Apps That Didn't Add 'Trader' Contact Info in the EU Removed From App Store

[bsolar]

Its a bit ironic because Google is also enforcing this nonsense yet Google themselves do not have a support number, even for paying workspace customers.

From what I understand the telephone number to be provided is not required to be a customer support number. The telephone number is required to provide traceability, not customer support.

It would be somewhat the equivalent of the telephone number you can find here for Google.

 

[Sippincider]

No a PO Box and a separate phone number aren't "cost of doing business". Indie devs are often one person and most apps don't make a lot of money.

Looking at this from outside the EU: if you're an indie who can't afford a PO Box and a separate phone number, then you also don't have the legal and compliance resources to be distributing software internationally. And you're really playing with fire if you're trying anyway.

Now this is not meant to be an insult to the indies and small shops, I've been there myself. We stayed within our home country because the potential penalties of problems abroad were so severe compared to the modest profits we'd see, it simply wasn't worth it.

 

[mw360]

What about student projects, or hobby apps. I literally make $50 a year of my hobby app. And in certain countries secondary phone numbers or PO boxes are either not cheap or not trivial.

It just prevents people from publishing fun/little projects and people immediately have to aim for profitability to pay for all the fees and additional things to set up.

There’s already a lot of hurdles to overcome, so it just makes it more difficult.

At this point I also feel like I need to create a company or non-profit to just be legally separated from everything because I’ve no idea what these phone numbers or PO boxes would be used for.

And I don’t want to sift through spam calls or check a PO box for random mails from strangers

If a non-profit is your aim, then just distribute your app for free and you don't count as trader.

If you create a limited liability company your legal name and home address and partial DoB go on a public register anyway, as does the phone number of the business.

 

[ectospheno]

If a non-profit is your aim, then just distribute your app for free and you don't count as trader.

If you create a limited liability company your legal name and home address and partial DoB go on a public register anyway, as does the phone number of the business.

The organizer of an LLC does not have to be a member. Most of the names you see are attorneys.

 

[con2apple]

Independent developers and small companies may not have dedicated business addresses and phone numbers to provide to customers

That’s a lie.
Every company has a business address. Even if it's the own garage. Just like Apple had.

I can't understand why the EU is portrayed as the enemy IN EVERY ARTICLE. Some would even suspect bias.

Fact is, even the smallest developer runs a business and is responsible for his app. It's unacceptable that on the one hand thousands of euros are raked in, but on the other hand it's pretended to be a hobby and not a business.

 

[Starfia]

Yes, you are selling something. Let's say it is defective and causes harm. How can your customer contact you for compensation if you do not give contact information? Yes, you ARE liable for the products you sell. You bought insurance I hope?

Apple's development agreement with respect to the App Store has traditionally specified that Apple is permitted to take responsibility for all that – hear from customers, offer refunds, and so on. Relieving small developers of that burden, allowing them to focus on actually providing their apps, was presumably the whole point of that.

 

[AppliedMicro]

Apple's development agreement with respect to the App Store has traditionally specified that Apple is permitted to take responsibility for all that – hear from customers, offer refunds, and so on. Relieving small developers of that burden, allowing them to focus on actually providing their apps, was presumably the whole point of that.

“App licenses are provided to you by Apple or a third party developer (“App Provider”). Apple acts as an agent for App Providers in operating the App Store and is not a party to the sales contract or user agreement between you and the App Provider.

(…)

Subject to local law, the App Provider of any Third Party App is solely responsible for its content and warranties, as well as any claims that you may have related to the Third Party App

(…)

Apple is responsible for providing maintenance and support for Apple Apps only, or as required under applicable law. App Providers are responsible for providing maintenance and support for Third Party Apps.

https://www.apple.com/legal/internet-services/itunes/

 

[Analog Kid]

Yeah, can’t imagine putting it out there and bombarded 24 Hrs about bugs and questions. May be use a burner phone. EU has gone too far, not sure how long this will last though.

