Article Suggests iPhone is to Blame for AT&T's Network Failures

[Glideslope]

Which is exactly my point. It's the network, not the phone.

...and will only get worse as Apple moves away from the current deal. Obviously the overall picture will improve with the load being disbursed, but don't expect any warm hugs from at&t.

 

[kdarling]

If exclusivity were with Verizon, the same issue would be occurring, and might even be worse.

It's technically impossible to have the same issues, as the networks have some major differences.

Data speed slowdown with mass users, sure, that could happen. Dropping voice calls because of more data users? No, can't happen. Verizon keeps voice and data comms separate. It's why Verizon can allow things like Slingplayer and VoIP over 3G without worrying about affecting their voice network.

In addition, Verizon's network was designed for CDMA radios from the beginning. ATT's network was designed for TDMA and has had to be retrofitted for WCDMA 3G (UMTS)... which means different (and more) tower placement, something that's taking them extra time and also causes dropped connections.

 

[archipellago]

I have an iPhone for my personal use and a BB for work. Both on ATT. I have noticed my BB gets full signal here at work and is perfect but my iPhone suffers horribly. I said a while ago in one of these the iPhone is God posts that I think the iPhone has a technical flaw. Im not saying ATT is perfect because they are far from it but this might actually make some sense.

winner...!

 

[diamond.g]

It's technically impossible to have the same issues, as the networks have some major differences.

Data speed slowdown with mass users, sure, that could happen. Dropping voice calls because of more data users? No, can't happen. Verizon keeps voice and data comms separate. It's why Verizon can allow things like Slingplayer and VoIP over 3G without worrying about affecting their voice network.

In addition, Verizon's network was designed for CDMA radios from the beginning. ATT's network was designed for TDMA and has had to be retrofitted for WCDMA 3G (UMTS)... which means different (and more) tower placement, something that's taking them extra time and also causes dropped connections.

Sadly, you could type that out a hundred times but some people here will always think that Verizon would have the same (dropped call) problem as AT&T.

 

[alent1234]

If you actually read this thread, you would have seen that operators with exclusive iPhone deals (and therefore a high number of them in their network) routinely have this problem all over the world. I have seen numerous countries mentioned.

The real reason for the problems with AT&T is probably that the manufacturer of AT&T's infrastructure either has been unable to fix it in a firmware update for their cell towers or that upgrading every single cell tower across the US with new firmware would be too costly.

There are many more operators with the same problem, which has been repeated several times in this thread. And as I said earlier, I got first-hand information about Norwegians largest operator noticing these problems prior to the iPhone launch here, and fixing it with a firmware upgrade for their cell towers.

AT&T and VZW share a lot of the towers because they are owned by third party companies. for LTE the third party tower operators are upgrading their towers first.

i brought my in-laws to AT&T from VZW over the summer and they have cheapo AT&T phones. they talk more than I do on them and they never complain about dropped calls. in NYC i always have problems with my iphone.

last year there was a big issue with the 3G and some parts of the country where it wouldn't work right. i bet the same issues are there and i've read technical articles that said that the infeneon chips in the iphone aren't the best or as good as qualcomm and that the way the antenna is designed isn't very good either. i've noticed that a lot of times when i flip my 3GS sideways the signal drops

 

[polaris20]

Sadly, you could type that out a hundred times but some people here will always think that Verizon would have the same (dropped call) problem as AT&T.

That's because most of the "experts" and apologists on an internet forum are completely ignorant about the differences between technologies.

 

[harmonica01]

This is such a scapegoat, I remember how horrible AT&T was even before the introduction of the iPhone. For me, the iPhone kept me with them at contract's end.

 

[seedster2]

AT&T can't keep up with the saturation of data from iPhone users.

If exclusivity were with Verizon, the same issue would be occurring, and might even be worse.

Facepalm...

It's technically impossible to have the same issues, as the networks have some major differences.

Data speed slowdown with mass users, sure, that could happen. Dropping voice calls because of more data users? No, can't happen. Verizon keeps voice and data comms separate. It's why Verizon can allow things like Slingplayer and VoIP over 3G without worrying about affecting their voice network.

In addition, Verizon's network was designed for CDMA radios from the beginning. ATT's network was designed for TDMA and has had to be retrofitted for WCDMA 3G (UMTS)... which means different (and more) tower placement, something that's taking them extra time and also causes dropped connections.

Sadly, you could type that out a hundred times but some people here will always think that Verizon would have the same (dropped call) problem as AT&T.

That's because most of the "experts" and apologists on an internet forum are completely ignorant about the differences between technologies.

Good grief. It's amazing how I keep hearing that different technologies are guaranteed to perform the same way. It's even more troubling to hear the many who will echo the falsehood because of fanaticism

 

[mingoglia]

No one said it is, but AT&T's network clearly sucks. Seems like you are in denial of that.

Canada? Russia? The iPhone has plenty of users there and their land area is much larger than ours.

