Ok, I'll start a new thread. We'll see how long we can keep a Mac vs PC audio thread from turning into a flame war.
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Audio Decoding KILLS MacPro (2009) green factor
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Ok, I'll start a new thread. We'll see how long we can keep a Mac vs PC audio thread from turning into a flame war.
Sorry, I was not trying to talk down to you, but I guarantee you there is no "hardware" in a Mac or PC that makes one sound better than the other by default. Not at all...
By the way, some of the most successful producers of the last decade use PC's and not Mac's...you can check out Gearslutz.com for more info...
(I use mac for everything, including audio but I know the Mac certainly has no audio quality advantage)
Here's a quick summary:
Talked to that lady on the phone for about 30 minutes - told me she's the highest level support for Europe. She knew all the details already, so most likely she has read most of the threads I linked in my initial mail and agreed that this issue we're having isn't normal at all. We talked about the workaround with the PCIe sound cards and told me that its kinda embarassing that the users are better at fixing problems than the Apple engineers. Our issue gets forwarded directly to the "Apple Hardware R&D" in the US and I will receive further emails if there's anything new. Also, if >> we << find any new informations regarding this, I should email those to her. I also asked her to observe and forward this thread (to the R&D) because we're making the most progress here.
Well, thats all and forgive my poor English
So disappointing. Encouraging, I suppose, that at least from this remote and circuitous route were hear that Apple are not being 100% and deliberately deaf to the whole issue. As to Apple needing to get information via such a route - madness:
us
this list
Dragonforce
Some anonymous Apple lady
Apple R&D (who seem unable to do anything about the problem).
(I think I have a more direct link to Bin Laden)
Meanwhile news of the Gulftown upgrades generate enthusiasm amongst those who haven't been burned.
Thanks Dragonforce
Speaking from *my* experience - I know most studios use Macs for recording/mixing/editing with Pro Tools systems. Sure they have PCs - but that's what a few producers bring in to work on GigaSampler or other software that does not run on the Mac.
I don't use a Mac for the audio quality - of course not, no difference in hardware like you mentioned. It's because of the reliability factor - we leave our Mac Pros on in the studio 24/7 for months - without a crash (and yes, they're connected to the internet) I'm personally just so used to that environment that nothing would make me want to switch OSes.
A lot of producers also use the Ensoniq ASR-10 (which has been discontinued since the last 10 year) It's just a machine they know 100% - that doesn't mean it's the next best thing. One should use the best of both worlds - I use a pc for a sample library and my macs for more hardcore stuff - if they made software for the mac which could run the samples the way I'm used to, I'd dump my pc on the spot.
Upgrades
SecUpd2010-001Snow
and
MacProEFIUpdate
don't seem to have any effect (on audio/heat/power problem).
ie. still when playing or pausing audio:
- heating up quickly into the 80+C range
- no fan response
- power drain
- performance drain
<http://www.flickr.com/photos/45223615@N05/4289813357/>
SecUpd2010-001Snow
and
MacProEFIUpdate
don't seem to have any effect (on audio/heat/power problem).
ie. still when playing or pausing audio:
- heating up quickly into the 80+C range
- no fan response
- power drain
- performance drain
<http://www.flickr.com/photos/45223615@N05/4289813357/>
No change here either.
And still nothing from my applecare rep.
Dragonforce, what was your email to "sjobs@apple.com" to get a reply?
I've tried some brief messages but maybe a more full email should be put to them...
And still nothing from my applecare rep.
Dragonforce, what was your email to "sjobs@apple.com" to get a reply?
I've tried some brief messages but maybe a more full email should be put to them...
I clearly get this too on an 09 2.9Ghz quad, but it never goes above 50c. Without music or any other audio playing constantly, the temps are around 25 - 30c.
i can confirm this also the same on my machineUpgrades
SecUpd2010-001Snow
and
MacProEFIUpdate
don't seem to have any effect (on audio/heat/power problem).
ie. still when playing or pausing audio:
- heating up quickly into the 80+C range
- no fan response
- power drain
- performance drain
<http://www.flickr.com/photos/45223615@N05/4289813357/>
but my temps only hit 65c ( i guess because im running 2.26 octcore which run cooler anyway)
I wonder if this firmware update will have a tie to 10.6.3 to address the issue. I'm waiting to see what the next developer release brings.
Upgrades
SecUpd2010-001Snow
and
MacProEFIUpdate
don't seem to have any effect (on audio/heat/power problem).
ie. still when playing or pausing audio:
- heating up quickly into the 80+C range
- no fan response
- power drain
- performance drain
<http://www.flickr.com/photos/45223615@N05/4289813357/>
Sorry for jumping in mid-stream, but what exactly is hitting 80C+? Is it your core temp? CPU diode temp? Heatsink temp? It must be your cores because the CPU itself would shut down if the CPU diode got that hot. Your cores can get even hotter and be within tolerance and specifications.
