to their target audience.

Hey, I’ve got a Ferrari race car to sell you. It’s super fast, looks like a hot date. But it’s got one problem... there’s no gas made for it. So you can say you look cool, have everyone stare at it in your garage, but you can’t ever drive it....

The above is how Apple is marketing the iPad Pro Gen 3. Hands down.

I would agree 100% with your statement if you called it an alternative, but gosh darn it’s not a replacement. It’s a tablet, not a PC. It was born as a tablet with a mobile OS and it’s still a tablet with a mobile OS. Until it moves up to having a full fledge operating system it is NOT a replacement but an alternative for those who do not need those functions. Painting an orange red doesn’t make it an Apple.

 

[mi7chy]

So what's his title at Apple?

Anand Shimpi, Apple Chief of Propaganda

 

[IG88]

Even a 12” MacBook with core M processors can handle those apps without melting so I don’t see why this beast of a processor in the new iPads would melt. Why should Adobe and other big name companies bring the desktop class apps to the iPad if Apple isn’t doing it themselves. I bought the “original” iPad because Steve introduced it with the iWork apps. The 2 Apps that would make a world of difference is XCode and Final Cut Pro. Logic Studio would be a plus, and many would pop champagne if they brought back Aperture for the iPad.

I was being facetious with the "melting" obviously. But seriously....trying to run a 30 minute compile in XCode or doing heavy video work in FCP would get the iPad hot enough to fry an egg. That's hard on everything, including the battery.

And I seriously doubt there are a significant number of people using a fanless MacBook with XCode or FCP and doing anything remotely serious with them. I mean sure, the MB can run XCode just fine if you're just doing "Hello World."

I didn't even like using my 2013 MacBook Air to do medium video transcoding (from MKV to MP4 with sound encoding) because of how much it stressed the CPU and how hot it got.

 

[ghost187]

I was being facetious with the "melting" obviously. But seriously....trying to run a 30 minute compile in XCode or doing heavy video work in FCP would get the iPad hot enough to fry an egg. That's hard on everything, including the battery.

And I seriously doubt there are a significant number of people using a fanless MacBook with XCode or FCP and doing anything remotely serious with them. I mean sure, the MB can run XCode just fine if you're just doing "Hello World."

I didn't even like using my 2013 MacBook Air to do medium video transcoding (from MKV to MP4 with sound encoding) because of how much it stressed the CPU and how hot it got.

I had the 1st gen 12” MacBook and I was able to do do my XCode and Android Studio work even though it got very hot and battery life suffered (max 2 hours), but it’s not my main computer. I remember Anandtech doing an analysis on mobile processors a few years ago and unlike Qualcomm, Apple A series chip were able to operate near peak level performance for long periods of time. The photoshop demo on Apple’s keynote with such a large file was very smooth and fast. Which shows the iPad can handle it. You’d be surprised how capable and powerful these iPads are software is the only thing holding them back.

 

[ipponrg]

I had the 1st gen 12” MacBook and I was able to do do my XCode and Android Studio work even though it got very hot and battery life suffered (max 2 hours), but it’s not my main computer. I remember Anandtech doing an analysis on mobile processors a few years ago and unlike Qualcomm, Apple A series chip were able to operate near peak level performance for long periods of time. The photoshop demo on Apple’s keynote with such a large file was very smooth and fast. Which shows the iPad can handle it. You’d be surprised how capable and powerful these iPads are software is the only thing holding them back.

I have a 15" 2018 MBP currently for work. If I run only Zoom conference calling with screen share, my battery life is about ~3 hours max. It does get super hot.

I also have a 10" 2017 iPad mini. If I run Zoom on that, that thing dies in 1.5 hours. I can't really multi-task on it due to the OS limitations. It also gets hot.

I would really like to see Apple create a full fledge OS experience on the iPad and let practical usage dictate if this form factor would work well for people in my position (coding and software architectures).

 

[IG88]

I had the 1st gen 12” MacBook and I was able to do do my XCode and Android Studio work even though it got very hot and battery life suffered (max 2 hours), but it’s not my main computer. I remember Anandtech doing an analysis on mobile processors a few years ago and unlike Qualcomm, Apple A series chip were able to operate near peak level performance for long periods of time. The photoshop demo on Apple’s keynote with such a large file was very smooth and fast. Which shows the iPad can handle it. You’d be surprised how capable and powerful these iPads are software is the only thing holding them back.

I should have explained myself better perhaps. You can load the iPad Pro for extended periods of time, but just like your fanless Core-M, it's going to get very hot. And with something like an iPad that has very little dead airspace, that heat is going into everything, especially the battery. An iPad isn't a device I want running up to thermal limits for any length of time, as I want it and the battery to actually last.

I'd like to see some temperature measurements after pegging the CPU / GPU for an extended period. I'd imagine they won't be pretty.

 

[Tech198]

So, we have shifted from "Using cores when needed" to "using all cores regardless" just to make to seem faster ? even if the app does' t support it?

Just because apps "must take advantage of more than one core to be useful" on Mac, shouldn't transition over to tablets as well, unless i'm missing some magical stuff Apple does.

eg. Handbrake, video editors and Adobe products would make use of more cores, but your basic app on the mac won't as not all apps need it

Is Phil saying "we will use all cores on the A12x" regardless if apps support it or not, because we care more about performance or a tablet?

 

[Freida]

You are correct, your phone is in fact a computer. He projected a biased perception of what a computer is, and claimed the iPad isn't a computer, when it factually is.

What is debatable is if it's really a laptop replacement. Similarly it's debatable if a laptop really is a desktop replacement. I imagine many gamers would disagree.

But on the topic of it being a computer, that's a fact.

It would be like someone saying the earth is flat, and using bubble levels to justify it. One can see the essence of what they are saying, but they can still be corrected.

It is not a computer. What I meant was that yes, it is computer by definition that it has a chip etc. but it is not like a computer that a lot of us refer to it. You can't even change the fonts, icon sizes or even fit more/less icons in one row. Its super closed system that is controlled by Apple and Apple only. A "real" computer (Windows, Linux, MacOS) allow you to customize, install stuff etc. That is what people mean when they say a computer (reason being as everything is a computer these days - even a fridge but not everything IS a computer). iPad is an extension or a complimentary device to a computer but it shouldn't be defined as a computer in the language we talk here. We can be nitpicky here and argue about word definition but the underlining message is the same for a lot of people. iPad is simply not ready to replace traditional computers. Yes, it can work for some people but thats where it ends. In fact, developers need "real" computers to code for iOS so that is probably the best example why iPad is not a computer.

Regardless, the new one is simply a beast. I look forward to have it at home as I plan to use it for some nice features.