Audio Decoding KILLS MacPro (2009) green factor

[VirtualRain]

It's a Presonus Firebox. It's an outboard box that contains A/D converters and sends the digital audio data to the computer via FW. Essentially the same thing that your Maya card does except the Maya has the A/D converters on the card itself.

The only thing I can think of that's really different between them is there may be some extra power running over the FW connection that wouldn't be there with the Maya. I'm using an external power source for the Firebox but it seems at least possible that there's still current running over the FW cable. I really don't know one way or the other though & I'm not sure how that would impact our problem.

When you installed your FW card... did you have to install drivers or does OSX use the default Firewire drivers?

Perhaps it's irrelevant what hardware is used and depends solely on what drivers are used. In other-words, firewire via onboard or via PCIe doesn't matter since they both use the same drivers which hooks into the problem?

 

[smacman]

When you installed your FW card... did you have to install drivers or does OSX use the default Firewire drivers?

Perhaps it's irrelevant what hardware is used and depends solely on what drivers are used.

That is my new theory. I think this is all correctable at the driver level. Too bad Apple thinks it's all within limits.

 

[eyeruh]

I read through the manual for the device. There seems to be some interaction with the audio built into the Mac/PC. For instance, on the first troubleshooting page of the manual the it describes how the Firebox synchronizes digital word frame rates with your Mac; with the blue light indicating the Firebox is sync'd with your Mac. I don't know if the software can interact directly with Core Audio - or perhaps, Core Audio is processed on the built in audio adapter. The true test would be to install a Maya, set the sound preference to the Maya and then plug in the Firebox. I wish we lived next door - I could let you borrow my card to test! I assume your speakers are hooked to the Firebox?

That's an interesting point but I'm not sure if it's a factor here. I went into the Audio Midi setup utility that lets you switch between the FireBox's word clock or the Mac's and it was set to use the FireBox's clock by default. Switching it to the Mac's clock didn't stop the rise in CPU temps.

As for the speakers, I never hooked any up to the FireBox -- or even tried to play audio through it. Simply connecting it via FireWire was enough to reproduce the symptoms.


To answer VirtualRain's question--I used the default Mac OS FireWire drivers. Presonus provides a mixer app and a control panel but no specific drivers.

 

[xparaparafreakx]

No. Plugging it in will have the same affect as playing audio. In other words, until you unplug it, expect a system that is 20% slower, hot, and sucking 50w of extra power..

Sigh. That is great for us DJs that pretty much only use USB audio interfaces.

This is going to be werid but do we have any Protools HD users with TDM cards?

PCIe --> TDM Card --> Interface. I wonder if its the same effect.

 

[eemzah]

Have you guys tried turning off HyperThreading? I tried on my machine at it lowers the temperature a little bit to around 55 deg C (instead of the usual 65 deg C) when I play audio. Just a suggestion.

 

[nanofrog]

Perhaps it's irrelevant what hardware is used and depends solely on what drivers are used. In other-words, firewire via onboard or via PCIe doesn't matter since they both use the same drivers which hooks into the problem?

It's possible, but which one/s?

It could be the card either used the default OS X drivers, or the use of Core Audio once the FW functions had passed the data.

Maybe a test of a FW card with other than an Audio device could help to isolate this (i.e. FW attached HDD to the card to bypass the ICH).

 

[BillB50]

That's an interesting point but I'm not sure if it's a factor here. I went into the Audio Midi setup utility that lets you switch between the FireBox's word clock or the Mac's and it was set to use the FireBox's clock by default. Switching it to the Mac's clock didn't stop the rise in CPU temps.

As for the speakers, I never hooked any up to the FireBox -- or even tried to play audio through it. Simply connecting it via FireWire was enough to reproduce the symptoms.


To answer VirtualRain's question--I used the default Mac OS FireWire drivers. Presonus provides a mixer app and a control panel but no specific drivers.

I believe this device is still interacting with the on-board audio - even without playback. During playback, you are using the on-board audio IF you have speakers hooked up via the on-board port or run phones off of the front jack.

 

[cl-user]

Google wrote a review of hard drive failure issues, from it I gleaned that optimum operational temperature ranged from 30C to 40C.
Using SMCfancontrol I find my HD temperatures dropping to mid 20C range (it is winter, and I am so green here).

Whilst the collective wisdom homes in on (a) drilling through Apple's passive/aggressive deafness, (b) temporary sound card bandages, (c) hacking the MacOS to fix kexts etc. ...
could I add to the todo list: optimizing SMCfancontrol for various configurations.

I'd like disks in the 20-40C range, CPUs below 70C at max. Meanwhile minimizing noise, wear and user attention.