There are bugs I’ve been annoyed enough about that I’d certainly show up and knock on the door…

Get a PO Box and a separate phone number as a cost of doing business, simple as that, those are not very expensive at all.

Why should consumers have zero idea who they are doing business with?

How does a PO Box and separate number tell you who you’re doing business with?

 

[Abazigal]

So if I'm understanding the opposition to providing a business address and phone number...

Devs want to charge money from customers, but want to remain fully anonymous to those same customers?

I don’t need to know their home address, is what I am saying. An email address and maybe social media handle more than suffices for me. A lot of apps I purchase come from nameless, faceless devs and I personally have no issue with it. Perhaps this speaks more to the disposable nature of apps that I am fine spending $5 here or $10 there and if it’s a bust, then it’s a bust. I am not even going to bother with a refund.

 

[mtbdudex]

This is insane. As a small indie developer you are supposed to put your home address and phone number?

Guess there are 2 choices.
Do it - sell
Don’t do it - find a new job

 

[mtbdudex]

Agreed.

I have lots of random calls / numbers from the USA since the last 2 months, I don't know if it's related to my dev status, but it's so annoying.

I remember when I had a small company, lots of people would call me to sell me stuff for my business.

You have both a business phone number and private / personal right?

 

[sehns]

No, I understand the concept. Being a small business does not free you from certain common practices, such as providing contact information.



You are correct, one could get a PO Box and separate phone line and then ignore them completely, that is called bad customer service. One can also have a web site and email contact that they choose to ignore, hell the email addy could be fake.

I'm flipping this back on you, your points are not valid. If you want to do business then provide contact information so consumers have recourse if needed. A mailing address and phone number are most certainly a cost of doing business, if you cannot afford them then you might want to choose a different profession.

So I just looked up a PO box in my area, for regular letter size they are $4.50/mo or $54/year. Oh the poor indies!

View attachment 2483570

That would be fine except they explicitly do not allow a PO Box/Redirect address OR a redirect number and threaten to ban your account if you do use one that's not your actual address.

Clearly not many actual app developers in here

 

[Starfia]

To the article's author:

The title of this article is "Apps That Didn't Add 'Trader' Contact Info in the EU Removed From App Store".

I believe this is incorrect: it's apps that didn't specify their trader status that Apple says were removed. Only those that indicated by their status that they were traders were required to furnish contact information – the apps of those that updated their status to specify they weren't traders are supposedly still up.

I've pointed this out for a prior article which still appears not to have been corrected.

 

[Lapidus]

I had an app in the App Store, a simple scoreboard for a physical boardgame. I mostly made it for myself but it made about USD 10 per month. I don't want my name, (personal) address and phone number publicly available so now the app is removed in the EU store. I don't mind but I think the EU stinks, everything was fine before. (I'm based in the EU)

 

[bsolar]

That would be fine except they explicitly do not allow a PO Box/Redirect address OR a redirect number and threaten to ban your account if you do use one that's not your actual address.

Apple's documentation states that a PO Box can be provided by individuals but not organizations.

This makes sense since typically an organization needs a registered legal address anyway and PO Boxes usually don't qualify for that purpose.

 

[bsolar]

I had an app in the App Store, a simple scoreboard for a physical boardgame. I mostly made it for myself but it made about USD 10 per month. I don't want my name, (personal) address and phone number publicly available so now the app is removed in the EU store. I don't mind but I think the EU stinks, everything was fine before. (I'm based in the EU)

You don't qualify as a trader IMHO so if I were you I would just report my status as non-trader.

 

[Big_D]

Yeah. I find this rule too difficult for small developers to implement. Especially having a phone number posted publicly

I was a small developer in Germany from 2002 through 2010. I had to be a registered business, I had to go to my local council offices and register my business, including telephone number and address (I was working out of my home, so I had to register my home address).

 

[Big_D]

This is insane. As a small indie developer you are supposed to put your home address and phone number?

