Apple's Phil Schiller Discusses Risks of Alternative App Stores on iPhone

[makitango]

Um, re-read what I actually wrote...

Android PHONES has software installed by user and it brought our work email system down. multiple times.
IT guys tracked down the phone by log in times.
located the app.
then locked down the network with stronger security to stop things happening again.

So you say. Doesn't mean that it actually happened.
Also, if a participant phone's app can cause your network to suffer, your network is neither secure nor robust. You can thank that person that the IT department actually had to do something that was long overdue.

And if your company does not use MDM for internal communications, it's already a recipe for disaster. Different clients and/or devices can cause network issues simply by different protocols not being compatible with one another, it has zero to do with malware.

Your IT department should be on top of this as it is very basic network stuff. Obviously the department isn't up for the task.

this is the future of bad apps. you dont want Apple checking alt app store apps. you want to load anything you can.

This is not the future of "bad" apps. We live with sideloaded apps on macOS and it's perfectly safe with notarization, as Apple said. Here, a reminder:

Download apps safely from the Mac App Store. And the internet.​

Now apps from both the App Store and the internet can be installed worry-free. App Review makes sure each app in the App Store is reviewed before it’s accepted. Gatekeeper on your Mac ensures that all apps from the internet have already been checked by Apple for known malicious code — before you run them the first time. If there’s ever a problem with an app, Apple can quickly stop new installations and even block the app from launching again.

This completely negates all what Apple's anti-EU comments are saying, or yours.

you can argue all you want

Which is what you do. We just lay out the facts by directly quoting Apple and the EU commission. You neither represent either of those (or not officially) nor EU citizens.

(and you are a very small group doing it on a tech site).

Are we? I only see pro-EU comments getting removed, that makes this "vote" as democratic and transparent as Eastern Ukrainian referendums.

explain why you dont just go Android and load whatever?
surely that environment suits you better. already...

Does macOS stop being an Apple product in your eyes just because it has sideloading?

Your rhetoric is one way to reduce iOS to a censored App Store with anti-competitive practices and sentencing adults to lifetime training wheels.


The only threat to security breaches and data violation is and always will be the user. Do you use iMessage or Whatsapp? You are transferring the personal information of everyone in your contact book to a third-party company (Apple or Meta) without asking for the consent of the people in your contact book.

People do that on not just these two companies, but countless ones. All of our data is swimming around on the internet because no one cares whom they share the data of others with.

The only dangerous apps are the ones in the App Store because Apple made enough people believe that it's a safe place, while they have the same safety checks as every other app.
If a malicious app slips through, people have their defenses down because it's the oh-so-secure App Store. If they download from the internet directly or from a marketplace, they are already more careful.
This is the true issue here which is why it is mandatory now, more than ever since Apple sparked hysteria, that they finally do code reviews on apps on the App Store.

 

[I7guy]

So you say. Doesn't mean that it actually happened.
Also, if a participant phone's app can cause your network to suffer, your network is neither secure nor robust. You can thank that person that the IT department actually had to do something that was long overdue.

And if your company does not use MDM for internal communications, it's already a recipe for disaster. Different clients and/or devices can cause network issues simply by different protocols not being compatible with one another, it has zero to do with malware.

Your IT department should be on top of this as it is very basic network stuff. Obviously the department isn't up for the task.

This is not the future of "bad" apps. We live with sideloaded apps on macOS and it's perfectly safe with notarization, as Apple said. Here, a reminder:

This completely negates all what Apple's anti-EU comments are saying, or yours.

Which is what you do. We just lay out the facts by directly quoting Apple and the EU commission. You neither represent either of those (or not officially) nor EU citizens.

Are we? I only see pro-EU comments getting removed, that makes this "vote" as democratic and transparent as Eastern Ukrainian referendums.

Does macOS stop being an Apple product in your eyes just because it has sideloading?

Your rhetoric is one way to reduce iOS to a censored App Store with anti-competitive practices and sentencing adults to lifetime training wheels.


The only threat to security breaches and data violation is and always will be the user. Do you use iMessage or Whatsapp? You are transferring the personal information of everyone in your contact book to a third-party company (Apple or Meta) without asking for the consent of the people in your contact book.

