Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
I understand the contract, I can't believe that what I write is ignored so much. I said

I disagree with the contract
tethering is not an option
I have unlimited data.

I hurt no one.


If you disagree with teh contract, than don't sign it. Either abide by the terms outlined or do not sign. You may not have the best of both worlds, but that is not an implied right.


Also because its in a contract does not mean its legal and binding.......been over this so many times,
(Do not write in caps its shouting on the internet).

Fine, try and take AT&T to court on it. In the mean time, we have to consider it valid. I doubt that you will succeed in convincing a judge that AT&T terms are illegal in any way since you are not forced to enter into a contract with them in the first place.

Exactly what standing do you have (other than a personal opinion) that the contract is invalid. Can you cite any legal doctrine on this - I guarantee you thats the first thing a judge is going to ask for.
ETA 2: Rhodius explained it much better. The unlimited data plan specifically covers the phone and nothing else.
 
Last edited:
I don't really care about people's opinions about the ethical question (I'm on a limited, 2GB plan and will not be convinced that I am doing anything wrong by tethering). What I want to know is if there are any MyFi users that have low data usage that are being sent this message (I doubt I'll spend 500MB a month tethering).

Where should I go if I'm only looking for facts about who is receiving these messages and theories as to who exactly will be threatened thusly? I don't want to have to sift through these opinions that I care nothing about.

Google MyFi forums. They have a thread just like this one where several people have been sent the message even with low usage (less than 5gb). It doesn't sound as if usage matter's on tethering. You either are or your not according to AT&T.
 
I understand the contract, I can't believe that what I write is ignored so much. I said

I disagree with the contract
This a valid point - just very hard to support w/o the courts involvement. Many people on this thread don't believe that the tethering clause is illegal.
tethering is not an option
AT&T has no obligation to provide mix and match plans to your convenience, but if you first point holds it doesn't matter.
I have unlimited data.
Not really relevant. If you first point holds, the type of plan doesn't matter. Nothing in the contract terms suggest that unlimited or limited plans differ in regards to tethering. Neither unlimited or 2GB allow it.

Just trying to keep the discussion focused :rolleyes:
 
Dear Howdr, if you don't feel like your doing anything wrong just call AT&T and ask them specifically. Just explain to them who you are, how long you've been a customer, you pay your bills in a timely manner. I would say in a calm and pleasant voice that data=data and that you should be able to tether under your rules. I'm sure they will make an exception just for you and give you a free tethering pass for life!
 
I disagree with the contract

Funny.

You can't really disagree with a contract you've agreed to. You may not have had an opportunity to negotiate with ATT what you wanted but once you accepted it you agreed to it, legally speaking.
 
Yeah you could and of course you could balance that against them trying to pursue getting criminal charges filed against you for theft of service... So the likelihood you are going to steal from AT&T and then sue them for modifying your contract unilaterally is pretty slim, and they know that.

Yes, AT&T is very likely to encourage police to charge thousands of customers in dozens of jurisdictions with theft of service. ;) It would be a class action suit and not one AT&T would win.
 
I wonder if there is any type of compensation for turning offenders in. Hahaha. Like I get a free month or 2 of service. What an incentive. Hahaha.

Has anyone that has been alerted been switched to a tethering plan yet by AT&T?
 
Yes, AT&T is very likely to encourage police to charge thousands of customers in dozens of jurisdictions with theft of service. ;) It would be a class action suit and not one AT&T would win.
Why bother when they can exercise the clause in their contracts and either charge consumers for the specified plans or just outright disconnect them. It's far easier to do that ever though your idea is quite wrong. I have little doubt that AT&T would win.
 
Why bother when they can exercise the clause in their contracts and either charge consumers for the specified plans or just outright disconnect them. It's far easier to do that ever though your idea is quite wrong. I have little doubt that AT&T would win.

You can't modify the contract by upgrading them under contract law. That does not estimate damages AT&T suffered through the tethering nor was it estimated to be the damages at the time the contract was created. The unilateral modification clause is not valid.

A termination would be valid, however.
 
does anyone know of anyone yet who has actually had their plan switched, been taken to court, or otherwise punished for doing this? Probably not.