I have 5 settings set in steps of increasing fan speed, and generally use #4:
PCI 800
PS 916
EXHAUST 999
INTAKE 999
BOOSTA 2038
BOOSTB 1707

But I find cranking up BOOSTA with minimum BOOSTB makes no difference to CPU 1/CPU 2 temperatures versus doing it the other way around.
The above is noisy, but does seem to prevent the worst roasting excesses. But this chills the 4 on-board disks too much (IMHO).
Or could the GTX 285 be sucking out too much air from the disk area ...

I find it all too easy to crank up SMCfancontrol when things are getting busy, but tend to forget to adjust when the CPU roasting is passed.

 

[eemzah]

I have a small little problem with smcfancontrol. I can't set my PCI or PS any lower than 2000.

 

[eyeruh]

I believe this device is still interacting with the on-board audio - even without playback. During playback, you are using the on-board audio IF you have speakers hooked up via the on-board port or run phones off of the front jack.

Well, it's possible but I'm not sure if that's true. I tried unplugging my speakers from the on-board audio and then plugged my FireBox in again -- same results as before.

Anyone know of some way to disable the onboard audio entirely? There doesn't seem to be a GUI option aside from deselecting it in the "Sounds" panel. Maybe a command line approach?

 

[PrinceAvalon]

The downside to Apple designs perhaps. I always leaved HT on for video work etc... and due to PC cases having better designs with airflow and cooling I never go above mid 50s even when @ 100% load on all 8 cores....

That sounds strange and abnormal. I have a friend who has a custom built Mac Pro for audio recording and nothing touches it, it's like they excel at that and kill any Windows box he used.

I'm just curious though what Audio Processors does Apple use in the iMac/Mac Pro's or is this some trade secret? I'm curious if what they use; assuming you don't count custom builds just standard level, is it better than the HT Omega card in my Windows box or probably not unless I buy a 100k+ machine designed for studio recording?

 

[Dragonforce]

Good work.. I sure hope it leads to something good.

Perhaps I am getting too cynical, but I fear this is just the beginning of another frustrating chain of communication that involves you explaining the whole situation again to somebody that knows absolutely nothing about software / hardware, then having somebody promise to look into it for you, only to never hear back, or worse yet, find out that it is "within limits"...

I've lost all my faith in Apple..

Here's a quick summary:

Talked to that lady on the phone for about 30 minutes - told me she's the highest level support for Europe. She knew all the details already, so most likely she has read most of the threads I linked in my initial mail and agreed that this issue we're having isn't normal at all. We talked about the workaround with the PCIe sound cards and told me that its kinda embarassing that the users are better at fixing problems than the Apple engineers. Our issue gets forwarded directly to the "Apple Hardware R&D" in the US and I will receive further emails if there's anything new. Also, if >> we << find any new informations regarding this, I should email those to her. I also asked her to observe and forward this thread (to the R&D) because we're making the most progress here.

Well, thats all and forgive my poor English

 

[nanofrog]

Here's a quick summary:

Talked to that lady on the phone for about 30 minutes - told me she's the highest level support for Europe. She knew all the details already, so most likely she has read most of the threads I linked in my initial mail and agreed that this issue we're having isn't normal at all. We talked about the workaround with the PCIe sound cards and told me that its kinda embarassing that the users are better at fixing problems than the Apple engineers. Our issue gets forwarded directly to the "Apple Hardware R&D" in the US and I will receive further emails if there's anything new. Also, if >> we << find any new informations regarding this, I should email those to her. I also asked her to observe and forward this thread (to the R&D) because we're making the most progress here.

Well, thats all and forgive my poor English

Maybe something will come of this.

 

[TennisandMusic]

The downside to Apple designs perhaps. I always leaved HT on for video work etc... and due to PC cases having better designs with airflow and cooling I never go above mid 50s even when @ 100% load on all 8 cores....

That sounds strange and abnormal. I have a friend who has a custom built Mac Pro for audio recording and nothing touches it, it's like they excel at that and kill any Windows box he used.

I'm just curious though what Audio Processors does Apple use in the iMac/Mac Pro's or is this some trade secret? I'm curious if what they use; assuming you don't count custom builds just standard level, is it better than the HT Omega card in my Windows box or probably not unless I buy a 100k+ machine designed for studio recording?

Trade secret audio processors? Custom built Mac Pros that kill any windows box for audio?

Do you know what goes into these machines?

 

[dryjoy]

Maybe something will come of this.

Hey Dragonforce. That's great, let's hope she manages to move this thing forwards. It does sound like you may have managed to break through the fortress, well done.

 

[PrinceAvalon]

Trade secret audio processors? Custom built Mac Pros that kill any windows box for audio?

Do you know what goes into these machines?

Well I know people who have spend pools of money on custom studios using Mac Systems that is far better than the Windows based machines in studios they used? Don't need to be an arse about it or you sound as though you wish to talk down like I know nothing at all.

