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The MacBook Air is pointless to buy. My 2006 MacBook that I got for free has a faster processor than half the models and a barely slower one than the others. They are very, very expensive. The only reason someone would want one would be to show off to other businessmen, which is why my friend's dad got one.

And Apple putting an ARM processor in just one of their products? That's not what the Macintosh is all about.

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I'm misquoting but ... "the iPad will soon satisfy those looking for an ARM based macbook air"

Why do I foolishly keep praying for a dual screen clamshell iPad?

Actually, just an iPad with a keyboard Smart Cover. That would make the Air even more obsolete.
 
They aren't the same. iOS can't run x86 code and OS X can't run ARM code, i.e. you can't run iOS apps in OS X and vice versa.

Uh ? PPC Linux can't run x86 Linux applications, or ARM Linux applications, or Sparc Linux applications... Does that mean there's many different Linux kernels ? No, it just means that the kernel can be built for many different architectures.

iOS and OS X are mostly the same. They use the same core components, and Apple builds these core components on x86 or ARM depending on where they are going into. Think kernel, display server, framework libraries, etc..

What differs is the actual UI layer and UI toolkit. One is built for a mouse/keyboard interface, the other for touch based input. This is the difference between AppKit and UIKit. Nothing would prevent Apple from building UIKit for x86 or AppKit for ARM.

Some people are too stuck on what they see that they don't realise what they don't see. OS X and iOS are about as merged as they can be. They are pretty much the same codebase, with a few differing layers targeted to the respective hardware platforms.
 
Apple likes simplicity, control and the economies of scale from having a limited product range. So it's inevitable that eventually we'll have one OS (iOS & OSX merged) and one processor, when ARM chips can match Intel performace.
 
Apple likes simplicity, control and the economies of scale from having a limited product range. So it's inevitable that eventually we'll have one OS (iOS & OSX merged) and one processor, when ARM chips can match Intel performace.

Which will it be then ? Appkit on iOS devices or UIKit on OS X ?

Again, aside from these 2 very different paradigms in interface design, iOS and OS X are already "merged".
 
BTW, the Arm into the MBA was again another false rumor a few weeks/months ago...


it didn't make any sense for apple to move to ARM for Mac while OSX is designed for Intel processors...

iOS is designed for ARM not OSX
 
The question is really: How many more MBA's would Apple sell and how much more profit would they make, if (A) customers had a choice between models with Intel and models with ARM processor, or (B) Apple offered a model with both processors that could be very easy on the battery in some situations, or (C) Apple only offered the MBA with an ARM processor?

An MBA with ARM processor only would be a little cheaper, but not much. It would be a lot slower. It would have less software. The battery life would be a bit better. I can't see it increasing sales or profits for Apple, which is why it won't happen.
 
The MacBook Air is pointless to buy. My 2006 MacBook that I got for free has a faster processor than half the models and a barely slower one than the others. They are very, very expensive. The only reason someone would want one would be to show off to other businessmen, which is why my friend's dad got one.

And Apple putting an ARM processor in just one of their products? That's not what the Macintosh is all about.

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Actually, just an iPad with a keyboard Smart Cover. That would make the Air even more obsolete.

If you're judging speed based on ghz, you're making a huge mistake. In terms of raw cpu power, the current Airs are fairly similar to the original quad mac pros from 2006. It is way faster than your laptop from that era by any measure of performance. I don't own one as it does have many limitations (especially ram), but at least try to be accurate.

Apple likes simplicity, control and the economies of scale from having a limited product range. So it's inevitable that eventually we'll have one OS (iOS & OSX merged) and one processor, when ARM chips can match Intel performace.

There isn't any evidence that this will happen. Speculations of it are mostly based around the inherent issues of X86 which is really a very old design. Neither of your suggestions are foregone conclusions. You're looking at things that have already happened and trying to extrapolate data rather than looking at development plans for either company.
 
Uh ? PPC Linux can't run x86 Linux applications, or ARM Linux applications, or Sparc Linux applications... Does that mean there's many different Linux kernels ? No, it just means that the kernel can be built for many different architectures.

Does the average Joe care about that? No. OS X can't run iOS apps and iOS can't run OS X apps. That's what the average Joe sees and cares about. You can't say they are the same when they clearly aren't, which is what I WAS the one claimed.
 