You can all argue till you're blue in the face about how ethical it is, whether or not there are legal issues involved etc, but until people ACTUALLY feel any effect of this more than a stupid text message nothing is going to change. Chances are even if they do take action they won't expend the energy to hit everyone, it will be some small percentage and things still won't change. I know the people swinging from AT&Ts nuts here will deny it up and down and swear they'll catch everyone and save the daaay.....but meanwhile...back in the real world, everything stays the same.
 
does anyone know of anyone yet who has actually had their plan switched, been taken to court, or otherwise punished for doing this? Probably not.

You can all argue till you're blue in the face about how ethical it is, whether or not there are legal issues involved etc, but until people ACTUALLY feel any effect of this more than a stupid text message nothing is going to change. Chances are even if they do take action they won't expend the energy to hit everyone, it will be some small percentage and things still won't change. I know the people swinging from AT&Ts nuts here will deny it up and down and swear they'll catch everyone and save the daaay.....but meanwhile...back in the real world, everything stays the same.

LOL, it's only been a week! The villains have until March 27th to correct their actions. Gotta love the "It's not gonna happen to me" mentality in here!
 
Last edited:
keep ooooon swingin buddy :)

It's been a week since enough people saw this to post about it. Longer than that since AT&T took notice of it and started to address it. 1 week, 5 months...won't matter. Revisit this thread at the end of the year, see if people aren't still tethering with miwi, etc with no problem. This thread will be more of a joke then it already is probably just a few months from now...

"it's not gonna happen to me" mentality?....mmmm kinda. More like "it's not going to happen to a significan't number of people to make a dent in stopping this, and I could care less if it does happen to me."
 
Last edited:
Dear Howdr, if you don't feel like your doing anything wrong just call AT&T and ask them specifically. Just explain to them who you are, how long you've been a customer, you pay your bills in a timely manner. I would say in a calm and pleasant voice that data=data and that you should be able to tether under your rules. I'm sure they will make an exception just for you and give you a free tethering pass for life!
I would If I could afford to go to another carrier at this time.

I'd like to think you are sarcastic when you post this.

I have a position that comes into conflict with At&t's contract, why would I call them? They have already stated their position and I'm stating mine.

I'm not confronting them because I am using self help to take care of my personal position.

What about this, every time you go over the posted speed limit you call the local police and tell them, you Licensed plate number, name and adress to send the ticket.

You disagree with the speed limits, you break them right? So why not confront the authorities about?

You made an illegal turn or did not yeild right of way, why not turn yourself in?

I mean jeesh............ I'm doing nothing but using my data as are others and you all turn it into a Major Federal Case of racketeering or something.

People ther is no difference between streaming a video and tethering.

Data=Data and nothing on this thread has proven otherwise.

This argument is going in circles

When you go over the speed limit or doing illegal things like fooling with your cell phone in your car you are truly breaking a law

when we tether we are not even breaking a law, we are just using our data plan...............( no a contract is not a law, its an agreement and in this case it was negotiated you have no say in it)



Rodimus Prime: I think it is more you are ignoring what we have been telling you time and time again. Also it is pretty clear YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND THE CONTRACT.
I understand it and disagree with it, stop telling me I do not understand

Usage of charge for the unlimited data usage is based off of a model. That model is assumed data usage of the PHONE ONLY. Tethering increasing the average usage of a person so it throws off the model on how they charge which is why there was always an increased fee to teather to account for the higher average usage of the person.
No this is not correct, unlimited Data is unlimited Data can't be defined by a "Model"AT&t can easily discontinue it and start a 5gb if they want, they have in the past, I have the proof.

Also you are wrong on the fact that you hurt other people because of your higher usage you are sucking down more of the the very limited bandwidth that others can no longer use.
Doesn't matter, KB is KB I'm not the one who keeps arguing somehow magically the laptop makes 3G faster Sir or (Madam)

Also from an earlier post it where you say it can not be proven if you are teathering multiple ones of us has shown it is very easy to do to figure out with out any question if you are tethering your phone. You just look at the data for example and see if there is an extra hop in there. and if there is an extra hop boom you are teathering. there are other ways as well.
So far on all the forums I have visited not one person has any proof that At&t can tell and At&t has been unable to produce the proof to the said offenders, they have a legal right to see the evidence if they are accused.