People do that on not just these two companies, but countless ones. All of our data is swimming around on the internet because no one cares whom they share the data of others with.

The only dangerous apps are the ones in the App Store because Apple made enough people believe that it's a safe place, while they have the same safety checks as every other app.
If a malicious app slips through, people have their defenses down because it's the oh-so-secure App Store. If they download from the internet directly or from a marketplace, they are already more careful.
This is the true issue here which is why it is mandatory now, more than ever since Apple sparked hysteria, that they finally do code reviews on apps on the App Store.

Throw the baby out with the bath water mentality that is very prevalent here.

 

[makitango]

Throw the baby out with the bath water mentality that is very prevalent here.

It would be great if we could stay on topic. The fact is that Apple assures security in their marketing material with the notarization of apps and screening of their code.
Their PR statements solely against the EU tries to make people forget about that and they claim the opposite.
They are thus lying. You cannot have it both ways. It's a very simple and logical concept.

 

[I7guy]

It would be great if we could stay on topic.

It would be great if people would stop taking an exception case and making it the normal case.

The fact is that Apple assures security in their marketing material with the notarization of apps and screening of their code.

The point

Their PR statements solely against the EU tries to make people forget about that and they claim the opposite.
They are thus lying. You cannot have it both ways. It's a very simple and logical concept.

It’s a concept known as throwing the baby out with the bath water. Also called spin.

 

[makitango]

It would be great if people would stop taking an exception case and making it the normal case.

Where is an exception?

The point

Indeed.

It’s a concept known as throwing the baby out with the bath water. Also called spin.

If there is anyone spinning it, it is Apple, saying two opposite things on the same subject, on the same specific, because it is convenient for them, trying to make people forget very basic things.


Also, regarding the attachment: Have fun, Apple. Not that I would be the only one raising the issue, obviously. There are bigger players whose money would be kept from Apple, or who simply still can't provide apps in the way they wanted to distribute them.

 

[Hails09]

ever tried getting rid of Temu once you download app and give away your email and phone number?

it all looks legit to start with...

and friends have installed and regretted it very quickly ...

Nah we don’t download that stuff

 

[I7guy]

Where is an exception?

Indeed.

If there is anyone spinning it, it is Apple, saying two opposite things on the same subject, on the same specific, because it is convenient for them, trying to make people forget very basic things.


Also, regarding the attachment: Have fun, Apple. Not that I would be the only one raising the issue, obviously. There are bigger players whose money would be kept from Apple, or who simply still can't provide apps in the way they wanted to distribute them.

No matter the spin, iOS with something north of two billion devices is a fertile ground for phishware, scamware and the like.

Apple isn’t spinning anything - the MR posters are spinning by conflating what is said about different platforms and then leaving out parts of sentences.

 

[makitango]

No matter the spin, iOS with something north of two billion devices is a fertile ground for phishware, scamware and the like.

Yes. Because it can receive email, SMS and calls, and people enter their credentials.
Also, north of 2 billion and you still try to make us think it's not dominating the market.

Apple isn’t spinning anything - the MR posters are spinning by conflating what is said about different platforms and then leaving out parts of sentences.

Riiiight. We leave out sentences. Where exactly?


After 7 March, we will all know who left out sentences when the EU commission will decide whether or not Apple complied. If they didn't, good for us. The lawsuit will bring some money home.

 

[I7guy]

Yes. Because it can receive email, SMS and calls, and people enter their credentials.
Also, north of 2 billion and you still try to make us think it's not dominating the market.

Um 2 billion is a lot right? But android has more. So “it’s” not dominating the market. It’s just extremely popular.

Riiiight. We leave out sentences. Where exactly?

The way you’re attempting to lump every apple platform under one roof in terms of functionality.

After 7 March, we will all know who left out sentences when the EU commission will decide whether or not Apple complied. If they didn't, good for us. The lawsuit will bring some money home.

Well good luck with the lawsuit. I think the EU will get exactly what it asked for.

 

[makitango]

Um 2 billion is a lot right? But android has more. So “it’s” not dominating the market. It’s just extremely popular.

