AT&T to Face Net Neutrality Complaint Regarding FaceTime Over Cellular Limitation

[tbrinkma]

AT&T don't own Skype. The rules state that if the CARRIER has a competing product, they can't limit the competition.

Yep. This is an example of a regulation being written *too* tightly. The spirit of the rule is there to prevent the carrier from forcing you to use *their* service because all the competing, third-party services are denied or hamstrung by the carrier. I don't think anyone imagined that a carrier would be motivated to hamstring a service that they *don't* compete with.

On the other hand, it could be argued that a video-chat service doesn't *only* compete with other video-chat services, but rather that it competes with voice communication services as well. Under that interpretation, AT&T is screwed.

Anyone have any bets as to what the courts will decide? (Realistic takers only, please.)

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Here is a little educational photo on greed at its FINEST!

If you don't want the AT&T services you don't have to buy them. If you don't want to pay $29 for this Apple 20cent adapter, you have to buy a new on .30cent cable marked up to $39.

I think you're in the wrong thread. The adapters you're frothing about have absolutely nothing to do with AT&T.

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AT&T has to be on the verge of making that decision.

I don't doubt it for a minute. As much as it will suck for some people, it's simply not worth the flood of vitriol we see on these forums about virtually everything.

I'm planning to change over to the shared plans, regardless of whether they get rid of the unlimited plans all together. It'll save my wife and I about $20/month based on our actual data usage, *and* give me tethering so I can get on the internet with my iPad or laptop when I'm away from WiFi. I just need to double-check my numbers before making the switch.

 

[moderngamenewb]

So what are the chances of AT&T actually giving people FaceTime who are not on the new shared data plans?

I bet that they will then say that it is available for those who are at a tiered data plan, and that you can't use your unlimited data plan for it, just like how you can't use your phone as a hotspot with the unlimited data plan. I hope that FaceTime will end up being allowed to be used with the unlimited data plan.

 

[VenusianSky]

If iPhone users can't use a service or services, then people won't buy iPhone's from AT&T. Sales will drop and AT&T or Apple will have to do something about it.

So your quote doesn't hold much water.

Your quote holds about as much water as mine, probably less. You sound very confident with these predictions. Can you give me the upcoming lottery numbers?

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Agreed.

But I was trying to give an example of how absurd it is and to bring it into perspective. I pay for data...I should be able to use it how I want - be it playing a game online, using skype, browsing the internet, watching youtube, OR FaceTime.

BTW: Skype works just fine over cellular and I use it on my iP4. The problem is not everyone has the skype app installed, with a username setup, with me on their friends list. FaceTime already has the infrastructure in place.

I hear you. However, I have realized that all US cell companies have something to complain about, so I find it not worth complaining at all if I am going to continue to use a cell phone.

 

[Mr Fusion]

The bulk of iPhone owners in the States are on AT&T, which stands to reason the bulk of users on this board in the States are on AT&T. I only have one thing to say to you:

Quit your ********. Every negative AT&T article in this forum has two things in common: People whining about how evil their carrier is, and the same people continuing to stick it to the man by.. continuing to use and pay for said carrier.

Either get a new carrier or get off this thread. And when you get off your soapbox, I'll get down off my high horse.

 

[iLucas]

Never have been a fan of At&t. Dropped them after they upgraded my unlimited plan to a 4GB one and they said I was abusing the data. I used ~6-7 gb a month.

 

[Akuratyde]

You are correct. AT&T sells a service. They sell data. AT&T told you before they sold you the data that Facetime would not be allowed. You purchased it by your own free choice under those conditions. Plain and simple.

AT&T has always been very clear Facetime wouldn't be allowed. Where is the ethical dilemma? I think its unethical for consumers who knew that they signed an AT&T contract knowing full well that AT&T wouldn't allow Facetime, then say that AT&T has "ethical obligations" to provide that service.

Facetime wasn't allowed before because it wasn't possible with the software installed on the phone, not because AT&T wouldn't allow it. How has AT&T been clear that they would never allow it? I have been an AT&T customer for 5 years and this was never communicated directly to me in any capacity. I stand by my point, consumers should be free to choose how they use their data.

