Apps That Didn't Add 'Trader' Contact Info in the EU Removed From App Store

[turbineseaplane]

Why would I gamble with the language of "you may not be considered a trader" just to put out a free app when it comes to fines or other legal action? I'm a software engineer, you could argue that a free project is still inside of my profession.

Fines from who?

This is total FUD

It's readily provable on your part if you are putting out a free app and making no money off of it (not showing any intent to commercialize it)

The Trader self assessment bullet points are refreshingly clear and easy to interpret

 

[ChrisA]

Yup. People at the EU didn't think this one through.

Yes they did. They don't want anonymous people selling stuff online. Being unreachable anonymous means you can do "anything" (fraud, kiddy-porn, spyware,...)with no liability. But if your verified real name and contact info is on the product, you might tend be be more careful about what you release.

 

[lkrupp]

I can’t wait to see how this is somehow Apple’s fault

Well, these ARE MacRumors forums after all where everything is Apple’s fault no matter what. Fire Tim Cook!

 

[timber]

I sold my previous car a few months ago. I go an eSIM burner for exactly zero euros.

I could probably find a similar arrangement for the address.

 

[TechnoMonk]

If your app is full of bugs you should be contactable especially if it’s a paid for app.

It doesn’t need to be full of bugs. People ask dumb things. You would be shocked at some of the messages customer support guys get.

 

[Stromos]

I think the worry is that a PO Box can cost hundreds per year.
I got one in the UK for free and all they bill for is scanning post that I get, which should almost never happen.

Then get a SIM card which in the uk you can easily get for under £5 a month and use that.

It’s annoying but not anywhere near as costly as it first seems.

So if you are annoyed with a developer just send them lots of mail.....

 

[TechnoMonk]

I think the worry is that a PO Box can cost hundreds per year.
I got one in the UK for free and all they bill for is scanning post that I get, which should almost never happen.

Then get a SIM card which in the uk you can easily get for under £5 a month and use that.

It’s annoying but not anywhere near as costly as it first seems.

You can’t force it on people. Lot of these bureaucracy is not needed. Let the store owners handle the issue, in this case Apple or third party app stores. Apple already verifies developer information.

 

[TechnoMonk]

I wonder if the sellers on eBay/Amazon have to provide phone numbers and address to rest of the world.

 

[Stromos]

You wouldn’t have all these issues if you could distribute your app through your own website.

Definitely no cost in hosting a website with a CDN to provide downloads.

 

[bsolar]

You can’t force it on people. Lot of these bureaucracy is not needed. Let the store owners handle the issue, in this case Apple or third party app stores. Apple already verifies developer information.

The root issue is liability. If you sell software in the EU, you are subject to consumer protection laws that impose some liabilities to you and that's the reason you need to be traceable.

Apple is generally not liable for third-party software delivered through the App Store. To "handle the issue" in stead of the developer, Apple would have to forfeit their liability exemption and basically "become the trader".

While possible, it's definitely something Apple would be very wary to do.

 

[Timo_Existencia]

Those who support the DMA and the EU:

"Small developers shouldn't have to pay the outrageous $99 developer fee that Apple charges!!!!"

Also those who support the DMA and the EU:

"A separate telephone number and PO Box are just a cost of doing business! If you don't like it, you shouldn't be in business!!!!"

 

[TechnoMonk]

Those who support the DMA and the EU:

"Small developers shouldn't have to pay the outrageous $99 developer fee that Apple charges!!!!"

Also those who support the DMA and the EU:

"A separate telephone number and PO Box are just a cost of doing business! If you don't like it, you shouldn't be in business!!!!"

I have seen this movie before many times. Once you invite govt in private business, it’s never ending control.

The root issue is liability. If you sell software in the EU, you are subject to consumer protection laws that impose some liabilities to you and that's the reason you need to be traceable.

Apple is generally not liable for third-party software delivered through the App Store. To "handle the issue" in stead of the developer, Apple would have to forfeit their liability exemption and basically "become the trader".

While possible, it's definitely something Apple would be very wary to do.

Apple has refunded in the past. And generally helpful against rogue apps.

 

[bsolar]

Apple has refunded in the past. And generally helpful against rogue apps.

Liability is not limited to refund. While Apple might be generally helpful against rogue Apps, they still explicitly deny as much liability as they can in their Developer Program License Agreement.

Apple would be on the hook for far more than some refunds if they were liable as a trader.

 

[TechnoMonk]

Liability is not limited to refund. While Apple might be generally helpful against rogue Apps, they still explicitly deny as much liability as they can in their Developer Program License Agreement.