You don't need to be #1 in order to be dominating.

The way you’re attempting to lump every apple platform under one roof in terms of functionality.

Wrong. Did I ask for split-screen on iOS? Nope. Therefore debunked.

Well good luck with the lawsuit. I think the EU will get exactly what it asked for.

We'll see about that.

 

[I7guy]

You don't need to be #1 in order to be dominating.

I understand. Based on your definition of a market. Manufacturer or operating system. Either way apple barely makes it world wide.

Wrong. Did I ask for split-screen on iOS? Nope. Therefore debunked.

Doesn’t matter what YOU asked for.

We'll see about that.

Yes we will.

 

[makitango]

I understand. Based on your definition of a market. Manufacturer or operating system. Either way apple barely makes it world wide.

Not just on my definition, as evidenced by the EU.

Apple "makes it" quite successfully, worldwide.

Doesn’t matter what YOU asked for.

Not to you. Evidently, to the EU it does, as evidenced in my attachment. And it matters to others here who are not just an echo of Apple's EU cursing. I did not say Apple's PR because Apple's own PR already debunked their executive's arguments.

 

[I7guy]

Not just on my definition, as evidenced by the EU.

The EU threaded the needle in order to call apple a gatekeeper:

Apple "makes it" quite successfully, worldwide.

Doesn’t mean it’s dominant. Influential? Sure.

Not to you. Evidently, to the EU it does, as evidenced in my attachment. And it matters to others here who are not just an echo of Apple's EU cursing. I did not say Apple's PR because Apple's own PR already debunked their executive's arguments.

It matters to the critics in what you are saying. It matters to the eu who did this needle threading. It’s very important for those who see this as a huge failure of theneunto innovate and therefore they legally steal. What you see as debunked is just some spin.

 

[makitango]

The EU threaded the needle in order to call apple a gatekeeper:

Do you always draw up apocalyptic pictures on the wall for something as simple as regulation, which happens everywhere on the world?

Doesn’t mean it’s dominant. Influential? Sure.

You don't seem to understand the word. Dominance means that you can assert control over others. Which is what Apple can and does here.
It matters little who else expresses dominance, although others who do that on such a scale as Apple (more, and even less) are designated gatekeepers as well.
Apple is not singled out here, and you know it. Everyone knows it. There is a good list of companies which everyone knows.

If one person kills 100 people and another kills 84, they are both mass killers.

It matters to the critics in what you are saying. It matters to the eu who did this needle threading. It’s very important for those who see this as a huge failure of theneunto innovate and therefore they legally steal. What you see as debunked is just some spin.

The EU did not do any needle threading, and you just repeating it doesn't make it any more true. It's like the engineers at Chernobyl all repeating the TL saying "just 3.6 roentgen" or "core didn't explode and all the debris lying around and burning isn't graphite".
I don't think that you believe what you say here. And if you don't, I'm sorry for you.

And there is no spin. Apple said it's safe, on their own website, and they say the opposite to the commission. That is designated as lie, everywhere in the world, not just in the EU.

 

[Samplasion]

The EU threaded the needle in order to call apple a gatekeeper

Apple phones make up 33% of the whole smartphone market in Europe, more than any other vendor.

 

[I7guy]

Apple phones make up 33% of the whole smartphone market in Europe, more than any other vendor.

Wait, now it’s by vendor? What happened to operating system?

 

[I7guy]

Do you always draw up apocalyptic pictures on the wall for something as simple as regulation, which happens everywhere on the world?

You don't seem to understand the word. Dominance means that you can assert control over others. Which is what Apple can and does here.
It matters little who else expresses dominance, although others who do that on such a scale as Apple (more, and even less) are designated gatekeepers as well.
Apple is not singled out here, and you know it. Everyone knows it. There is a good list of companies which everyone knows.

If one person kills 100 people and another kills 84, they are both mass killers.

The EU did not do any needle threading, and you just repeating it doesn't make it any more true. It's like the engineers at Chernobyl all repeating the TL saying "just 3.6 roentgen" or "core didn't explode and all the debris lying around and burning isn't graphite".
I don't think that you believe what you say here. And if you don't, I'm sorry for you.