OK maybe I misunderstood...

This is talking about Apple's plan to probably NOT use ARM/A5 in the MacBook Air, but instead stay on a course of intel or x86-based processors, correct?

NOT Apple discontinuing the MacBook Air line.

Sorry that I misunderstood...

I think the MacBook Air is an incredibly great product for Apple and I can't see why they would discontinue this, this laptop could be become the new 'standard' form factor in the future if they can pack higher RAM capacity capability, etc into the unit....Airs ARE much lighter than MacBook Pros.

EDIT: And yes, Mac OS X will be able to run iOS apps at some point in the future, when we have something like a touchscreen MacBook Air, I do see this happening.
 
Actually, it's the other way around. The superior R&D and advancement speed of Intel suggests ARM won't be much relevant in the future. The more Intel speeds up and lower the power consumption of their CPUs, the more possibility of ARM becoming the next AMD. Like I've said, if anything, iPADs will have Intel processors inside and full compatibility to the already rich softwares in OSX. If you're following Intel's development, you'll see why & how.
 
ipad v air

the ipad is a scaled up phone--the form factor that makes it is a great ereader, and sofa websurfer undermines it as work machine. What the ipad purists here seem to underappreciate is that people are very comfortable with 3 devices. There is no need to plug my ipad or phone into a dock--i can just move onto my laptop. The clamshell laptop design makes it a natural form factor for work requiring a keyboard--nothing needs to be propped up or additioanally encased.

Also--the importance for mobile work in this thread is greatly exaggerated. There is a population cohort that works this way--but traditional work styles still predominate. Current ipad docking products look more like radio shack than apple--i was shocked jobs signed off on an ipad dock--argueably the
junkiest product apple ever made.

The future of the tablets involves a stylus, not a keyboard. Sorry Steve.
 
iDevices are ARM-based computers, and they are such a joke that they make up the vast majority of Apple's revenue and profits.

...Which has what to do with them being implemented in what is supposed to be an ultraportable laptop? Technically a calculator is a computer, but most of us don't want to use those chips for our machines.

They're fine for phones and for tablets, but those machines don't really have to multitask very much. Hell, I use my 14-year-old upgraded Beige G3 w/1 GHz G4 upgrade (running on a 66 MHz bus/memory subsystem) for internet, email, video skype, a few old games (JK2, Quake 3, and FB games), but it wouldn't exactly cut it for everything I need to do if it was my only computer-- and it has more memory than any of the iPhones or iPads.

Not everybody needs a supercomputer, which 604e's and G4's were advertised as at one time.

The 604e was never advertised as a supercomputer-- not even the quad-CPU Daystar computers were. The G4s were only "supercomputers" because they were capable of more than a billion FLOPS, and only via AltiVec. Even the fastest G4 (~2.0 GHz w/512KB on-chip L2) wouldn't suffice for 90% of people's daily needs today.

And the main reason it's not a joke is probably a billion $$$ worth of FUD to use against Intel during negotiation season.

Uh what? Intel has nothing to worry about in terms of ULV for the moment.. especially with Sandy Bridge coming down the pipeline offering greater performance both graphics and CPU-wise per clock at reduced watt-per-clock.

P.S.... current A5 chips are 32-bit.
 
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Here's all the information you need to know: in just 5 years of iOS (under 2 with the PC successor, the iPad), iOS devices now make up 72% of Apple's earnings as of last quarter.

... and the graph is on a sharp uphill climb. In another year, it's predicted that that number will breach 80%. When 8 out of 10 of your customers are buying an iOS device, when does it make sense to continue supporting the remaining 2 customers? In another 5 years, it'll be under half of 1 customer per 10.

Think of which jobs today can replace a notebook or desktop with an iPad or iPhone: Retail, Mobile sales agents (real estate, pharmaceutical, etc), educators, medical professionals, are just a few I can think of right away. Add in all the jobs that don't require a computer at all, and this represents a significant portion of all jobs. All that remain are niche professionals such as engineers, writers and multimedia content creators.

Writers can easily solve their issue with the addition of a full keyboard. Engineers, Video, photo and audio professionals are those who still need a Mac/PC but some of those are already being addressed.

All you've got left are the manufacturing industry. You won't see iPads running a production line but then again, it's unlikely that you'll have seen a Mac doing that job anyway. These are highly specialized fields that will have customized computers doing the job.