 

[JerseyDoug]

You completely miss the point. FaceTime replaces existing revenue (talk minutes). As the network improves voice over data becomes as good or better than talk - O great, change you unlimited talk to the bare minimum, save a ton of money, hurts AT&T's bottom line.

Nope. Your changing arguments. Replacing a revenue stream is not the same incurring additional costs. Besides, FaceTime is only between apple products, isn't it? And, if apple were to unbundle it, AT&T wouldn't charge extra for it.

Btw, I don't have a horse in this race. I'm on Verizon and don't pay extra for FaceTime. Which, btw, is of little use to me. Tried it once with my daughter and it sucked. Big time.

I'm not a big fan of VoIP. Especially when doing a web ex presentation. Unworkable.

 

[iLeoMarc]

You whiners need to get over it. AT&T is a business and therefore it makes business decisions. When AT&T offered unlimited data, devices simply didn't use that much, they were slow, apps were slow, steaming movies and videos through cellular technology wasn't quite here yet, etc.

Now data consumption has gone through the roof and AT&T has to manage their costs. You are bunch of entitled babies that expect businesses to operate at a loss to give you the service you think you deserve. You are lucky they didn't strip away your unlimited data already. Businesses are NOT in business for the good of humanity. They are here to make a profit. They make a profit by providing goods or services at a price where we can FREELY choose to trade our hard earned dollars for that service. If you don't like the service they provide, STOP freely CHOOSING to trade your dollars for their service. It's as simple as that.

Economics 101... In the cellular industry, there are barriers to entry, particularly economies of scale. This creates a distortion on prices for cellular services. BTW adam smith, says that when individuals pursue their own self interest, they promote the good of society. But sure you can BOLD all those laissez-faire economic words and hope it sticks. Consumer reaction to a business decision is very much allowed in the interaction between business, government & society.

 

[iphoneclassic]

Having read a good portion of this thread, I really wonder how many percent of the people whining about AT&T's decision have unlimited data plans that they don't want to lose.

For me, I have 200 MB data plan, which I was about 20$ per month (if I remember correctly). So, in any case, though I love FaceTime, using it over cellular is out of option for me, so I do not really care about AT&T's decision.

I totally understand that people with unlimited data plans did pay (and have been paying) at some time for it and they do deserve it, however they have to understand ---as somebody else pointed out--- that cellular technology changed a lot from the day you got your plans. With LTE on the way and HD front camera, you could easily consume GBs of data over a 30-40 minute talk with FaceTime. At some point, somebody will need to pay for this and I really doubt that what you pay AT&T for your unlimited data plan really covers all those GBs.

Unlimited data plan no longer exists with most of the companies for a good reason, because the definition of unlimited really started to become scary. For a plan that does not exist anymore, you should either stick with it and use it limited (defined by AT&T) or switch to another plan that permits FaceTime calls and just pay for your cellular usage. If you don't want to pay anything extra, just use FaceTime over WiFi, nobody (except your Wifi provider) is asking anything for it.

I can definitely understand people who have limited (or shared) data plans not liking this decision, however again from AT&T's perspective, I think if they would say that they would only lock FaceTime for unlimited data plans, than that would create even a bigger response from people with unlimited data plans. That is why ---I believe--- they just created a new plan (considering data usage needs and the money they need to make profit) and decided that FaceTime over cellular will only be available for that plan. I really do not see a big problem here.

Your assumption is only people who has(grandfathered) unlimited data plans are complaining. AT&T has been pushing most of the unlimited data users to capped data plans. With LTE it is now 5GB full speed and throttle.

So what about customers with 3GB plan and using 300MB a month. Why can't they use remaining data for FaceTime. I guess one should burn remaining data by video streaming, May be there is an app for that.

 

[JuBe]

Because when unlimited data was originally offered, you didn't have as much capability to suck down data and clog up the network as you do now with HSPA+, LTE, and native video calling over retina screens and HD cameras. You can't realistically expect for the carriers to be able to handle unlimited data (at your original price) no matter how much technology improves and data consumption increases. What was realistically possible with unlimited data then is different now. And not taking that into account is pie in the sky thinking.