And there is no spin. Apple said it's safe, on their own website, and they say the opposite to the commission. That is designated as lie, everywhere in the world, not just in the EU.

I don’t suppose our opinions will ever get in the same universe but that’s what makes these discussions so much fun.

1. I am opinionated in bad legislation in the proper forum and this is a prime example
2. You keep taking around d in circles about dominance but apple is influential there is a big difference. But I have no problem with “dominance”. It’s a good thing not a bad thing.
3. Another spot on analogy /s
4. And finally the EU did plenty of needle threading as I’ve posited in prior posts.
5. Stop with the spin already.

 

[makitango]

I don’t suppose our opinions will ever get in the same universe but that’s what makes these discussions so much fun.

1. I am opinionated in bad legislation in the proper forum and this is a prime example
2. You keep taking around d in circles about dominance but apple is influential there is a big difference. But I have no problem with “dominance”. It’s a good thing not a bad thing.

The only difference is that dominance is the case here. You not acknowledging it doesn't make it any less true. Please look up the word if you are unsure what it means and don't accuse others of not using it properly without proof.

3. Another spot on analogy /s

It is in fact spot on.

4. And finally the EU did plenty of needle threading as I’ve posited in prior posts.

The EU did nothing of the sort.

5. Stop with the spin already.

I did not spin anything, I just reposted what Apple said on their website, and it is in complete contrast to what Apple told the EU commission and keeps telling in interviews and on social media.

But as a kind reminder from their website:

Download apps safely from the Mac App Store. And the internet.​

Now apps from both the App Store and the internet can be installed worry-free. App Review makes sure each app in the App Store is reviewed before it’s accepted. Gatekeeper on your Mac ensures that all apps from the internet have already been checked by Apple for known malicious code — before you run them the first time. If there’s ever a problem with an app, Apple can quickly stop new installations and even block the app from launching again.

 

[I7guy]

The only difference is that dominance is the case here. You not acknowledging it doesn't make it any less true. Please look up the word if you are unsure what it means and don't accuse others of not using it properly without proof.

It is in fact spot on.

The EU did nothing of the sort.

I did not spin anything, I just reposted what Apple said on their website, and it is in complete contrast to what Apple told the EU commission and keeps telling in interviews and on social media.

But as a kind reminder from their website:

You keep bringing up Mac, you might as well discuss Windows as well. And because you don't agree about "needle threading" doesn't mean it is not the truth.

 

[wbeasley]

So you say. Doesn't mean that it actually happened.
Also, if a participant phone's app can cause your network to suffer, your network is neither secure nor robust. You can thank that person that the IT department actually had to do something that was long overdue.

And if your company does not use MDM for internal communications, it's already a recipe for disaster. Different clients and/or devices can cause network issues simply by different protocols not being compatible with one another, it has zero to do with malware.

Your IT department should be on top of this as it is very basic network stuff. Obviously the department isn't up for the task.

This is not the future of "bad" apps. We live with sideloaded apps on macOS and it's perfectly safe with notarization, as Apple said. Here, a reminder:

This completely negates all what Apple's anti-EU comments are saying, or yours.

Which is what you do. We just lay out the facts by directly quoting Apple and the EU commission. You neither represent either of those (or not officially) nor EU citizens.

Are we? I only see pro-EU comments getting removed, that makes this "vote" as democratic and transparent as Eastern Ukrainian referendums.

Does macOS stop being an Apple product in your eyes just because it has sideloading?

Your rhetoric is one way to reduce iOS to a censored App Store with anti-competitive practices and sentencing adults to lifetime training wheels.


The only threat to security breaches and data violation is and always will be the user. Do you use iMessage or Whatsapp? You are transferring the personal information of everyone in your contact book to a third-party company (Apple or Meta) without asking for the consent of the people in your contact book.

People do that on not just these two companies, but countless ones. All of our data is swimming around on the internet because no one cares whom they share the data of others with.

The only dangerous apps are the ones in the App Store because Apple made enough people believe that it's a safe place, while they have the same safety checks as every other app.
If a malicious app slips through, people have their defenses down because it's the oh-so-secure App Store. If they download from the internet directly or from a marketplace, they are already more careful.
This is the true issue here which is why it is mandatory now, more than ever since Apple sparked hysteria, that they finally do code reviews on apps on the App Store.