Correct, but you also have to take into account population density. I'd imagine there's a lot of areas of Canada where there is no service as there's huge areas of the country uninhabited. With regards to Russia, heck I don't know... but I don't recall anyone claiming it was great or crappy. In fact I'm not sure I've ever seen a post from someone from Russia on any forum I've ever been to. 🙂

 

[cmaier]

Correct, but you also have to take into account population density. I'd imagine there's a lot of areas of Canada where there is no service as there's huge areas of the country uninhabited. With regards to Russia, heck I don't know... but I don't recall anyone claiming it was great or crappy. In fact I'm not sure I've ever seen a post from someone from Russia on any forum I've ever been to. 🙂

San Francisco ain't exactly dense.

 

[aristobrat]

It's technically impossible to have the same issues, as the networks have some major differences.

Data speed slowdown with mass users, sure, that could happen. Dropping voice calls because of more data users? No, can't happen. Verizon keeps voice and data comms separate. It's why Verizon can allow things like Slingplayer and VoIP over 3G without worrying about affecting their voice network.

In addition, Verizon's network was designed for CDMA radios from the beginning. ATT's network was designed for TDMA and has had to be retrofitted for WCDMA 3G (UMTS)... which means different (and more) tower placement, something that's taking them extra time and also causes dropped connections.

Do CDMA phones use signaling like GSM phones do?

A source—who requested we not reveal his identity—told Ars that the problem isn't the cell radio hardware, nor the network infrustructure, but an issue with the way that the iPhone OS conserves power. All iPhone apps, including Phone.app, cause the radio to switch from "active" to "idle" mode when accessing the network far more often than traditional phones do. This causes the signaling channel, responsible for such functions as SMS messaging, initiating, maintaining, or ending a phone call, voicemail notifications, and DHCP requests, to become overloaded.

"This can lead to odd effects," the source told Ars. "For example, you could be in an area with perfect 5-bar reception, but because the signalling channel is overloaded your phone won't ring and calls go into voicemail." Our source also said that the iPhone was the first phone to cause this particular problem, but that Android and webOS phones have had a similar effect.

http://arstechnica.com/apple/news/2...tm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=rss

 

[*LTD*]

Simple. The Japanese and Europeans are far ahead of the US when it comes to networks. Not sure if I blame this on the companies or government regulations. Might be a smidgeon of both.

Canada I'm sure is ok in the network front as well . . . 😉

 

[kdarling]

Do CDMA phones use signaling like GSM phones do?

They mean the paging channel (PCH), and yes, both systems use one (or more than one, in the case of CDMA 1xRTT voice + EVDO data networks).

The PCH delivers pages (rings - think "pager") to all phones within a multi-cell paging area. The pages could mean incoming voice calls, data comms, or texts.

To conserve battery, an idling phone only listens to the PCH every 2-5 seconds, during an assigned paging channel timeslot. If it hears a page for itself, the phone comes alive and instantly replies to the tower, which assigns the phone its own transfer channel to use until it goes back to sleep.

There can be a PCH overload situation if too many pages come at one time. Everything backs up, and soon the system is waiting for replies, and any further rings or texts or data ... to anyone in the paging area... are impossible.

(Under normal circumstances, paging channel overload should only happen during deliberate denial of service attacks... or temporarily with incoming flash crowd calls within a paging area. There are also various patented methods of preventing it that networks can employ.)

A source—who requested we not reveal his identity—told Ars that the problem isn't the cell radio hardware, nor the network infrustructure, but an issue with the way that the iPhone OS conserves power. All iPhone apps, including Phone.app, cause the radio to switch from "active" to "idle" mode when accessing the network far more often than traditional phones do.

This causes the signaling channel, responsible for such functions as SMS messaging, initiating, maintaining, or ending a phone call, voicemail notifications, and DHCP requests, to become overloaded.

What the Arstechnica source seems to be saying, is that the iPhone goes into power saving idle mode too often. Therefore if the iPhone is waiting for data or push notifications to dribble in, the phone has to be woken up more often... which requires an extra incoming data wakeup page. So supposedly lots of iPhones in a cell paging area can cause a PCH overload.

That's the gist of it. I hope I made it understandable. Now whether it's true or not, I don't know. If it is true, then networks could and should make adjustments for it... or do better testing and not certify the phone until its behavior is changed.

 

[mingoglia]

San Francisco ain't exactly dense.

By dense I'm also taking into account the density of the user base.... you gotta lotta high bandwidth folks up there.

I can't believe I'm in a forum defending ATT. Yeah I've had them for a long time. Yeah I have pretty good luck with them, at least in Phoenix.... I'm certainly not a fan though. I just don't hate them as much as most. 🙂

 

[cmaier]

By dense I'm also taking into account the density of the user base.... you gotta lotta high bandwidth folks up there.

