ARM-Based MacBook Air Unlikely Based on Analyst Talk with Tim Cook

[I WAS the one]

Part of Apple's dream was always be the designer of products for people non-geek. Apple (Steve when he was alive) never build products for us (the geek community) Is all part of Apple DNA and History.. One Button Mouse. All In One Machines, Point and Click, Drag and Drop Etc Etc.. I mean I use more the terminal in my iMac than the finder (and I use Pathfinder most of the time when I need a finder structure to work) but it may be intelligent keep going that direction, iOS will become the defacto OS in Apple not so distant future. I bet that the Apple TV will be a TV with a iOS GUI and the iMac soon will be an iOS XL device and more compact. iCloud is here to make Mac users forget about the internal drives and so on... the Mac Pro will be history as soon the Pro apps are release just in iOS systems.

 

[KnightWRX]

It very simple ARM is not powerful enough to run the tools - it like trying to run Windows 7 on 486 - it possible it can be done but not very well.

Considering we've been programming, compiling and linking on computers for the better part of the last 30-40 years, I really doubt modern ARM processors would have problems running the toolchains required for self-hosting development of applications.

GCC runs just fine on a 386 and even much lesser computers. Sure it takes longer, but there's no inherent missing functionality in the ARM architecture that prevents this.

Have you done any development before and actually look at the technical differences between ARM and x86 cpus.. Yes it possible ARM could run a high end OS - but you may have notice with the Windows 8 ARM tablets - they had to strip it down - it just not a powerful enough CPU.

I think you're confused here. What is a high end OS in your view ? Is Linux a high end OS ? NetBSD ? What do you consider a OS anyhow ? A process scheduler, memory manager, a networking stack and a driver infrastructure aren't quite as heavy as you suggest. Is the GUI part what you feel makes something high-end ? We've had GUIs running for the longest time, all the way back to the Xerox Star systems and the first Macintoshes.

So what is it you feel the ARM architecture lacks for a "high-end" OS ?

Even my Core2Duo MacBook AIR would runs circle around any of latest generations ARM including the future quad core ARM. It not the number of cores that make the difference - it power of cpu and it instruction set.

And that level of power is hardly needed to run an OS, much less the applications most of the general populace use each day.

This in additional of application compatibly.

Applications these days are built in high level languages and linked to platform libraries. That's how Linux and the BSDs manage to be portable to many different architectures while retaining quite almost all their application compatibility.

You do know that, having done "development" for a while right ?

I would not doubt a 2011 maybe even my 2010 MacBook AIR could run iPad simulator faster than the actually iPad cpu. if simulator was written correctly to fully emulated the cpu.

Uh ? The iPad simulator runs just fine. That's because Apple doesn't bother to emulate an ARM processor. And wait, are you now saying the C2D in the MBA isn't powerful enough to replicate a Cortex A9 ARM processor in software ? A minute ago it was the opposite...

 

[holmesf]

Maybe someday it will be a dual CPU setup. A normal intel cpu + an ARM proc. and the OS will magically switch between CPUs when needed.

You cannot simply switch between CPUs of different architectures. Not if the programming interface is at the level of the instruction set, anyway. What happens to the register values, interrupts, caches, and TLBs? What about byte order and architecture specific data structures? What of the virtual memory page tables? Such a solution could only work if the lower power CPU were running the same architecture as the faster CPUs. I am willing to bet that in the next decade Intel will incorporate a lower power x86 CPU onto their chips for this purpose, but we will never see an ARM chip running in tandem.

 

[kxbcvoi]

I don't care if it's an Intel CPU, an ARM chip or a hamster. -What- I care about is that it will run real operating systems like Linux and Mac OS X -- and not that crippled piece of junk that iOS is. And I don't care if Apple makes more money with iToys and iOS than the entire African continent makes in a year -- the entire iOS experience sucks.

Did you mean suc(k)ceed?
You should not place yourself at the center of universe because other people are on earth.