So where does that leave the Mac in the next 10 years?

Do you know how much is 20% of 80 billion dollars?
Even if it is just 5 % it is still a lot...
:D
 
Which will it be then ? Appkit on iOS devices or UIKit on OS X ?

Again, aside from these 2 very different paradigms in interface design, iOS and OS X are already "merged".

How are already merged? Can you run iOS apps on a OSX device?

If they do merge there will probably be a new SDK made available.
 
Maybe someday it will be a dual CPU setup. A normal intel cpu + an ARM proc. and the OS will magically switch between CPUs when needed.
 
There isn't any evidence that this will happen. Speculations of it are mostly based around the inherent issues of X86 which is really a very old design. Neither of your suggestions are foregone conclusions. You're looking at things that have already happened and trying to extrapolate data rather than looking at development plans for either company.

Actually there is some evidence to suggest that this will happen. Lion was considerably more iOS like then previous OSX versions. There have been reports that Apple has pulled their best programmers off OSX to work on iOS. Apple has been porting their own apps (like iWork and iLife) to work on iOS. However the most compelling reason came out recently on their earnings call when they announced that the Mac accounts for just 14% of Apple revenues while the iPhone/iPad/iPod account for 78% of revenue.

Extrapolating what's happened previously to predict the future is actually fairly accurate. Based on previous experience I predict we will see new iPads in March, new iPhone in June and new iPods in Sept. See the logic? The clues are there. I was a product manager in the IT industry for many years so I do have some insight into how IT companies like Apple manage developments over the product life cycle.
 
I don't care if it's an Intel CPU, an ARM chip or a hamster. -What- I care about is that it will run real operating systems like Linux and Mac OS X -- and not that crippled piece of junk that iOS is. And I don't care if Apple makes more money with iToys and iOS than the entire African continent makes in a year -- the entire iOS experience sucks.

Sounds like you need a dose of Windows 8

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It's simpler than that. ARM provides the whole CPU core design. If the spec sheet says Cortex-A9, then it's Cortex-A9, no matter what customization have been done. Customization pretty much means that you can add e.g. video decoding/encoding engine or something similar, and you get to choose the GPU and the amount of RAM. The CPU cores don't change, only their frequency does.

Sure, you can still use ARM instruction set and do what e.g. Qualcomm has done with their Snapdragon lineup. That would be a very risky move, though. That requires years, even a decade, of R&D if you want to be competitive. You don't just hire a few engineers and they will come up with a new chip in a few months.

To be honest, I don't see Apple going that route. The end-user doesn't care what's inside as long as "it just works". The SoC market is also fairly crowded now that Intel is joining the party as well.

Why sow your own seeds while you can just wait for others to do it and grab the fruits?



I think that is the problem. People will be hesitant to switch for ARM based machine if it means lots of compromises.

Also, I don't really see what ARM would do better than Intel. I see lots of claims about battery life but in all honesty, that's 100% speculation. The ARM devices we have nowadays don't run full-blown OSs like OS X - they run OSs that are designed for more crippled hardware. There is no real multitasking for example. I can't have three browser windows open side by side all playing Youtube. Hence you can't compare the battery life fairly, OS X needs way more resources to begin with. Heck, the RAM requirement is 2GB in Lion while the most we have in iDevice is 512MB.

Moreover, the ARM chips we have today are designed for devices like phones and tablets - not for laptops and desktops like Intel chips are. We really have no idea how ARM would do at the same performance level. I would claim that ARM is way behind in performance per core and watt. Adding cores and frequency works to some degree but at some point, you will hit the wall. Software is extremely slow to support multithreading. We have had quad core CPUs for over 5 years but the support isn't overwhelming, let alone when we go past four cores. Thus adding more and more cores doesn't work, and that's one of the reasons why Intel's Ivy Bridge is still quad core. Also, at least for Intel's chips, 4GHz seems to be a magical obstacle. When you achieve 4GHz, the power consumption start to go up substantially. I can't explain the reason behind that and whether it would be the same with ARM but it's partially due to current leakage and the physics of silicon.

An ARM based MBA wouldn't run at 1GHz like iDevices do. We should be looking at least 2GHz, possibly closer to 3GHz, so the performance drop from Intel wouldn't be totally laughable. We don't have any ARM chips at 3GHz, so we don't have any idea how they perform and how's the power consumption.

