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Android is next for sure... Nokia is not going to hold still now that they won with Apple... they have a strong patent (its defendable) now and I'm sure are going to defend it.

I think most of the manufacturers who make Android phones are already licensees of Nokia's patents. They had all been making phones for many years before Apple entered the market so I can't see there being a problem for Android.

There were already 40 companies licensing the patents when Nokia started it's action against Apple in 2009.
 
You neglected one very important fact. That prior to any filings, the two companies had attempted to work out a deal. Nokia was tired of Apple's position and took it to court. Your extreme dislike of Apple makes you say this is Apple's fault, when in fact it is one of the most common scenarios in big business. Try relaxing for 10 seconds, it might help.

Please explain this. I would like to understand how cash sitting in a bank should be taxed. I'll pass your opinion on to FASB and the IRS so we can all share, too.


I'm quite relaxed. I find it funny that just because someone posts something that isn't praising Apple - they are labeled as someone who dislikes Apple. You know - I have really close friends - and when they act in a way that I don't care for and I express it - they don't think I don't like them.

Put another way - I'm pretty much all Apple in the products I own - iPhone, iPad, iMac - and I enjoy them all. That doesn't mean I have to love everything Apple does. Nor does Apple making such products entitled them to not be criticized. Nothing I've posted here is remotely as extreme as those posts against Nokia - for example. But somehow that misplaced anger doesn't warrant a "relax" post from you? LOL
 
If it isn't over your head then I'm not sure what excuse you can use. It's evident from your posts that you don't understand what LTD is saying, nor what is being said in the macrumors news posts. Neither does wikus.

Is our assumption that these 2 are different people, then?
 
Wow, that's terrible news for Android...

That's almost $10/phone, and Apple has more units and much better bargaining power (in the form of its own patents) than most Android OEMs. Microsoft is already collecting $5/Android phone from HTC, and seeks to get up to $10/phone from OEMs that don't settle. Add in $10-15/phone for Nokia's IP, something for Apple's IP, and potentially much more for Oracle's IP. Suddenly you're looking at IP licensing costs of well over $50/phone for any Android OEM. At that point Windows Phone will start to look attractive to them...
 
They do dumbphones ok. As long as the market for dumbphones remains viable, of course. If we were ever to see content-rich app-enabled phones the likes of Google's and Apple's approaching dumbphone prices, however, then Nokia will have even more problems. But by then their future will have been decided. What that future is we'll find out sometime in 2012.

Nokia is a hell of a lot more than a, "dumphone" maker or a patent-troll.

You're talking about one of the oldest surviving telecommunications companies in the world. There is way, way too much to write in a post about the company itself, but you can semi educate yourself here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nokia

Nokia is a big reason we have GSM network technology to begin with as they were a big developer of it. Every time you're on a phone call (in a GSM iPhone) and you go to send a text message at the same time or browse the web you have Nokia and the other GSM engineers/developers to thank for that. If you take your GSM iPhone abroad it will work and you have Nokia and the other GSM engineers to thank for that.

There are a host of things Nokia does that are not directly mobile phone related: Nokia Siemens for wired and wireless network tech. Navteq for vehicle navigation etc. etc. etc.

The world would a very different place today if it weren't for the likes of Nokia, Motorola, Bell Labs <-> ATT, Lucent and on and on and on. These are the companies that shaped our communications based world and housed the engineers that created the systems we use on a day to day basis.

You try to make Apple out to be a demigod way too much. They are a great company with great tech, but they are also in the position they are today because of other companies who developed great tech.
 
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Thank you for putting this "debate" in perspective. Everyone is jumping on LTD, but in this circumstance, what he's saying about apple and nokia's claims is correct. Where he got a little weird was in claiming nokia willfully was tanking their business.

A quick word on Nokia willfully tanking their business. I would have to agree with that statement. Nokia made decisions stemming some years that have progressively set it farther and farther behind in the smartphone race. A couple of years ago Nokia released what I will admit was a pretty spectacular piece of hardware called the N900. Could it have been an iPhone killer? Probably not. However, that is not the point; the point is that Nokia could have used this device as a springboard into the smartphone market as we know it now (ie. iOS and Android.) Further more at the time Android had only a fraction of the market that they do now. Had Nokia made a significant investment in marketing the N900 and more importantly Maemo/Meego the smartphone landscape as we know it now could have looked extremely different. Alas they didn't they were content with both technologies being the playground of the "geek" crowd and look where it is now.

That's my take at least.
 
I'm quite relaxed. I find it funny that just because someone posts something that isn't praising Apple - they are labeled as someone who dislikes Apple. You know - I have really close friends - and when they act in a way that I don't care for and I express it - they don't think I don't like them.
Because you don't like their actions. Apparently you like Apple products, but not the company's actions. Which is what I stated. I'm glad you agree.