 

[KnightWRX]

You cannot simply switch between CPUs of different architectures. Not if the programming interface is at the level of the instruction set, anyway. What happens to the register values, interrupts, caches, and TLBs? What about byte order and architecture specific data structures? What of the virtual memory page tables? Such a solution could only work if the lower power CPU were running the same architecture as the faster CPUs. I am willing to bet that in the next decade Intel will incorporate a lower power x86 CPU onto their chips for this purpose, but we will never see an ARM chip running in tandem.

qEMU in an hypervisor type setup. Just compile your OS for the lowest common denominator (ARM in this case), run a low level hypervisor capable of switching between both, run the ARM code on qEMU while running on the x86_64 chip and natively while running on the lower power ARM processor.

Convulted.

 

[kalsta]

I don't need any MORE evidence. Apple's neglect of Mac OS X in general, and the features of Lion are more than enough.

Lion tacking on some GUI ideas from iOS is like a courier fleet painting their large trucks the same corporate colour as their small vans. To suggest this is strong evidence that the two systems are merging into one is, I'm sorry to say, pretty naive.

In regards to the 'neglect' of OS X, Apple as a company has been known to move staff around depending on the priority of a project, and undoubtedly, improving iOS has been a much higher priority than the more mature OS X in recent years. I have no argument there. That's not surprising considering (1) OS X is a more mature OS, and (2) Apple is currently in a cut-throat battle for dominance in the growing mobile market, whereas the PC market is fairly saturated and on the decline.

So, again… how is any of this evidence that Apple is going to merge the two operating systems into one, or discontinue OS X altogether??

If you don't see it, then no more amount of evidence I could provide would be sufficient short of Steve Jobs himself coming back from the dead to tell you it himself.

Steve Jobs had every opportunity in his final years, as he was sharing intimate details of his life with Walter Isaacson, to predict the death of the PC (and the Mac). He didn't. He predicted that devices like the iPad would begin to outnumber PCs for everyday use, much like cars outnumber trucks on the road. You may note that cars will never completely replace trucks however. For all his faults, he was a smart man and pretty precise with his words—I'm sure he would have used a better analogy had he meant to say that the days of PCs were numbered.

 

[jonnysods]

This rumor doesn't seem 100% shut down to me just yet. But, as some have already said, doing an A6 MBA would involve rewriting OSX. She is already turning into a fat bloated little piggy....

 

[glimp7]

Yes it would be extremely STUPID if Apple would put ARM into a MacBook Air and I believe that is exactly Apple Haters would hope will happen. As for iPad with Intel processor - I would love it if happen - and if you think of it - it is a logical choice with desire to merge the best of iOS with power of Mac OS X.

I have both MacBook Air and iPad 2 and the MacBook Air gets used more. The iPad 2 has limited uses

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How about completely destroy Apple MacBook Air line and respect for Apple.

Are you serious? This sounds like a great idea. Imagine the battery life of a Macbook Air with an ARM-based chip vs Intel, as of now.

If Intel comes out with something more powerful and with comparable battery life, then cool.

 

[jameslmoser]

Lion tacking on some GUI ideas from iOS is like a courier fleet painting their large trucks the same corporate colour as their small vans. To suggest this is strong evidence that the two systems are merging into one is, I'm sorry to say, pretty naive.

In regards to the 'neglect' of OS X, Apple as a company has been known to move staff around depending on the priority of a project, and undoubtedly, improving iOS has been a much higher priority than the more mature OS X in recent years. I have no argument there. That's not surprising considering (1) OS X is a more mature OS, and (2) Apple is currently in a cut-throat battle for dominance in the growing mobile market, whereas the PC market is fairly saturated and on the decline.

So, again… how is any of this evidence that Apple is going to merge the two operating systems into one, or discontinue OS X altogether??



Steve Jobs had every opportunity in his final years, as he was sharing intimate details of his life with Walter Isaacson, to predict the death of the PC (and the Mac). He didn't. He predicted that devices like the iPad would begin to outnumber PCs for everyday use, much like cars outnumber trucks on the road. You may note that cars will never completely replace trucks however. For all his faults, he was a smart man and pretty precise with his words—I'm sure he would have used a better analogy had he meant to say that the days of PCs were numbered.

Post pc era... Ring a bell?