I had to, working in Germany as a developer and freelance consultant from 2002 through 2010. It is standard practice and a legal requirement for doing business. Obviously I wasn't on online portals at the time, but my website and email signature had to have my address, contact telephone number and business registration number clearly visible. The App Store is just an extension of those rules, so any developer that currently has a website had to fulfill those requirements already...

 

[Big_D]

Agreed.

I have lots of random calls / numbers from the USA since the last 2 months, I don't know if it's related to my dev status, but it's so annoying.

I remember when I had a small company, lots of people would call me to sell me stuff for my business.

It is swings and roundabouts, you have to have your number shown, but it is illegal for other companies to cold-call you, you have to have asked them to contact you. The same with unsolicited SMS, snail mail or email, you have to opt-in for all of that - with the exception of certain flyers that the Deutsche Post deliver to every address in a district, but that is getting rarer and rarer these days, usually prospects for the local discounters and supermarkets.

 

[SBlue1]

I am using apple’s in app purchase for donations. Other means of donations (or promoting other payment methods is not permitted - unless maybe someone registers as a non-profit, which again, is quite a bit of additional effort)

So it’s not simple.

I just think the guidance is really vague and Apple’s ecosystem doesn’t make this easier.
So I just removed my apps from the EU, because educating and adjusting my apps requires too much effort.

Being a hobby still makes you having a business and having customers even if you label your income as donations. In my free time I volunteered at my kids soccer club and we still needed insurance and to take care of legal stuff since we had people watching the games and buying our hotdogs.

 

[Big_D]

Yeah, can’t imagine putting it out there and bombarded 24 Hrs about bugs and questions. May be use a burner phone. EU has gone too far, not sure how long this will last though.

These rules have been in place for decades, outside of app stores. As a freelance developer working in Germany from 2002 to 2008, I had to have my address, telephone number and registration number on my website and in my email signature.

This is just a logical extension of the standard rules that apply outside the app stores already.

 

[Big_D]

No a PO Box and a separate phone number aren't "cost of doing business". Indie devs are often one person and most apps don't make a lot of money.

Consumers shouldn't get access to someone's phone number and address either, that's just invasive. Not all devs want consumer info (and you can see the ones that do in the privacy label). A website or email address should be enough.

It is your business address and your business telephone number. If you decide to work from home, that is your decision, whether to rent a PO box or to give out your home address.

I worked for a small number of companies in the area, so I never bothered with a PO box, but I did have a separate number for business, which I could switch to voicemail outside of office hours.

 

[Abazigal]

Guess there are 2 choices.
Do it - sell
Don’t do it - find a new job

Or don’t sell in the EU.

If users can cheer the Vision Pro not getting apps like YouTube, Netflix and Spotify, they will be fine being shut out of access to select apps in their region as well.

 

[mw360]

The organizer of an LLC does not have to be a member. Most of the names you see are attorneys.

Maybe in the US, but not in Europe afaik and definitely not in the UK. You could look me up in the registry and see my full name, address and month/year of my DoB. Plus you can look up the officially declared trading address and telephone number of the business. So for my wife's business for example, you can call her personal phone, email her, send post or come stand on our doorstep all using public records. And nothing comes of it. A couple of spammy letters once a year, the usual email spam, and a couple of spammy calls a month.

 

[nostradumbass]

Every company has a business address. Even if it's the own garage. Just like Apple had.

Not good to compare a small company or lone dev as an Apple size corporation with a marketing department.

If a company has revenue over millions of dollars then sure there should be support lines. But some guy who is lucky to make 5 figures can’t handle phone calls from hundreds of people.

I can't understand why the EU is portrayed as the enemy IN EVERY ARTICLE. Some would even suspect bias.

The right call the EU some kind of leftist commie state. It’s not. Their whole ideology about borderless trade and cheap immigrant slave labor pumping up the pyramid scheme housing market is right wing economic theory. If they were left wing at all they would have banned Twitter, put rent controls everywhere, and protected local workers from illegal workers.