"so you say"??? really

that's your answer?

i tell you a concrete example of a bad app installed on Android phone.
it wasn't me that fixed it. everyone in the company knew our email was down for days.
everyone knew the memos from IT about not installing unknown software and the upgrade to our security.

pretty rude to question what I wrote because you dont believe it.

there are bad apps out there.
unvetted APKs can easily be loaded from an email link by the unwary.
that's Android for you. with freedom comes issues.

any app that slips through, Apple can stop from working by unsigning.
with millions of apps, and devious devs, there must be times dodgy code gets through.
no one says it's perfect. but at least they take action when it happens.

bottom line is you can run any app you want on Android.
no one is forcing you or any EU person to use an Apple device.
dont buy them. simple. the power of consumerism. vote with your wallet.

or use a side app loading system that lets you do what you want. if you must.

but dont get high and mighty about those of use who like the security we have now.

 

[wbeasley]

Nah we don’t download that stuff

trouble is that it sits there looking legit.

Wish too.
people install it or Like it on Facebook.
next thing you see posts saying your friends like these platforms and listing sex toys.
when you point that out to them they pretty quickly unlike the post

 

[makitango]

You keep bringing up Mac, you might as well discuss Windows as well. And because you don't agree about "needle threading" doesn't mean it is not the truth.

Windows is not from Apple. macOS is from Apple and uses the same notarization process, which ensures Apple's best security. Therefore, it is relevant and on topic.

"so you say"??? really

Of course. There were no facts backing that one up.

that's your answer?

As I said above.

i tell you a concrete example of a bad app installed on Android phone.
it wasn't me that fixed it. everyone in the company knew our email was down for days.
everyone knew the memos from IT about not installing unknown software and the upgrade to our security.

Can be the same with an email app from the App Store. one incompatible protocol/API and your network can end up in a loop.
This has nothing to do with it being malware or something, it's simply a bug or badly programmed. Apple does not hunt for bugs or improve code during App Review because the reviewers are not engineers.

pretty rude to question what I wrote because you dont believe it.

It's not rude to question the authenticity of a statement of someone you don't know and who can't back their points with actual data. It is not a basic right getting to expect everyone believe everythign you say. Just look at Phil. Stating the complete opposite on what is stated on the website.

there are bad apps out there.
unvetted APKs can easily be loaded from an email link by the unwary.
that's Android for you. with freedom comes issues.

It can't. Sideloading is not activated by default.

any app that slips through, Apple can stop from working by unsigning.
with millions of apps, and devious devs, there must be times dodgy code gets through.
no one says it's perfect. but at least they take action when it happens.

That happens to any notarized app, it is not exclusive to the App Store. Look here:

Download apps safely from the Mac App Store. And the internet.​

Now apps from both the App Store and the internet can be installed worry-free. App Review makes sure each app in the App Store is reviewed before it’s accepted. Gatekeeper on your Mac ensures that all apps from the internet have already been checked by Apple for known malicious code — before you run them the first time. If there’s ever a problem with an app, Apple can quickly stop new installations and even block the app from launching again.

bottom line is you can run any app you want on Android.
no one is forcing you or any EU person to use an Apple device.
dont buy them. simple. the power of consumerism. vote with your wallet.

We don't vote with our wallets, and we don't have to. We vote with our voice and that is why this regulation is in place. No one is forced to switch platforms when all platforms must abide the law.

What you describe is uncontrolled capitalism. It doesn't even exist in the US, or else there would still be Xaomi, and TikTok would have had no separate US entity.

or use a side app loading system that lets you do what you want. if you must.

I won't. I will use my devices as I want.

but dont get high and mighty about those of use who like the security we have now.

You don't have extra security. No one reviews the code of your app.

 

[I7guy]

Windows is not from Apple. macOS is from Apple and uses the same notarization process, which ensures Apple's best security. Therefore, it is relevant and on topic.

Of course. There were no facts backing that one up.

As I said above.