My argument is based on facts Sir or Madam I see plenty of emotion from others here. I Pay my bills each month, I rarely tether, I use less then 1gb a month and have an unlimited plan but I want the freedom to use the plan when I need it. Whats the use of unlimited if you do not use it Or cannot use it? Also I pay more a month the the average since the average is 25 for data my plan is 30, its 30 because its more data......(Hint)

Lastly I thought this was clear:

Originally Posted by Howdr
I understand the contract, I can't believe that what I write is ignored so much. I said

I disagree with the contract
tethering is not an option
I have unlimited data.


I hurt no one.


Also because its in a contract does not mean its legal and binding.......been over this so many times,.
 
Last edited:
when we tether we are not even breaking a law, we are just using our data plan...............( no a contract is not a law, its an agreement and in this case it was negotiated you have no say in it)

Your contract defines the scope of your service. Since tethering is beyond the scope of your service agreement, it's Theft of Service.

Similarly to how accessing premium cable content while paying for basic cable is Theft of Service.

This would need to go to court to establish it's legality, but there is president to suggest that it is theft.
 
Howdr, if I were you i'd surely get an attorney. Clearly you aren't doing anything wrong. :rolleyes:
 
Disagree

Howdr,

If you disagreed with the contract why did you sign it?

I wish I could be there when AT&T changes your plan or terminates your service for breach of contract.

What's your excus going to be? I was only tethering some of the time lol
 
Having read a great many of the comments on this thread, I'd like to add my $0.02. Let me preface by saying that I am JB and that I rarely tether. With that said, I feel tethering should be free with any type of data plan. However, there should be a limit with respect to people that tether as their primary means of access to the internet on a laptop or desktop. What that limit should be set at is something I am not about to suggest. I'm using the logic that my unlimited data is merely being plugged into a bigger screen (my laptop). I'm still accessing the web, but on a larger screen!!!! BIG DEAL!!!!! That's the only reason I tether because I have broadband at home. I also DO NOT have their rip off $20 month texting fee because I use textfee with my own assigned number. No issues whatsoever!!! My bill is less than $80 bucks a month with taxes. Now, as to how you can get even with these morons?? Take your JB phone and continuously play Netflix all day. Talk about burning 3G data!!!!
 
Take your JB phone and continuously play Netflix all day. Talk about burning 3G data!!!!

Feel free. Using data on your device is exactly what you plan is meant for.

However keep in mind that this serves to enforce the need for them to take action against other users for usage outside of the TOS. If they didn't, they wouldn't be able to support your 'needs'.
 
It may be in the contract that tethering without a tethering plan is disallowed. But the courts are filled with cases where one party contests a provision in a contract. Just because it's in a contract does not make it enforceable. It may not matter that you agreed. If the provision is determined unenforceable by the court, then it no longer becomes a part of the contract. If the case were heard in court and upheld upon appeal, then that court decision would let everyone know if the provision was indeed either enforceable or unenforceable.

My contention is that AT&T is charging it's customers twice for the same data. I personally don't find this fair and think a reasonable arguement could be made that AT&T's tethering provision is unenforceable. Obviously others here and (I'm sure) AT&T's lawyers feel to the contrary. But until someone decides to take AT&T to court over this provision, then we can argue here all day long with no winners or losers.
 
It may be in the contract that tethering without a tethering plan is disallowed. But the courts are filled with cases where one party contests a provision in a contract. Just because it's in a contract does not make it enforceable. It may not matter that you agreed. If the provision is determined unenforceable by the court, then it no longer becomes a part of the contract. If the case were heard in court and upheld upon appeal, then that court decision would let everyone know if the provision was indeed either enforceable or unenforceable.

My contention is that AT&T is charging it's customers twice for the same data. I personally don't find this fair and think a reasonable arguement could be made that AT&T's tethering provision is unenforceable. Obviously others here and (I'm sure) AT&T's lawyers feel to the contrary. But until someone decides to take AT&T to court over this provision, then we can argue here all day long with no winners or losers.

This is especially true, and I would say that a contract that allows for a provision giving AT&T carte blanche to add charges without prior authorization by the user would be thrown out.
 
Howdr,

If you disagreed with the contract why did you sign it?