However, there is no excuse for limiting a feature on data plans that are metered. The carrier isn't on the hook for anything because you already purchased a set amount of data at an agreed upon price and even pay more for overages. Their excuse on "unlimited" plans at least make logical sense and its reasonable. The excuse on plans that are limited make no sense at all.

I think we're talking about two different things. I'm not talking about the quantity or speed (throttling of data), I'm talking about the actual usage of the data. There is a big difference between discriminating how data is used and how much data is used. In this case, the uproar is about how the data is used.

 

[JerseyDoug]

I think we're talking about two different things. I'm not talking about the quantity or speed (throttling of data), I'm talking about the actual usage of the data. There is a big difference between discriminating how data is used and how much data is used. In this case, the uproar is about how the data is used.

Absolutely. That is the issue.

 

[JuBe]

First of all, consumers have zero right to tell a company how to use its profits.

Secondly, AT&T has zero obligation to the customer beyond what they already agreed to. In this case, AT&T never agreed to allow unlimited Facetime. As technology changes, so does company policy and the services it offers.

Thirdly, you have TONS more options than the iPhone on ATT and Verizon. Choose a different phone. Choose Sprint, T-Mobile, US Mobile, Virgin Mobile, Cricket. Or another option people tend to forget about, choose to not have a cell phone. Not 15 years ago, most of America and the world operated just fine without them. ATT (or any other carrier for that matter) has no "obligation" to provide that to you.

This is not "high school" economic theory. It's free economic theory. You have to either have gone to college or own a business to understand. Heaven forbid you do both.

No, forgetting how much data is used, AT&T agreed to provide me with data (doesn't matter if it is 200 MB, 5 GB or unlimited) for my own personal use. Telling me how to use that data is a breach of net neutrality.

If we want to include the power utility analogy: the utility companies don't tell me how to use the power I use; if they want to charge me for that power according to peak-usage, they can do that, but AT&T isn't doing that. AT&T is telling me I can use my "electricity" for the washer and dryer, but if I want to use it for the dishwasher, I have to pay extra.

Once again, the clamor is not about the quantity of usage, but the application. There is absolutely no justification for telling me how I use that data.

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JuBe uses Wall of Text on AT&T. . .

It's not very effective.

Hey! "They spewed first!"

 

[samson533]

Economics 101... In the cellular industry, there are barriers to entry, particularly economies of scale. This creates a distortion on prices for cellular services. BTW adam smith, says that when individuals pursue their own self interest, they promote the good of society. But sure you can BOLD all those laissez-faire economic words and hope it sticks. Consumer reaction to a business decision is very much allowed in the interaction between business, government & society.

I don't disagree with a single thing you said. This tread isn't about consumer reaction. It's about consumers attempting to use bureaucratic power to force AT&T to provide a service they don't want to provide (Facetime on unlimited data plans).

 

[Gix1k]

Great...switched to AT&T and now this. Oh well...a iOS 6 jailbreak will be out soon to take care of this.

 

[JuBe]

I don't disagree with a single thing you said. This tread isn't about consumer reaction. It's about consumers attempting to use bureaucratic power to force AT&T to provide a service they don't want to provide (Facetime on unlimited data plans).

They're not blocking FaceTime on just unlimited plans. They're blocking it on all plans that aren't their Mobile Share plan. The thread is about consumers standing up to AT&T in the only real way they can--through their societal representation.

AT&T's inability or unwillingness to provide the quantity of data requested by consumers has no merit or connection with the requested application of consumers. It's not about whining for more or trying to bankrupt AT&T, it's about AT&T overstepping its boundaries, and meddling and interfering with a consumer's right to use something they paid good and well for.

 

[iLeoMarc]

I don't disagree with a single thing you said. This tread isn't about consumer reaction. It's about consumers attempting to use bureaucratic power to force AT&T to provide a service they don't want to provide (Facetime on unlimited data plans).

Well that is a debate between how much influence government should have on society and businesses. My reply was just your quick response to call out people outwardly expressing their dislike of what a business is doing, as whining. In such an industry where the barriers of entry are high, the decision between a few select companies is the lesser of a few evils. While this issue may not cause individuals to leave to another company, due to higher priorities in choosing a service provider, every consumer has a right to complain.