And if it's common knowledge and not an audio processor they built why not say C-Media 8898-A or something for the audio controller they just say 24 bit audio controller. So I was wondering if Apple made the actual chips themselves for audio processing or what they use? I couldn't seem to find that answer anywhere no matter how I researched.

If you know, the mature thing to do is state, not talk down and assume I know nothing and you know far more than me. That is highly debatable and not the issue here.

 

[dryjoy]

Well I know people who have spend pools of money on custom studios using Mac Systems that is far better than the Windows based machines in studios they used? Don't need to be an arse about it or you sound as though you wish to talk down like I know nothing at all.

And if it's common knowledge and not an audio processor they built why not say C-Media 8898-A or something for the audio controller they just say 24 bit audio controller. So I was wondering if Apple made the actual chips themselves for audio processing or what they use? I couldn't seem to find that answer anywhere no matter how I researched.

If you know, the mature thing to do is state, not talk down and assume I know nothing and you know far more than me. That is highly debatable and not the issue here.

The answer is that whatever the built in audio of the Mac Pro is, is that it is something very standard (Intel maybe?) and nothing too special.
There isn't anything customised per se available from Apple as far as the built in Audio goes, BUT any studio would add some sort of audio interface to their Macs.
If you're thinking of something really expensive and high end, you're probably thinking of Pro Tools TDM (example: http://www.digidesign.com/index.cfm?navid=84&itemid=4888)

 

[PrinceAvalon]

The answer is that whatever the built in audio of the Mac Pro is, is that it is something very standard (Intel maybe?) and nothing too special.
There isn't anything customised per se available from Apple as far as the built in Audio goes, BUT any studio would add some sort of audio interface to their Macs.
If you're thinking of something really expensive and high end, you're probably thinking of Pro Tools TDM (example: http://www.digidesign.com/index.cfm?navid=84&itemid=4888)

Yeah, pretty much. I guess; to save people from making assumptions and seemingly talk down to me, I should have said it clearer, my bad. The whole system isn't Apple designed but when they used interfaces and stuff and used the Mac systems they said it far excelled the Windows ones. Now this can be purely opinionated on their part if they prefer the Mac Systems versus Windows machines but suffice to say they say things were far nice on the Macs. So even if the hardware is similar and you use the same sound recording software, the OS's are different at the core so how it runs in OS X at least to them was nicer and smoother and easier and yielded better results to them per productivity and they liked it so I'd say that made it better too if that was my experience with it.

 

[BillB50]

I think the built in audio is a pretty standard device - Realtec ALC889A if I remember correctly.

 

[eemzah]

I think the built in audio is a pretty standard device - Realtec ALC889A if I remember correctly.

Yes I can confirm that it is ALC889A.

In BootCamp, the default drivers for audio is ACL889A.

 

[dryjoy]

Yeah, pretty much. I guess; to save people from making assumptions and seemingly talk down to me, I should have said it clearer, my bad. The whole system isn't Apple designed but when they used interfaces and stuff and used the Mac systems they said it far excelled the Windows ones. Now this can be purely opinionated on their part if they prefer the Mac Systems versus Windows machines but suffice to say they say things were far nice on the Macs. So even if the hardware is similar and you use the same sound recording software, the OS's are different at the core so how it runs in OS X at least to them was nicer and smoother and easier and yielded better results to them per productivity and they liked it so I'd say that made it better too if that was my experience with it.

I would agree with that. I personally love the way OS X handles audio (current issues excepted). It's integrated right into the heart of the OS. Windows always seemed to require a lot of effort to get pro audio apps working smoothly, although it can be done. I expect Windows 7 has improved things greatly, I mean I use OS X 90% of the time but there are a few Windows only apps that I like to use and I now have 7 on my Mac Pro, and these apps are running great. If they were available in OS X, I would prefer to use them there.
Some people do love Windows for Audio though, I think a stripped down and optimised XP installation can be an awesome Audio platform, but it takes some effort to set it up IMHO. OS X is just ready to go.
Sorry, this has got really off topic, I'll wind it up, don't want to distract any more from the issues.

 

[eyeruh]

Hey guys--I don't want to sound like an arse, but this thread is already 34-pages long. Could we start a new thread for the pc/mac audio debate?
I really want to make sure the valuable info presented here doesn't get obscured any more than it already is.

Thanks!

 

[dryjoy]

You're right, sorry.

 

[eyeruh]

You're right, sorry.

No worries! Trust me, I had to sit on my hands to keep from chiming in myself. I did audio on a PC for many years so I have more than a few things I want to say on the topic.

 

[PrinceAvalon]

No worries! Trust me, I had to sit on my hands to keep from chiming in myself. I did audio on a PC for many years so I have more than a few things I want to say on the topic.

I'd be interested in hearing about these experiences, good or bad.