I wish I could be there when AT&T changes your plan or terminates your service for breach of contract.

What's your excus going to be? I was only tethering some of the time lol

I signed mine in 2007 it was not in the contract then.............

I have never received a letter and never will. I'm 100% sure of that.

Why did you sign your contract LOL

I'd love to be there to see your reaction when tethering becomes free like it should be.



Your contract defines the scope of your service. Since tethering is beyond the scope of your service agreement, it's Theft of Service.
for the thousand time something must be stolen to be theft, again what has been stolen. Tethering is a switch and data is data.
Similarly to how accessing premium cable content while paying for basic cable is Theft of Service.
I'm not stealing cable just using my data

This would need to go to court to establish it's legality, but there is president to suggest that it is theft.
for it to be theft again something has to be stolen, because its in the contract does not mean a court will agree its a chargeable item, it may not be as I feel. Its a switch.

Is it me or are there a core of 4 people who jump on anyone that thinks tethering is ok? I mean why? Why do we need to keep debating this? this thread is becoming useless............
 
Last edited:
There is nothing wrong with tethering, if you buy the service and pay for it.

If you steal it, then that is something different. Nobody has a problem with tethering, they just have a problem with people stealing it. Same way a lot of people have had issues with people who steal cable tv, or pretty much anything else.

In this case it is worse because people stealing tethering are using up limited resources that belong to other users. So it impacts everyone else.

I don't feel that steak in the grocery store is a chargeable item, and I already got $100 worth of groceries I will just take it. Keep trying to convince yourself that stealing is not stealing. The justifications are weak and shallow but if they let you sleep at night, whatever.

It is clear that a lot of people here don't understand how contracts and contract law works. If two parties agree to terms in a contract, it is legal and consideration is offered it is valid. There is no special loophole where you just get out of a contract because you feel like they should include it. The contract specifically outlines that you can not use their normal service for tethering. Again the contract contains consideration for both sides, so there is nothing illegal or invalid about it. Nobody forced anyone to sign the contract, it was a choice you made when you signed up for the service. You gave them money they gave you service. The service they provide you is very clearly spelled out in the contract.

Some of you seem to think there is some magical contract land o fairy dust where you can nullify contracts because you don't like them or did not bother to read them.

Beyond all this silliness, again those of you saying that it should be included just don't get it. If AT&T includes it then they just raise the price for everyone. That is the ONLY result. There is no fairytale ending where you force AT&T to give you unlimited tethering or included tethering for the same price. That doesn't happen, yet it is clear for some weird reason many of you think that is possible.


You can't modify the contract by upgrading them under contract law. That does not estimate damages AT&T suffered through the tethering nor was it estimated to be the damages at the time the contract was created. The unilateral modification clause is not valid.

A termination would be valid, however.


And that is what ultimately will happen to people. If they refuse to have the tethering added on, then their contract will be terminated.
 
Last edited:
No

there are about 4 people on here who think that Contracts are Law and the last word.

In the past these contracts have been successfully challenged.

I have said over and over you have to have something stolen to be theft, the only thing that is being recorded as used is data, and in that nothing is being stolen, its not proven that AT&t is even keeping records of anything but data used. Theories are abound but no proof of anything.

So repeating that people will be affected over and over is not proven yet, if it happens I'm sure it will be news.

Tethering is not an option when you have unlimited

for some reason these 4 people ignore that there may be another position and keep posting over and over the same thing

and I think its on the brink of offensive now.

Unless there is something new to say........... no reason to keep posting the same thing.
 
Read my new post, ;)




This makes no logical sense, Unlimited Data and using more Data then you paid for?..................... Again this logic is based on emotions not facts.

Fact Unlimited
Fact cannot overuse Unlimited

I suspect I have been running businesses and selling usage based services before you were alive. I also suspect you have no actual experience with this from the standpoint of running any kind of business. So forgive me when I take my word and understanding of how providing usage based services to customer bases actually work.


And I read your statement about Data usage, you contend that all Unlimited plan users are using too much data when they go over 2gb?
Because At&t expects the average user to use 300mb? I'm not sure we are talking about Unlimited then? What are we talking about?