 

[samson533]

They're not blocking FaceTime on just unlimited plans. They're blocking it on all plans that aren't their Mobile Share plan. The thread is about consumers standing up to AT&T in the only real way they can--through their societal representation.

AT&T's inability or unwillingness to provide the quantity of data requested by consumers has no merit or connection with the requested application of consumers. It's not about whining for more or trying to bankrupt AT&T, it's about AT&T overstepping its boundaries, and meddling and interfering with a consumer's right to use something they paid good and well for.

Well, I personally think this is about their unlimited plans. If you are crying about other plans, the mobile share plan is almost always a better value. Unlimited minutes & texts, tethering included and if you have an iPad, you can just share your data pool. My bill dropped $25/mo and I now get a more for my money.

I don't understand what boundary was overstepped. AT&T is willing to offer Facetime on there new plans (which are better then their previous plans) so just switch. The only people that have reason to gripe are those with the unlimited grandfathered plans, which AT&T could just discontinue at anytime for any reason.

 

[Aznluder]

Time to find another provider...

This is just one of many reasons why we should jailbreak our phones. I've been using FaceTime over 3G for years.

 

[samson533]

Well that is a debate between how much influence government should have on society and businesses. My reply was just your quick response to call out people outwardly expressing their dislike of what a business is doing, as whining. In such an industry where the barriers of entry are high, the decision between a few select companies is the lesser of a few evils. While this issue may not cause individuals to leave to another company, due to higher priorities in choosing a service provider, every consumer has a right to complain.

Agreed

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Facetime wasn't allowed before because it wasn't possible with the software installed on the phone, not because AT&T wouldn't allow it. How has AT&T been clear that they would never allow it? I have been an AT&T customer for 5 years and this was never communicated directly to me in any capacity. I stand by my point, consumers should be free to choose how they use their data.

It was announced June 21, 2010, before the iPhone 4 with Facetime was even released. AND it was possible on the iPhone 4, Jobs announced that it was. He also said while showing of the iPhone 4 for the very first time that carriers haven't yet decided to support the feature. AT&T, Verizon and everyone else later said they would not support it over their cellular networks.

 

[JForestZ34]

You are correct. AT&T sells a service. They sell data. AT&T told you before they sold you the data that Facetime would not be allowed. You purchased it by your own free choice under those conditions. Plain and simple.

AT&T has always been very clear Facetime wouldn't be allowed. Where is the ethical dilemma? I think its unethical for consumers who knew that they signed an AT&T contract knowing full well that AT&T wouldn't allow Facetime, then say that AT&T has "ethical obligations" to provide that service.

I think when I signed my contract it doesn't say anything about FaceTime in it. That was 4 years ago and haven't signed one since. So AT&T hasn't explained to me that FaceTime would not be allowed. They are assuming that customers know this.

This of AT&T as a cable company. How are they to tell me I can't watch certain channels Im paying for? AT&T is just greedy pure and simple.

What I find funny is they say it will overload the network but that all goes away once you magically pay the extra money


James

 

[Aznluder]

Facetime wasn't allowed before because it wasn't possible with the software installed on the phone, not because AT&T wouldn't allow it. How has AT&T been clear that they would never allow it? I have been an AT&T customer for 5 years and this was never communicated directly to me in any capacity. I stand by my point, consumers should be free to choose how they use their data.

Software didn't allow it because of the carriers. Why would Apple care if you used FaceTime over cellular? Carriers said no because of the feared stress on their networks.

 

[cmwade77]

I would've thought throttling would've fallen into that boat as well. I guess it doesn't say unlimited speed. Do they throttle the data throughput of voice calls too? Probably needs very little bandwidth for voice calls.

I would agree with you and I hope that they lodge that complaint as well, since this is limiting their data connection and they offer other data services.

 

[samson533]

I think when I signed my contract it doesn't say anything about FaceTime in it. That was 4 years ago and haven't signed one since. So AT&T hasn't explained to me that FaceTime would not be allowed. They are assuming that customers know this.

This of AT&T as a cable company. How are they to tell me I can't watch certain channels Im paying for? AT&T is just greedy pure and simple.