I can't believe I'm in a forum defending ATT. Yeah I've had them for a long time. Yeah I have pretty good luck with them, at least in Phoenix.... I'm certainly not a fan though. I just don't hate them as much as most. 🙂

but we also probably have as high a concentration of people using verizon aircards and android phone as anywhere (in the SF bay area), and, again, it's AT&T customers who can't ever get a signal, not verizon customers.

 

[mingoglia]

but we also probably have as high a concentration of people using verizon aircards and android phone as anywhere (in the SF bay area), and, again, it's AT&T customers who can't ever get a signal, not verizon customers.

I'll certainly conced that point, particularly on the aircards as I know they're popular. I have 3 of them, one for myself, and 2 for employees. Not sure the amount of androids can compare to iphones though. The last time I was in San Fran it seemed like the iPhone was the official phone of the city. 😀

 

[archipellago]

I don't think there's much doubt...in the real, non blinkered world that the iPhone performance as an actual phone, quality and reception wise is substandard.

I can go to areas where I have reception with another phone but nothing on the iPhone.

My iPhone has now been offically unlocked and so I have tried 2 other Networks and the result is the same.

Virtually any other phone (3g. EDGE or GPRS) is better at obtaining and keeping a signal.

Not saying ATT are good but the iPhone hardware is definitely a handicap for any Network Operator.

 

[Goona]

Yeah I wonder why all the GSM carriers aren't dropping their outdated GSM networks for CDMA heaven.

 

[Goona]

If you actually read this thread, you would have seen that operators with exclusive iPhone deals (and therefore a high number of them in their network) routinely have this problem all over the world. I have seen numerous countries mentioned.

The real reason for the problems with AT&T is probably that the manufacturer of AT&T's infrastructure either has been unable to fix it in a firmware update for their cell towers or that upgrading every single cell tower across the US with new firmware would be too costly.

There are many more operators with the same problem, which has been repeated several times in this thread. And as I said earlier, I got first-hand information about Norwegians largest operator noticing these problems prior to the iPhone launch here, and fixing it with a firmware upgrade for their cell towers.

Dude please show me where all iphone users are having this problem all over the world. I have used the iphone in Canada, USA, Germany, and Ghana in Africa and have never experienced such problems.

 

[diamond.g]

Yeah I wonder why all the GSM carriers aren't dropping their outdated GSM networks for CDMA heaven.

If you think about it in terms of air interface, they all did 😉

 

[Goona]

iPhone flaws do exist in Canada. iPhones? Not so much.

Do you live in Canada, I guess all those iphones I see around in Toronto are figments of my imagination. 🙄

 

[kdarling]

Yeah I wonder why all the GSM carriers aren't dropping their outdated GSM networks for CDMA heaven.

If you knew anything about GSM phones at all, you'd know that they added a separate WCDMA radio for 3G. (CDMA radios allow for more users and greater bandwidth than a 2G GSM radio.)

While not compatible, it's derived from the same roots as the CDMA radio used by carriers such as Sprint or Verizon.

If you think about it in terms of air interface, they all did 😉

Indeed.

 

[Goona]

If you knew anything about GSM phones at all, you'd know that they added a separate WCDMA radio for 3G. (CDMA radios allow for more users and greater bandwidth than a 2G GSM radio.)

While not compatible, it's derived from the same roots as the CDMA radio used by carriers such as Sprint or Verizon.



Indeed.

What does the drivel you wrote have to do with carriers dropping CDMA and moving onto GSM. Latest carriers to do this are Bell and Telus in Canada. Soon only Verizon and Sprint will be holding onto that relic. But anyways keep deluding yourself into believing that your CDMA is part of GSM. Your inferior technology is being dropped dead, time to move on just like the many carriers moving on.

 

[diamond.g]

What does the drivel you wrote have to do with carriers dropping CDMA and moving onto GSM. Latest carriers to do this are Bell and Telus in Canada. Soon only Verizon and Sprint will be holding onto that relic. But anyways keep deluding yourself into believing that your CDMA is part of GSM. Your inferior technology is being dropped dead, time to move on just like the many carriers moving on.

Really? So CDMA has nothing to do with WCDMA. Please note that I am not talking about CDMA2000 which again only shares the air interface (at the basic they are both using code division multiple access sense).

 

[bergmef]

What does the drivel you wrote have to do with carriers dropping CDMA and moving onto GSM. Latest carriers to do this are Bell and Telus in Canada. Soon only Verizon and Sprint will be holding onto that relic. But anyways keep deluding yourself into believing that your CDMA is part of GSM. Your inferior technology is being dropped dead, time to move on just like the many carriers moving on.

Gotta love people that only know buzzwords.

WCDMA

(Wideband Code Division Multiple Access)

Wideband CDMA is a third-generation (3G) wireless standard which utilizes one 5 MHz channel for both voice and data, initially offering data speeds up to 384 Kbps. WCDMA is the 3G technology used in the US by AT&T and T-Mobile.

Link -> http://www.phonescoop.com/glossary/term.php?gid=104