I have seen my diode get into the 80C range. Try a stress test while playing audio..
AZREOSpecialist did you look at the URL?
(I tried to embed the picture, but it seemed to be rejected)
It looks to me as if I got:
Core temps from ~35C to 93C in about 5 minutes.
At the same time CPU A temperature diode 33C to 78C and climbing.
I'm puzzled at the various intuitions about what is normal/in-tolerance.
Can we be specific about exact details.
I look to Intel as the authority for safety bounds (which I understood was in the ~70C range).
So Temperature Monitor shows 3 types of CPU reading:
CPU A Heatsink
CPU-A Temperature Diode
CPU Core 01
I wonder if there are two parallel issues for us. One being temperature extremes (which might shorten CPU life), the other being CPU inefficiencies (which cost electric power and CPU power (and maybe noise)).
Is the thinking that the only the Heatsink matters, and that we should ignore Core temperatures. That Core temperatures up into the 100C range are fine, that Intel's operational guidelines relate only to the external Heatsink temperature?
The feeling when I howl about what seems like pending disaster through CPU roasting, only to be told that everything is within tolerance ... it feel like going to the doctor when pissing blood only to get the brush-off as a hypochondriac, there being real problems around like that young man with an iPod cold.
If I'm being hysterical and paranoid, I wish that Apple would make an announcement. Clarify what is normal. And be specific about exact details.
(I'm touchy on the subject, having be fried expensively by my G5 quad)
If you go back into the thread, there's quite a bit on the temps. The limit is set by Intel's Thermal Profile, which is based on Tcase, not Tcore. Tcase is the temp on the IHS which then makes contact to the cooler via TIM.
There's 2 different profiles. A short and long term. Short, is 67C at 100%, while the short term is higher (83C IIRC), but is only able to be done for so many hours of operation. If it exceeds that, it can cause damage to the interconnects (electromigration).
This information can be found in the datasheets for the Xeon 5500 and 3500 series processors.
Having wasted about 12 hours researching and reading about Intel CPU Thermal Specifications, I came to the following conclusion.
Intel's maximum stated Tcase temperature (66.9C) is impossible to accurately measure on a real life system. It is a value that is only to be used by the system builder / engineer, and roughly equals the temperature immediately above the CPU core where it comes into contact with the CPU heat sink. Since there is no sensor at that specific location, the best we can do is either trust that Apple's cooling system keeps the chip within this specification (I don't), or take matters into our own hands and use a software fan control solution. Given the definition of Tcase, it is a fair assumption that at any given time, Tcase is lower than your reported diode temp, but higher than your reported CPU heat sink temp. Since I have seen my heat sink temp in the high 60s, I am almost certain that these chips are running too hot. The thermally induced kernel panics that I have observed seem to verify this, as an adequately cooled system should never approach Intel Thermal Control Circuit levels.
So with all that said, Apple is simply full of $#% when they say everything is within limits. Even if things were within temperature limits, what are the limits for performance loss? What level of dropped frames when encoding video to a firewire drive are within limits? Apple has really $^% the bed on this issue, and I am seriously starting to consider cutting my losses and obtaining a Windows 7 workstation.
On a side note, were you guys aware that Apple can cancel our Applecare at their discretion? In my most recent conversation with them, after receiving a "within limits" statement for the 5th time, my tone became a little more hostile. When I threatened to go to the media or consider legal action, I was promptly reminded that any action of that sort will result in my Applecare agreement being cancelled immediately, since the entire agreement is ultimately at Apple's discretion.
What a joke of a company Apple is turning into...
Many thanks for clarity Smacman.
However all is still unclear to me.
Monitoring I see terms like CPU A Heatsink, CPU-A Temperature Diode, CPU Core 01.
Intel write about Tcase and Tcore.
I'm unclear how to translate between them.
I've been taking Intel Tcase as CPU temperature diode.
Hence Temperature Monitor CPU temperature diode readings of 78C and climbing are above the safe zone.
<https://forums.macrumors.com/posts/8022325/>
<http://www.flickr.com/photos/45223615@N05/4289813357/>
Is the assumption here that Temperature Monitor CPU Core temperatures are irrelevant?
All in, there's clearly some sort of viscous CPU spiral evoked by this bug, on one side I'm not please to lose power (computing and electricity), but I'm more worried about shortening the life of the machine.
I see no fan speed up, so either have to use SMCfancontrol, or just avoid all audio. Both are awkward.
I've read and re-read this and other threads in an effort to get clarity on a course of action. I take it that Apple are not going to help, that if they decide to come out with a fix they'll do that in their secretive way. So it is "seeing is believing", meanwhile assume nothing.
But in the here and now, can't we come out with simple and clear guidelines. I have in mind something like:
Run Temperature Monitor. Configure to sound alarm when CPU temperature diode exceeds 75C. If so, as a stop-gap, run SMCfancontrol to get that temperature below 70C.