Okay, this got a bit long so I'll summarize here: The pros of ARM are more or less just speculation. There aren't any ARM chips that can beat Intel in performance. Performance and power consumption don't always scale up nicely. You can have a chip that is very efficient at 1GHz but not at 2.5GHz, or vice versa. Also, if Intel's Medfield is as good as it looks, it would bunk the ideology that ARM is superior to x86 in terms of efficiency.

Well said but there is one thing I disagree with;

"The ARM devices we have nowadays don't run full-blown OSs like OS X - they run OSs that are designed for more crippled hardware. There is no real multitasking for example."

If you look at the RIM Playbook running the Playbook 2.0 OS, it does have real multitasking and it does it quite well. Now, I'm not advocating to go out and buy one but still I give RIM credit for doing a solid implementation of multitasking on a tablet.
 
Actually there is some evidence to suggest that this will happen. Lion was considerably more iOS like then previous OSX versions. There have been reports that Apple has pulled their best programmers off OSX to work on iOS. Apple has been porting their own apps (like iWork and iLife) to work on iOS. However the most compelling reason came out recently on their earnings call when they announced that the Mac accounts for just 14% of Apple revenues while the iPhone/iPad/iPod account for 78% of revenue.

Extrapolating what's happened previously to predict the future is actually fairly accurate. Based on previous experience I predict we will see new iPads in March, new iPhone in June and new iPods in Sept. See the logic? The clues are there. I was a product manager in the IT industry for many years so I do have some insight into how IT companies like Apple manage developments over the product life cycle.

Apple sold 5.2 million Macs in their fiscal Q1 for 2012 which accounted for 14% of their revenue and 26% year-over-year growth. 14% of $46 billion is a tonne of revenue. At that rate the Mac business is a $20-billion dollar per-year business, bigger than most companies overall. It would be foolish to give that up. Besides all the software developers, high-end audio / video editors, professional photographers, etc. are not going to be doing their work on an iPad, at least not yet anyway. Many of these professional workflows require the use of multiple big-screen monitors. The iPad doesn't come close to having the graphic capability to handle that.
 
Actually there is some evidence to suggest that this will happen. Lion was considerably more iOS like then previous OSX versions. There have been reports that Apple has pulled their best programmers off OSX to work on iOS. Apple has been porting their own apps (like iWork and iLife) to work on iOS. However the most compelling reason came out recently on their earnings call when they announced that the Mac accounts for just 14% of Apple revenues while the iPhone/iPad/iPod account for 78% of revenue.

Extrapolating what's happened previously to predict the future is actually fairly accurate. Based on previous experience I predict we will see new iPads in March, new iPhone in June and new iPods in Sept. See the logic? The clues are there. I was a product manager in the IT industry for many years so I do have some insight into how IT companies like Apple manage developments over the product life cycle.

Again this is why talking about share is just pointless.
Apples desktops revenue has grown even with them replaced by laptops
Apples laptop revenue has grown even with ten replaced by tablets.
Apples tablets revenue will grow even when they are replaced by whatever comes next.

Assuming they don't balls something up but computing market is hardly saturated it's not like toothpaste.
 
Does the average Joe care about that? No. OS X can't run iOS apps and iOS can't run OS X apps. That's what the average Joe sees and cares about. You can't say they are the same when they clearly aren't, which is what I WAS the one claimed.

What does the average joe have to do with a conversation about OS components and portability ? This is a technical forum, we discuss technical things. iOS and OS X share a lot of components, to say they are different when they clearly aren't only dumbs down the conversation.

If you don't want to discuss things on a technical level and want to keep it at the level of "looks different therefor it is!", then there's plenty of good non-technical forums for that.

The fact remains : don't confuse binary runtime compatibility based on CPU architectures for differences in the underlying code base. The same code base is at the mercy of the architecture it was built for, but that doesn't make it different.

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How are already merged? Can you run iOS apps on a OSX device?

Actually, yes, you can. In case you didn't know, iOS apps run through the "simulator" aren't emulated, they're running natively as x86 code. The simulator environment only provides the missing framework environment from OS X (which is UIKit/OpenGL ES mostly).

If they do merge there will probably be a new SDK made available.

Again, if they do merge, what would be the point of merging further ? Finder and Springboard are 2 different GUIs based on 2 very different and incompatible input paradigms.