 

[Renzatic]

Post pc era... Ring a bell?

GAME! SET! MATCH!

Naw, just kiddin. That's a dumb argument. Though I will say that the iPad and other tablets will eventually replace the PC...for people who never needed a full fledged, high powered PC to begin with.

KnightWRX used his dad as an example. I'll use my parents. I've bought mom and dad 3 nice laptops over the last 10 years. Pretty stout little machines, too. And what do they use them for? Mom plays solitaire and mahjong, surfs the internet, reads ebooks, and watches movies. Sometimes Netflix, sometimes random videos of cats doing stupid things on Youtube. Dad? His computer usage is turning the computer on, hitting up this one real estate website over and over again, then turning the computer off.

This is practically stuff they could with the very first laptop I bought them back in 2001. Shame they dropped it down the stairs.

Eventually, there'll come a time when they need a new computer. Know what I'm gonna get em? An iPad. It's cheaper, and excels at doing all the things they want to do with their computer. A laptop would be overkill. And they're not the only ones like this. There are millions of people out there who will eventually replace their laptops with a tablet for the very same reasons.

But for most of us here? The hobbyist, the professional, the gamers, and the office workers? It'll be the same ole status quo with an added computing device on the side. The PC isn't dying, it's just reconverting back to being a specialized piece of equipment for those who need it. Much like it was in the 90's.

 

[Hellhammer]

The discussion was about "merging" them.

No, it was not.

Yeah I don't really see it happening because It would mean Apple would have to add support for ARM Processors..

And while I can't say for sure I just don't think they will capable of powering an operating system like Mac OSX Lion with ARM Processors..

The only benefit I can see is better battery life..

Ptsssst... iOS is Mac OS X, don't get confused. It's just a name to categorize devices. Remember the introduction of the iPhone how Steve Jobs was amazed about running Mac OS X on it and how good it was for it. Later they call it iPhone OS ( Mayor Error ) and at the end it has been named iOS but since the begining it has always be Mac OS X (AKA NextStep OS).

They aren't the same. iOS can't run x86 code and OS X can't run ARM code, i.e. you can't run iOS apps in OS X and vice versa.

This was never about merging until you claimed so.

OS X could very much run on ARM as is and iOS could run on x86 as-is also.

And your source is?

 

[smulji]

GAME! SET! MATCH!

Naw, just kiddin. That's a dumb argument. Though I will say that the iPad and other tablets will eventually replace the PC...for people who never needed a full fledged, high powered PC to begin with.

KnightWRX used his dad as an example. I'll use my parents. I've bought mom and dad 3 nice laptops over the last 10 years. Pretty stout little machines, too. And what do they use them for? Mom plays solitaire and mahjong, surfs the internet, reads ebooks, and watches movies. Sometimes Netflix, sometimes random videos of cats doing stupid things on Youtube. Dad? His computer usage is turning the computer on, hitting up this one real estate website over and over again, then turning the computer off.

This is practically stuff they could with the very first laptop I bought them back in 2001. Shame they dropped it down the stairs.

Eventually, there'll come a time when they need a new computer. Know what I'm gonna get em? An iPad. It's cheaper, and excels at doing all the things they want to do with their computer. A laptop would be overkill. And they're not the only ones like this. There are millions of people out there who will eventually replace their laptops with a tablet for the very same reasons.

But for most of us here? The hobbyist, the professional, the gamers, and the office workers? It'll be the same ole status quo with an added computing device on the side. The PC isn't dying, it's just reconverting back to being a specialized piece of equipment for those who need it. Much like it was in the 90's.

I definitely agree with the general idea of your post although instead of getting your parents an iPad there is another option - a Windows 8 tablet which is looking very promising.

 

[Macist]

An ARM MacBook Air would be very cool BUT right now an ARM processor would be a little lacking in processing power over Intel and, assuming we're talking about an OS X machine, we'd be limited to applications that could be easily recompiled.

In other words it'd kinda fall between two stools and have no real niche.

However, ARM processors, before they took over the mobile market, WERE desktop chips, first powering the amazing Acorn Archimedes in the late 80s and 90s. As an architecture there's no reason desktop/workstation class ARM chips couldn't kick Intel in the nuts IF there was some reason in the market to make such chips and a big backer waiting to use them.