AT&T sets their price for 2gigs of usage based on what the average user consumes, not on what it would cost them to provide 2 gigs of service to every customer. If they charged every costumer how much it would cost AT&T for every customer to use 2 gigs of service every month, then cost would be close to $100 a month for everyone. AT&T unlikely has to resources to have all their customers to use 2 gigs a month.

Companies oversell resources in situations like this because it allows them to offer things for a more affordable price. I recommend you take some basic statistics classes and get a feeling for how numbers work and how averages work and all the rest.

A simple example is say AT&T has two customers. Customer A uses 250 megs of data a month. Customer B uses 1.3 gigs of data every month.

Let us say AT&T's cost for supplying data is $2 per 100 megs. With 1.55 gigs used, the cost for AT&T to supply that data is $31.

AT&T reviews this and determines to cover their costs and make a profit, they need to charge each customer $25 a month. So the revenue they make from those 2 customers is $50. The money left over after paying for the cost of supplying the data is $19 a month.

Now say AT&T introduces tethering. It is unlikely anyone will start using less data when they use tetheirng. The first month of tethering, Customer A uses 250 megs of data, and Customer B uses their full 2 gigs. So now AT&T has to pay for supplying 2.25 gigs of data at $2 per 100 megs. The total cost for AT&T to supply that data is $45. That leaves AT&T with a gross net of only $5 to pay for all their other expenses and make a profit. They end up losing money.

At this point AT&T has a couple of options. They could raise the price for everyone. Say raise the monthly fee for 2 gigs of data to $35 a month. This would leave them with a $18 gross net per month, which is pretty much what they had before tethering. The problem with that is customer A is not tethering, not using any more data yet is paying more per month, just because of Customer B.

The other option is they can charge Customer B $20 for tethering. Now AT&T has $70 of revenue with $45 of expenses and they are back in the ballpark of covering all their expenses and making money. This is the route AT&T has chosen to take, and most people think it is the right route. The only people who disagree are those who want others to pay for their data.

Now take the example that AT&T would charge a price to cover the ability for every customer to use 2 gigs a month. That is 4 gigs total usage, at $2 per 100 megs, that would be $80 in expenses. Allowing them to keep their same amount of gross revenue, that would mean they would need to charge about $50 a month per user.

This is how an average usage based business works. This is how they price their services, this is how they make money. You, for some reason, think AT&T should make much less money or lose money or someone else should pay more to subsidize your usage. AT&T and everyone else disagrees with you.



Fact arguing is useless when its emotional...............

Certainly nothing emotional about me in this discussion. I have presented the facts, I have actual real world experience and understanding of the issues. You seem to be upset that you won't be able to continue stealing tethering from AT&T. If anyone is emotional here it is certainly you.



As far as calculating what you make and what your customers use has nothing with providing a service and what in reality people use. If you run a service business they may or may not use it.

Again you have to learn about statistics and human behavior. It is all very predictable. The more customers you have the more predictable it becomes. What any single user does in a given month is 100% irrelevant to how AT&T sets their pricing.


If you sell plans to at $100 a pop on computers that would fix them for free or replace them knowing that over 90% will not use the plan in the end based on years past, then 6 months from that figure rose to 70% using the plan to fix and or replace, its not the customers fault you have provided the plan. that is comparable to people using unlimited, if At&t wants people to stop using 50gb a month, then At&t must discontinue the plan. Its At&t's fault not theirs.

AT&T's plan for unlimited data NEVER allowed for tethering. You seem to think it did but it did not. The reason why they never did anything about it before was they had no way to offer additional usage for people who needed more, and felt it would be hard to force people who needed more data into a corner where they couldn't get it even if they wanted to pay for it.

Now they have taken care of their legitimate customers who want to pay for their tethering, they can go after the criminals.


I Hurt no one by tethering it can't be proven because no one has proven it.

AT&T's cellular data resources are finite. They also cost money to use. When you use them for tethering without paying for it, you are causing the costs for AT&T to go up. So you are stealing money from them. That directly hurts them and their shareholders. On top of that it ultimately causes prices to go up for other customers to make up for your stealing.

Your illegal tethering actually negatively impacts millions of other people.


At&t want to collect more money and more fees thats all it is.

And you want to steal something, that is all it is.


I feel there are some At&t employees posting on here these days.

I feel there are some criminals posting on here these days.
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.