What I find funny is they say it will overload the network but that all goes away once you magically pay the extra money


James

Cable companies change their channel lineup all the time. One day you are getting ESPN2 then the next they moved it up to the next higher up package. Or a new technology comes out like HD, they charge you a $10/mo to get the same channels but in high def.

BOTH Apple (when the iPhone 4 was first announced) and AT&T (2 weeks later) said that Facetime would only be a WiFi form of communicaiton. Four years ago when you signed your contract Facetime didn't exist, market conditions change and so did the plans AT&T offered to cope with that change.

 

[Pilgrim1099]

Well, I personally think this is about their unlimited plans. If you are crying about other plans, the mobile share plan is almost always a better value. Unlimited minutes & texts, tethering included and if you have an iPad, you can just share your data pool. My bill dropped $25/mo and I now get a more for my money.

I don't understand what boundary was overstepped. AT&T is willing to offer Facetime on there new plans (which are better then their previous plans) so just switch. The only people that have reason to gripe are those with the unlimited grandfathered plans, which AT&T could just discontinue at anytime for any reason.

Wrong. The mobile share plan is NOT a better value because it discriminates deaf people who rely on texting and video conferencing. I don't use AT&T but on a different carrier using a FLAT fee per month for unlimited data without voice calls. And no, it's not Verizon. All audio calls are blocked and that policy cannot be lifted. I know because I'm part of that demographic and use this special plan for the hard of hearing and deaf.

I know about it because many deaf people who use AT&T are livid.

The only time I can use FaceTime (or Skype if need be) is via wifi, but that changes tomorrow if 3G works. Wifi does a better job of it, but 3G makes me leery on how it may stream live.

So, in that sense, keep in mind that each phone user has different needs. Deaf people require mobile devices to have texting and video capabilities, especially the latter if they need to sign visually.

Charging deaf people under a voice plan is VERY insulting and degrading. I'm surprised Apple did not get sued for Siri if a deaf person tried to use it unsuccessfully. That would've been a huge class action lawsuit right there.

 

[macrumorschamp]

Ever since the Facetime service was announced AT&T has been very clear that they would not allow its use on their networks. They have never let customers believe otherwise. So all those who think that AT&T owes it to them as part of their data contract are completely clueless as to what AT&T has agreed to. No one from AT&T has ever sold a data plan to someone without it being very clear that Facetime would not be allowed. I'm sure if you look in the MacRumors archives you could find when Apple first announced Facetime and then a story right after it about AT&T not allowing it on there networks.

Therefore everyone who has switched to AT&T, resigned a contract with AT&T, or simply continues their grandfathered unlimited plan since has always known that AT&T won't let them use their data for Facetime. There has not been any deception, no bait and switch, nothing. That's always been their policy.

Now that AT&T is going to allow it on their new plans, people are in an uproar because they want that to be grandfathered in as well. AT&T choose not to and are well within there rights to do so.

I understand people being upset because they have been on the unlimited data gravy train. But AT&T (to my knowledge) hasn't used either deception or coercion to get new clients or to keep there old ones. If they have or do then that's illegal and a lawsuit ensues. But people aren't saying "AT&T tricked me" or "AT&T said . . . then afterword they changed their minds." They are wanting AT&T to add a new service onto existing plans and AT&T doesn't want to..

Wrong. If you look up AT&T's wireless terms and conditions, there never has nor is there now anything about FaceTime. The fact that they didn't want to allow it doesn't change the fact that they might be breaking net neutrality laws by blocking it. Apple was actually asked NOT to enable it over 3G when the feature first came out by AT&T. Now that Apple has many service providers who support their phone, they are enabling it for everyone and AT&T is choosing to block it to specific data plans whereas Verizon and Sprint chose not to (lucky for them because this is going to blow up in AT&T's face). In fact, only references to video messaging (as in mms) are listed in their terms and it says you can use it as long as you have an eligible phone and data plan so FaceTime or video chat are not even listed. I would also mention that people walking into an Apple store or AT&T store are never specifically told they can only use FaceTime over WiFi, but their display models have demos that show it being used. I would say it's a bit misleading as Android phones can do this without being blocked. It's political BS in a way. For all you know, they get tremendous kickbacks from Google to allow it.