Apple would be on the hook for far more than some refunds if they were liable as a trader.

Sounds like it’s liability doing business in EU. I can see lot of indies opting out of EU. At some point, it’s just not worth it.

 

[Bampf]

I think some people are underestimating this barrier.

Most apps make no money. But that doesn't stop people from putting out apps, often in their spare time, and hoping to find an audience. One of the attractions of the App Store was that the up-front cost was low. If you owned a Mac and iPhone already (millions do) you could use free tools to develop something. If you got an audience, you could scale up, quit your day job, start a business.

This was a great model for Apple too - lots of store content, and if an app hit it big Apple got 30%.

Yes, it's a labor of love for many developers (it was for me), but that doesn't mean we want to subsidize our hobby to the tune of hundreds of dollars every year. My personal goal was to make back Apple's developer license fee every year, and I only managed that the first year.

I get that the EU had reasons for this requirement, but let's not pretend this is an easy lift for all indie developers. They aren't bellyaching because they are "lazy".

 

[Abazigal]

Hmm, do we know how many apps are affected by this “ban”?

 

[SBlue1]

Yeah. I find this rule too difficult for small developers to implement. Especially having a phone number posted publicly

Then they shouldn't be developers if they can't afford another SIM card! Consumers have rights in Europe.

 

[0049190]

It doesn’t need to be full of bugs. People ask dumb things. You would be shocked at some of the messages customer support guys get.

A lot of iPhone users are not technically minded. It’s just good practice to provide some form of customer support, even if their questions seem dumb to you and me.

 

[bsolar]

Sounds like it’s liability doing business in EU. I can see lot of indies opting out of EU. At some point, it’s just not worth it.

Maybe, but what is liability for the business is protection for the consumer. Ultimately there is need for some sort of balance as you definitely don't want businesses to be unaccountable for the products they sell to consumers.

Said that, IMHO if a developer is doing actual business they should be operating under a LLC anyway, regardless of whether they are in the EU or not.

 

[TechnoMonk]

A lot of iPhone users are not technically minded. It’s just good practice to provide some form of customer support, even if their questions seem dumb to you and me.

Providing support and blasting phone numbers and address are very different things. One doesn’t depend on other.

 

[TechnoMonk]

Maybe, but what is liability for the business is protection for the consumer. Ultimately there is need for some sort of balance as you definitely don't want businesses to be unaccountable for the products they sell to consumers.

Said that, IMHO if a developer is doing actual business they should be operating under a LLC anyway, regardless of whether they are in the EU or not.

This is not about consumer either. It’s about control.

 

[bsolar]

This is not about consumer either. It’s about control.

Some form of control will always be necessary in a free market. Free market does not mean lack of accountability.

It's again a matter of balance.

 

[0049190]

Providing support and blasting phone numbers and address are very different things. One doesn’t depend on other.

The EU are trying to make the app market more professional and less like the Wild West in order to protect consumers. Personally I think that’s a good thing.

I hate the way some companies hide behind a generic email address with no other contact details.

 

[turbineseaplane]

I think some people are underestimating this barrier.

Most apps make no money. But that doesn't stop people from putting out apps, often in their spare time, and hoping to find an audience. One of the attractions of the App Store was that the up-front cost was low. If you owned a Mac and iPhone already (millions do) you could use free tools to develop something. If you got an audience, you could scale up, quit your day job, start a business.

This was a great model for Apple too - lots of store content, and if an app hit it big Apple got 30%.

Yes, it's a labor of love for many developers (it was for me), but that doesn't mean we want to subsidize our hobby to the tune of hundreds of dollars every year. My personal goal was to make back Apple's developer license fee every year, and I only managed that the first year.

I get that the EU had reasons for this requirement, but let's not pretend this is an easy lift for all indie developers. They aren't bellyaching because they are "lazy".

You've misunderstood the situation

What you're describing is exempt from Trader status and not subject to the requirements being discussed

 

[webkit]

Those who support the DMA and the EU:

"Small developers shouldn't have to pay the outrageous $99 developer fee that Apple charges!!!!"

Also those who support the DMA and the EU:

"A separate telephone number and PO Box are just a cost of doing business! If you don't like it, you shouldn't be in business!!!!"

I think the issue some had was much more about the 15% to 30% app/in-app commission and payment processing fees than the $99 developer fee. Also, about not having the option of offering their iOS app in alternative app stores or through their own website/store potentially for less. Obviously, alternatives can have costs too so it wasn't about eliminating costs completely.