I don't think the case for Apple being that backer is compelling enough right now but a few years down the line, if Apple wanted to be a one-architecture shop, it'd be easier to create desktop-class ARMs than expect there to be x86 chips suitable for iPhones and iPads.

 

[gnasher729]

It very simple ARM is not powerful enough to run the tools - it like trying to run Windows 7 on 486 - it possible it can be done but not very well.

The ARM processor in an iPad is miles and miles ahead of a 486. It's a bit ahead of the fastest Pentium IV processors ever built. The graphics is quite decent.

 

[KnightWRX]

And your source is?

Common sense. There's nothing special about iOS that specifically requires ARM as an underlying architecture and there's nothing special about OS X that requires x86 (point, it ran on PPC for quite a while).

So it's even worse, the discussion was about how iOS has always been a fork of OS X, sharing heavily with it, and you made the comment they are completely different based on the CPU architecture.

I guess by that token, there's actually 2 very different OS X Tiger versions. One that runs on PPC and the other on x86. .

 

[michelepri]

Apple is repeating the mistakes of the 1990s

There is no doubt. While they thing transforming all their computers in ITunes running devices is something futuristic, the truth is that the professional base is starting to move away. I know enough people in video production that had been loyal to Apple for years and many of them have already starting migrating to Windows. Compressor hasn't been updated, FCP has been crippled, DVD Studio Pro is a joke, Color has been abandoned, Quicktime X is a joke, OSX Lion didn't innovate anything, only introduced new bugs. And it won't take long before Photoshop users do the same. I'm still waiting before switching to Windows, but I am working with Legacy Apple equipment that won't be updated: Mac Pro, Final Cut Pro 7, Quicktime 7, and Snow Leopard. Once I will need to change, I don't know hat I will do. Go for an iMac or iPad once they discontinue the Mac Pro line or a very fast Windows machine with 24 cores and 200 Gb RAM?

 

[till213]

But of course, this needs to be taken with a grain of salt, as Apple executives have been known to say they're not considering something and then a year later introduce it.

That's the Great Thing(tm) about Rumours(tm): it doesn't matter what your subject sais, you can always go on with even more speculative thoughts and "analysis" - and in the end even be right for once

Cheers, Oliver

 

[till213]

But, as some have already said, doing an A6 MBA would involve rewriting OSX. She is already turning into a fat bloated little piggy....

The part which would really to be re-written when porting OS X to ARM processors is relatively small: any OS has a relatively small part which needs to operate directly with the hardware: de-/allocating memory, entering/leaving "protected mode" etc.

But once you have the hardware-specific parts - again, only a very small percentage of the entire OS code - the rest mostly boils down to a simple re-compile to the target platform (ARM).

And as the ARM architecture even supports both Little and Big Endian the step should be even smaller than the one from PPC (Big Endian) to Intel (Little Endian).


On the other hand, as long as the computation power / energy consumption ratio would not exceed the one from Intel (on the computation power level required to run a full-fledged desktop OS): why would Apple bother? Even more so since every application developer would be required to execute TWO compile runs (and having to support two different architectures etc.).

----------

The part which would really to be re-written when porting OS X to ARM processors is relatively small:

And don't forget that Apple probably has already done that part to a large extend anyway: see iOS (which shares pretty much the same core as OS X, I guess)

 

[hcri50]

MacBook Air running iOS & OS X

A macbook Air that can run both iOS and OS X
This could be done very easily and would make sense. And I can see value for people to purchase a laptop like this. This would be leaps and bounds over anything out there.
robert

 

[KnightWRX]

A macbook Air that can run both iOS and OS X
This could be done very easily and would make sense.

Why run 2 OSes ? I use to have 4 OSes installed on my PC, I was a multi-boot junky. In the end, only 1 OS ever got used.

If you mean those "quick boot/slower boot" type setups, it's not really novel at all, a lot of manufacturer do that using Linux/Windows on existing hardware.

Personally, I don't see the value in running iOS and OS X on the same machine. OS X comes back from sleep quite speedily enough that it doesn't require it.