Can be the same with an email app from the App Store. one incompatible protocol/API and your network can end up in a loop.
This has nothing to do with it being malware or something, it's simply a bug or badly programmed. Apple does not hunt for bugs or improve code during App Review because the reviewers are not engineers.

It's not rude to question the authenticity of a statement of someone you don't know and who can't back their points with actual data. It is not a basic right getting to expect everyone believe everythign you say. Just look at Phil. Stating the complete opposite on what is stated on the website.

It can't. Sideloading is not activated by default.

That happens to any notarized app, it is not exclusive to the App Store. Look here:


We don't vote with our wallets, and we don't have to. We vote with our voice and that is why this regulation is in place. No one is forced to switch platforms when all platforms must abide the law.

What you describe is uncontrolled capitalism. It doesn't even exist in the US, or else there would still be Xaomi, and TikTok would have had no separate US entity.

I won't. I will use my devices as I want.

You don't have extra security. No one reviews the code of your app.

You are still conflating the platforms; since you're conflating the platforms might as well talk about Windows - which was my original point. Throw in Red Hat and Linux as well. Agree with Phil Schiller or not - nobody is changing anybody's mind on this topic - but he has valid points and we will see what comes to pass.

But it is already sealed, unless there are some surprises when ios 17.4 releases and then again when ios 18 releases. It is what it is.

 

[makitango]

You are still conflating the platforms

I am not "conflating" platforms. I am talking about a mechanism that is present on all Apple OS'. Notarization has the same functionality on iOS. Every developer who has distributed apps for testing knows that. Even non-developers know that.

since you're conflating the platforms might as well talk about Windows - which was my original point. Throw in Red Hat and Linux as well. Agree with Phil Schiller or not - nobody is changing anybody's mind on this topic - but he has valid points and we will see what comes to pass.

I did not conflate anything. Besides, he has not said any valid points since his points were already debunked by this:

Download apps safely from the Mac App Store. And the internet.​

Now apps from both the App Store and the internet can be installed worry-free. App Review makes sure each app in the App Store is reviewed before it’s accepted. Gatekeeper on your Mac ensures that all apps from the internet have already been checked by Apple for known malicious code — before you run them the first time. If there’s ever a problem with an app, Apple can quickly stop new installations and even block the app from launching again.

S I am not agreeing with Phil who obviously is a liar.

But it is already sealed, unless there are some surprises when ios 17.4 releases and then again when ios 18 releases. It is what it is.

Yes on this one. Can't wait to see Apple getting sued every month like the Netherlands sued Apple monthly on the Tinder fiasco.

 

[wbeasley]

Windows is not from Apple. macOS is from Apple and uses the same notarization process, which ensures Apple's best security. Therefore, it is relevant and on topic.

Of course. There were no facts backing that one up.

As I said above.

Can be the same with an email app from the App Store. one incompatible protocol/API and your network can end up in a loop.
This has nothing to do with it being malware or something, it's simply a bug or badly programmed. Apple does not hunt for bugs or improve code during App Review because the reviewers are not engineers.

It's not rude to question the authenticity of a statement of someone you don't know and who can't back their points with actual data. It is not a basic right getting to expect everyone believe everythign you say. Just look at Phil. Stating the complete opposite on what is stated on the website.

It can't. Sideloading is not activated by default.

That happens to any notarized app, it is not exclusive to the App Store. Look here:


We don't vote with our wallets, and we don't have to. We vote with our voice and that is why this regulation is in place. No one is forced to switch platforms when all platforms must abide the law.

What you describe is uncontrolled capitalism. It doesn't even exist in the US, or else there would still be Xaomi, and TikTok would have had no separate US entity.

I won't. I will use my devices as I want.

You don't have extra security. No one reviews the code of your app.

the arguments you make are getting more and more aggressive. tone it down.
we are discussing technology. you are attacking people for their views.

no one is stopping you using your devices how you want to.
jailbreak or sideload if you want to. ways exist.
but stop forcing your views on the rest of us.

in a democracy we all vote with our wallets.

you knew what Apple products were BEFORE you bought them.
same as i know what my TV or toaster are like.
we make informed decisions and take responsibility for them.