The point is, what can be merged has been merged already. Duplication of effort is not something programmers or businesses run like Apple like to do. What you see as differences (UIKit, Springboard) on iOS are just the things that need to be reimplemented for the different device form factor.

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Well said but there is one thing I disagree with;

"The ARM devices we have nowadays don't run full-blown OSs like OS X - they run OSs that are designed for more crippled hardware. There is no real multitasking for example."

If you look at the RIM Playbook running the Playbook 2.0 OS, it does have real multitasking and it does it quite well. Now, I'm not advocating to go out and buy one but still I give RIM credit for doing a solid implementation of multitasking on a tablet.

No need to get out of the Apple ecosystem for examples. iOS has plenty real pre-emptive multi-tasking. It just doesn't expose it to userspace applications in a way that developers can use it. The OS goes out of its way to pause applications when they aren't in the foreground.

Of course, this not being a technical forum according to Hellhammer, we shouldn't discuss such concepts, because Joe Average doesn't know about them. :rolleyes:.

(Really, that dumbing down of the conversation really disappointed me...).
 
What does the average joe have to do with a conversation about OS components and portability ? This is a technical forum, we discuss technical things. iOS and OS X share a lot of components, to say they are different when they clearly aren't only dumbs down the conversation.

Sharing a lot of components isn't the same as being 'the same'. Time to pick up the dictionary.

same (the same)

1. identical; not different

2. of an identical type; exactly similar

Can you prove that the code of iOS is exactly the same as the code of OS X? Because it clearly is not, which makes them different.

Besides, what does the code have to do with anything? Even a child can see that OS X and iOS aren't the one and the same.
 
How about a heterogeneous system instead? ARM based designs seem to be moving in this direction with multicore designs that include a single, lower power core where the low power core is much simpler (eg no out of order execution) or even uses lower power transistor types. Perhaps if Intel did the same we could see Ultraportables that have very, very long battery life when under light load without sacrificing performance. The low power core could be an x86 one similar to their Medfield platform, which is very competitive with ARM in terms of performance per watt. In this way we could skirt by the nightmare of having two actively supported architectures on the Mac.**

**Yes, I know we've already dealt with this with PowerPC and Intel, but everybody knew PowerPC was on its way out.
 
1. Already has nearly every possible form of connectivity.
2. Already has file management.
3. Ours serve exclusively as content creation devices.

For a two year old device and ecosystem, these gadgets already doing a hell of a lot more for our architects & engineers than hauling around big laptops ever did.

Lol...Obviously your concept of connectivity and file management is not the same as mine.
The absolutely worst thing about tablets are their nearly useless connectivity options and their non-existent file management capabilities.

Get back to me the day one of these things can read, copy or paste any file to and from any usb stick or device, or let me navigate and manage my files like a proper finder or windows explorer.
At least some Android tablets give you the option to use a micro sd card to do some of this and allow the tablet to show up in a computer's file manager.
I tried an app on the app store that purported to allow some connectivity but the work flow was so cumbersome that it was useless.
 
Even the fastest G4 (~2.0 GHz w/512KB on-chip L2) wouldn't suffice for 90% of people's daily needs today.

You overestimate people's daily needs for much of that 90%. In the highest growth market portions of the world, smart-phones are already outselling PCs and thus sufficing for people's daily needs for personal computing. The majority of this market may never buy a full-size PC.
 
Sharing a lot of components isn't the same as being 'the same'. Time to pick up the dictionary.



Can you prove that the code of iOS is exactly the same as the code of OS X? Because it clearly is not, which makes them different.

Besides, what does the code have to do with anything? Even a child can see that OS X and iOS aren't the one and the same.

It's like this. If you download Ubuntu, and you install Gnome 3 over Unity, is it still Ubuntu? Yeah, it is. It looks considerably different, but it's still the same OS. If you restrict it so that you can only install from a certain repository that only accepts applications programmed in a certain language, is it still Ubuntu? Yup. It's all the same underneath.

Same thing could be said for iOS. They use the same kernel, do they not? So iOS is basically OSX in a more tightly controlled environment with a different UI.

Or if you wanna get all nerdy about it, you could say that iOS is a branch of OSX. No, it's not exactly the same, but arguing that point is splitting hairs over nothing.
 
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