 

[Rocketman]

If they made an Air with both Intel and ARM boards, it would be able to address a very wide range of software and would act like Rosetta did, to bridge the future ARM only chip Air and Pad, which itself may have an X86 compatibility mode of some sort.

It would be a great bridge product and be more timeless as a result. It would help if it could at least boot an OS version that has Rosetta in it.

Rocketman
Some "Great" Macs of the past
IIsi
8100
PB Ti (dual boot OSX/OS9)

 

[thebeans]

I sure hope not!

Here's all the information you need to know: in just 5 years of iOS (under 2 with the PC successor, the iPad), iOS devices now make up 72% of Apple's earnings as of last quarter.

... and the graph is on a sharp uphill climb. In another year, it's predicted that that number will breach 80%. When 8 out of 10 of your customers are buying an iOS device, when does it make sense to continue supporting the remaining 2 customers? In another 5 years, it'll be under half of 1 customer per 10.

Think of which jobs today can replace a notebook or desktop with an iPad or iPhone: Retail, Mobile sales agents (real estate, pharmaceutical, etc), educators, medical professionals, are just a few I can think of right away. Add in all the jobs that don't require a computer at all, and this represents a significant portion of all jobs. All that remain are niche professionals such as engineers, writers and multimedia content creators.

Writers can easily solve their issue with the addition of a full keyboard. Engineers, Video, photo and audio professionals are those who still need a Mac/PC but some of those are already being addressed.

All you've got left are the manufacturing industry. You won't see iPads running a production line but then again, it's unlikely that you'll have seen a Mac doing that job anyway. These are highly specialized fields that will have customized computers doing the job.

So where does that leave the Mac in the next 10 years?

I sure hope you are not correct. I have an iMac, MacBook Pro, iPad, and iPhone (through work) I like them all. But if I had to have only 1 I would choose the iMac in a heartbeat. There is just no substitute for a nice big screen and a keyboard. The portables are very nice and the portability factor is nice sometimes but if your use/job does not REQUIRE portability, then they can't touch a desktop. If you are correct (I don't think you are) and the Apple world goes away from OSX (or its successors) and completely to portable tablet and phone devices, I would have to do the unthinkable...go back to Windows Not that it matters to anyone, just sayin'

 

[Molecule]

A switch to ARM-based processors for the Mac is highly unlikely at this point in time - ARM chips just aren't powerful enough yet. Now, for the record, I do think Apple will switch from Intel to ARM for the Mac at some point down the track, but I'd say that's at least three years away. In terms of the last transition we had (PPC to Intel), we're currently in about 2003.

I'd also be willing to wager that Apple has an internal version of OS X (not iOS) that runs on ARM, and maybe even a few other architectures (you know, just in case they ever want to go back to PPC ) - they did last time, after all. The bit of the video I'm talking about starts at roughly 4:30.

Back on the topic of performance, I suspect Apple will start pushing OpenCL a lot more for Mac developers (for those of you who aren't aware, OpenCL allows you to use the computer's GPU for non-graphics related tasks). This way, if Apple switched to ARM, much of the heavy lifting could be done by a discreet graphics chip, thereby at least partially negating many of the performance issues I raised earlier.

As I said before, we're currently in 2003, so expect an announcement around mid-2005 (probably at the 2014 WWDC), and for the transition to be completed by late 2007.


Molecule

 

[AidenShaw]

If they made an Air with both Intel and ARM boards...

I've seen post after post saying that the tiny USB 3.0 controller is too big for Apple to put on any laptop.

</sarcasm>

I think that it's unlikely that Apple will find room for two processor families in an MBA.

 

[Molecule]

If they made an Air with both Intel and ARM boards, it would be able to address a very wide range of software and would act like Rosetta did, to bridge the future ARM only chip Air and Pad, which itself may have an X86 compatibility mode of some sort.

It would be a great bridge product and be more timeless as a result.

Rocketman

Apart from being prohibitively expensive, this would also take up too much space in a device the size of a MacBook Air. A software solution of some kind - like Rosetta - would be much more feasible.