Any comment on the facts of Nokia vs Apple?
 
If Nokia won this suit, then why aren't other companies forced to pay apple for their technology? Their multitouch? Their designs? Their OS?

Can someone explain that to me?

There's no way to get around using Nokia's IP. And there's no way Nokia can refuse to license it.

To expand on your question, there's no actual "winning here" unless Apple disputed the validity of Nokia's GSM et al patents to begin with, which would have been pointless.

Nokia *must* license these particular patents to everyone because they are a necessity. In turn, there is no way that any potential licensee can get out of licensing them. So the relationship Nokia has with those that produce wireless phones is more or less inevitable. At some point you're going to be a licensee and Nokia will be the licensor.

Apple was not disputing Nokia's patents in question. There's really no disputing them by anyone. The complaint that Apple had was that Nokia was charging Apple "x" while charging everyone else "y." FRAND terms exist for patents like these to ensure a level of equal and unfettered access. So, the patent holder can't use their position as a holder of GSM patents to extort money from others. There is a requirement for equal and fair treatment in terms of access and licensing costs.

Apple essentially said "we know we have to pay you, but what's up with charging us so much more?? We have a problem with that. So we'll hold off on paying you because we think what you're doing to us is unjust under FRAND requirements. We'll figure this out in court."

The only way to "win" in this case would mean that Nokia would receive what they asked for originally, namely the amount (however much it was) that Apple alleged was exorbitant and outside FRAND terms. If, however, Apple ended up paying Nokia the same amount everyone else was paying them, or otherwise a fair deal under FRAND, then it's not really a win for Nokia. What it is, and could reasonably be inferred, is a much-needed payout for Nokia. We don't know the amounts. We don't know whether Apple got the deal they were looking for or if they got a different deal that they considered equitable under FRAND. What happened is they settled. Given that this ended earlier than anyone expected, one of the parties decided it was best to either come up with a better deal, or to simply pay what the other asked for.

Now, the fact that this case settled way early is interesting. These tend to go on for years. We don't know the scheduling and dates for this case (or do we?) But if there was an expectation by parties involved that the case would have gone on for far longer than it did, that there would be further opportunities for ongoing arguments, all the while with Apple still holding out on payment, then it wold likely not have been Apple who decided to end it early, since there was no actual requirement to do so.

Would it have been in Nokia's best interest to get this money (or get anything at all) asap? Yes. Given their dismal situation, they need it.

Whether Apple needed to settle *now* as opposed to later (they waited *this* long, after all), is pretty hazy.

Unfortunately, there are still some facts that we don't have. However, "winning" and "losing" don't really apply here unless we know who paid what, measured against original payment terms. If your terms were originally $500 and I end up paying you $350 then you didn't really win. Especially if we both knew that you were required to give me the product and I was required to pay for it anyway at some point.
 
I think most of the manufacturers who make Android phones are already licensees of Nokia's patents. They had all been making phones for many years before Apple entered the market so I can't see there being a problem for Android.

There were already 40 companies licensing the patents when Nokia started it's action against Apple in 2009.

Olly... I based that statement on this article that states that Android would be next. So it must me something in the OS and not in the hardware that is in violation.

http://fosspatents.blogspot.com/2011/06/apple-and-nokia-settle-patent-dispute.html

If it was a hardware thing, Apple does not make the 3G chip and it would have carried the license if it did.
 
That's almost $10/phone, and Apple has more units and much better bargaining power (in the form of its own patents) than most Android OEMs. Microsoft is already collecting $5/Android phone from HTC, and seeks to get up to $10/phone from OEMs that don't settle. Add in $10-15/phone for Nokia's IP, something for Apple's IP, and potentially much more for Oracle's IP. Suddenly you're looking at IP licensing costs of well over $50/phone for any Android OEM. At that point Windows Phone will start to look attractive to them...

That is Microsoft's exact strategy, and has been for years. Get the free OS to cost money so that people will flock back to Microsoft instead, and Microsoft will cut them a deal. Microsoft cannot compete against free, so they (or their partners -- hi, Nokia!) force the free operating systems to not be free any more.
 
Because you don't like their actions. Apparently you like Apple products, but not the company's actions. Which is what I stated. I'm glad you agree.

Any comment on the facts of Nokia vs Apple?

Let's not start a straw man argument. I didn't say I didn't like their actions (in total) as your post suggests. I stated that there are things about Apple I don't like.

Where did I say it was Apple's fault? I simply stated that Apple used patents owned by Nokia and Nokia was right to pursue legal action and be paid. Apple really had little choice in the matter - it was either use the GSM patents - or not make a phone. Calculated or not - they didn't reach an agreement with Nokia before releasing the first iPhone. Actions and consequences.
 
Some of you aren't getting it. There was a reason Apple held out on paying Nokia. It was never in dispute that they owed anything.

Most of Nokia's IP relates to international wireless standards, and the licensing of this particular IP, such as GSM, is a far different beast than other IP. There's really no way around *not* licensing it to others, and no way around others *not* having to use it.

There are, however, rules that the licensor of this IP must abide by (given the nature of this IP); namely and in particularly under Fair, Reasonable and Non-Discriminatory terms, known as FRAND. As you can tell, this sort of thing doesn't at all apply to all IP. However, Nokia's is quite fundamental to the mobile industry, i.e., GSM. Nokia must license according to reasonable terms. The issue was, what was meant by Fair, Reasonable, and Non-Discriminatory, and whether Nokia was or was not offering the license to Apple under these terms. Apple was looking for these terms, in particular for the same treatment Nokia gave to every other licensee.

Apple alleged that Nokia's terms were *not* Fair, Reasonable, and Non-Discriminatory (and not at parity with the terms Nokia offered to other licensees) whereas they are required to be. We don't know exactly how much Nokia was asking. We know that Apple did not have a lot of similar patents that Nokia had to license under FRAND, so we can just as well assume that they were asking for more than what Apple thought was justified.

Given that this case didn't go on for very long, means that that one of the parties likely gave in to the other. Someone caved. We really don't know who tapped out first. However, do note that Apple already had three of the patents excluded. Further, one of the parties needed the deal (as in, money) more than the other, and given the early resolution, they needed the deal *now.*

Draw your own conclusions.


Thing was Apple wanted the same rate as other companies but different is those other companies had patents in the pool and Nokia was able to use them.
Apple had ZERO patents in the pool and was not going to agree to licences any of them. This means Apple should pay a higher rate and rightfully so. Apple basically wanted a rate lower than everyone else.

It is share patents or pay a higher rate for the GSM ones.
Apple did not want to share patents and wanted the lower rate. Sorry it is one or the other.
 
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samcraig said:
Because you don't like their actions. Apparently you like Apple products, but not the company's actions. Which is what I stated. I'm glad you agree.

Any comment on the facts of Nokia vs Apple?

Let's not start a straw man argument. I didn't say I didn't like their actions (in total) as your post suggests. I stated that there are things about Apple I don't like.

Where did I say it was Apple's fault? I simply stated that Apple used patents owned by Nokia and Nokia was right to pursue legal action and be paid. Apple really had little choice in the matter - it was either use the GSM patents - or not make a phone. Calculated or not - they didn't reach an agreement with Nokia before releasing the first iPhone. Actions and consequences.

You're still acting as if apple had the intention of not paying nokia. This is what everyone is criticisizing you for as far as I can tell. Nokia and apple went to court because they couldn't agree on terms. Now they've settled on terms they both agree to. We don't know enough to say who was trying to get over on who and when. If you continue to try and claim either side won or lost, or that one side was right and the other wrong, you aren't really grasping the concept of a settlement.
 
Nokia is a hell of a lot more than a, "dumphone" maker or a patent-troll.

You're talking about one of the oldest surviving telecommunications companies in the world. There is way, way too much to write in a post about the company itself, but you can semi educate yourself here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nokia

Nokia is a big reason we have GSM network technology to begin with as they were a big developer of it. Every time you're on a phone call (in a GSM iPhone) and you go to send a text message at the same time or browse the web you have Nokia and the other GSM engineers/developers to thank for that. If you take your GSM iPhone abroad it will work and you have Nokia and the other GSM engineers to thank for that.

There are a host of things Nokia does that are not directly mobile phone related: Nokia Siemens for wired and wireless network tech. Navteq for vehicle navigation etc. etc. etc.

The world would a very different place today if it weren't for the likes of Nokia, Motorola, Bell Labs <-> ATT, Lucent and on and on and on. These are the companies that shaped our communications based world and housed the engineers that created the systems we use on a day to day basis.

You try to make Apple out to be a demigod way too much. They are a great company with great tech, but they are also in the position they are today because of other companies who developed great tech.

They stole it preemptively from apple.
 
Thing was Apple wanted the same rate as other companies but different is those other companies had patents in the pool and Nokia was able to use them.
Apple had ZERO patents in the pool and was not going to agree to licences any of them. This means Apple should pay a higher rate and rightfully so. Apple basically wanted a rate lower than everyone else.

It is share patents or pay a higher rate for the GSM ones.
Apple did not want to share patents and wanted the lower rate. Sorry it is one or the other.

Do Apple's other patents have anything to do with ensuring equitability under FRAND when it comes to the kind of IP that GSM is?

Does FRAND not apply regardless? You charge everyone the same amount due to the nature of the IP itself (i.e., it's a necessity.) Under law and the terms of FRAND, how do the licensee's other (possibly unrelated) patents apply here?
 
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You're still acting as if apple had the intention of not paying nokia. This is what everyone is criticisizing you for as far as I can tell. Nokia and apple went to court because they couldn't agree on terms. Now they've settled on terms they both agree to. We don't know enough to say who was trying to get over on who and when. If you continue to try and claim either side won or lost, or that one side was right and the other wrong, you aren't really grasping the concept of a settlement.

Huh? I never implied Apple never planned on paying Nokia. Did you read the post you quoted just now. I said that Apple and Nokia clearly didn't enter into an agreement BEFORE the launch of the iPhone. So that was always going to be looming over Apple's head. Clearly Nokia wasn't going to give Apple a pass. And clearly the situation had to reach a conclusion. It's not right or wrong - it's business.

Now perhaps you missed a post awhile back when I conceded that it was a SETTLEMENT and not a VERDICT. In that case, perhaps you should reread my posts after that. If not - I'm afraid it's you who isn't grasping it.
 
Now, the fact that this case settled way early is interesting. These tend to go on for years. We don't know the scheduling and dates for this case (or do we?) But if there was an expectation by parties involved that the case would have gone on for far longer than it did, that there would be further opportunities for ongoing arguments, all the while with Apple still holding out on payment, then it wold likely not have been Apple who decided to end it early, since there was no actual requirement to do so.

Things tend to change in two years. At Nokia, two things have changed: First, Nokia wanted Apple's iPhone user interface patents, probably to use them in Symbian. Now Symbian is dead, Nokia goes with Windows 7, any issues with Apple's patents are now Microsoft's problem and not Nokia's, so these patents are now much much less important for Nokia. Second, Nokia has a new CEO who wants to look good. Let's say the correct amount of license fees would be X dollars per iPhone, and at some point Apple has to pay X dollars for every iPhone made so far. For Nokia as a company it wouldn't really matter if the case lasts ten years, Nokia will get their money eventually. For the CEO, it's different. He wants the money _now_ so that Nokia looks profitable today while _he_ is the CEO. He doesn't want the next CEO to look good.
 
if he listened to you he could never post again!!

Again, that's only half the story. At issue were Nokia's terms. Apple never refused to pay Nokia. They claimed they weren't getting the same deal as everyone else. They were quite willing to pay, but would right do so only under FRAND.
 
Where did I say it was Apple's fault? I simply stated that Apple used patents owned by Nokia and Nokia was right to pursue legal action and be paid.

So LTD - you admit that Apple was in the wrong and Nokia was justified in suing and that winning the suit was legit?
I guess I define "fault" and "wrong" as similar words. Shall I quote a thesaurus for every word in every post? That will take more time than I typically have during the day.

My point, of course, is that there is no 100% good/bad, right/wrong, justified/at fault here. You don't seem to agree, which, considering all the facts, is a biased viewpoint. Hence, my (and others) assumption that you dislike Apple, at least in relation to this particular court case.
 
Do Apple's other patents have anything to do with ensuring equitability under FRAND when it comes to the kind of IP that GSM is?

Does FRAND not apply regardless? You charge everyone the same amount due to the nature of the IP itself (i.e., it's a necessity.) Under law and the terms of FRAND, how do the licensee's other (possibly unrelated) patents apply here?

you failed to address the issues. Other companies put patents in the pool. Those patents are worth some money so that basicly reduces the rate other companies have to pay.
for example
Say it is FRAND is 1% but you have some good patents that Nokia wants. Well if you throw them you get to rate of 0.5% since your patents cover the other 0.5%.

Apple wanted 0.5% but did not want to supply the patents that would of reduced the rate.

Pay higher rate or put patents in to get the reduced rate. It is that simple.

Simple logic complete kills LTD argument. That is a shocker (oh wait it is not)
 
Again, that's only half the story. At issue were Nokia's terms. Apple never refused to pay Nokia. They claimed they weren't getting the same deal as everyone else. They were quite willing to pay, but would right do so only under FRAND.

Let's play with semantics. Apple was willing to pay but didn't because it didn't like the terms. That really means Apple refused to pay.

IE. I walk into a store. I want to buy a can of soda. The store says - that will be $500. I said I am willing to pay - but I will only pay $1. Doesn't that really mean I refuse to pay $500?

Just askin' LTD.
 
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