However all is still unclear to me.
Monitoring I see terms like CPU A Heatsink, CPU-A Temperature Diode, CPU Core 01.
Intel write about Tcase and Tcore.
I'm unclear how to translate between them.
I've been taking Intel Tcase as CPU temperature diode.
Hence Temperature Monitor CPU temperature diode readings of 78C and climbing are above the safe zone.
<https://forums.macrumors.com/posts/8022325/>
<http://www.flickr.com/photos/45223615@N05/4289813357/>
Is the assumption here that Temperature Monitor CPU Core temperatures are irrelevant?
All in, there's clearly some sort of viscous CPU spiral evoked by this bug, on one side I'm not please to lose power (computing and electricity), but I'm more worried about shortening the life of the machine.
I see no fan speed up, so either have to use SMCfancontrol, or just avoid all audio. Both are awkward.
I've read and re-read this and other threads in an effort to get clarity on a course of action. I take it that Apple are not going to help, that if they decide to come out with a fix they'll do that in their secretive way. So it is "seeing is believing", meanwhile assume nothing.
But in the here and now, can't we come out with simple and clear guidelines. I have in mind something like:
Run Temperature Monitor. Configure to sound alarm when CPU temperature diode exceeds 75C. If so, as a stop-gap, run SMCfancontrol to get that temperature below 70C.
It sounds like you are in the exact state of mind that I was in a couple of weeks ago.
CPU A Heatsink = Temperature sensor physically attached to your heatsink
CPU A Temperature Diode = Temperature sensor inside your CPU adjacent to all processor cores
CPU Core Temps = Temperature sensor inside your CPU adjacent to individual cores
Tcase = Intel value specifying the temperature between the CPU's IHS and the heat sink. This is the location where the CPU transfers it's heat to the heat sink.
Tcore = Should equate to CPU Core Temp sensor values
As you may have gathered when reading Intel's errata on the W35xx chips, the important specification is the Tcase value. Since we can't exactly measure it, we must approximate it by deducing a value that lies between the CPU A Heat Sink Temp and the CPU A Temperature Diode. For example, if your CPU A heat sink temp is 60C, and your CPU A Temperature Diode is 70C, a fair estimate for Tcase would be 65C. On this logic, anything above about 72C (CPU A Temperature Diode) is exceeding Intel's maximum temp. This can happen by simply listening to an MP3 or transferring a large amount of data to an external Firewire drive.
For this reason, I am considering my maximum safe CPA A Temperature Diode reading to be 70C. I am currently using a version of Fan Control modified by Concorde Rules to ramp up my fans and prevent readings above 70C. CR linked to his modified Fan Control package HERE.
I'm starting to think the better idea is to cut our losses with these flawed machines ASAP. When Apple comes out with a 2010 Mac Pro that doesn't exhibit this behavior, we will have a hard time even giving these machines away. I guess the joke is on us...
smacman and Concorde Rules, you are my uber heros.
I tried Fan Control a while back and couldn't get it to work properly.
Now (despite breaking every rule in my net security book for the first time - which shows how desperate I am), I seem to have got some control back over temperatures. See first stab in
http://www.flickr.com/photos/45223615@N05/4292947200/
Fan Control settings my first rough guess, and I'm chuffed to hear/see the fans actually ramp up under load (for the first time).
I'd like to know what Fan Control settings you guys use (Base Speed, Lower Threshold, Upper ...).
I'm not sure what "cut our losses" could mean. Dump on eBay perhaps ...
My general outlook is to stick with this as is, not hope for a MacOS update that fixes it (as I'm fed up doing that), and look for ways to minimize my vulnerability to Apple from now on.
I'd take a 2010 Mac Pro as a substitute for this buggy system, and think Apple were slow at getting around to it, but had come good in the end. But I expect nothing to happen, and for depreciation to be wilder than Goldmans' bonuses and longevity on a par with my G5 Quad.
Anyway, big thanks to the heros, and I suggest that everyone give Fan Control a try.
Without going through the whole thread, have any of the tech sites posted an article about it?
Have mac rumours no paid any interest as i recall them having one on the 27" imac problem?
Noticed a post here about it, that i hadn't seen before
http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/feedback/2009_mac_pro_cputemps/2009MacPro_cpu_temps.html
Have mac rumours no paid any interest as i recall them having one on the 27" imac problem?
Noticed a post here about it, that i hadn't seen before
http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/feedback/2009_mac_pro_cputemps/2009MacPro_cpu_temps.html
Can't see the 2010 Mac Pro not having this problem... same chipset etc.
As for your screenie, nice to see iStat Menus working nicely. Does it come up with CPU A for you? It comes up with CPU A + CPU B here and I've only got one CPU
Exactly.
The '09 board could be used with a firmware update to include the microcode for the new parts. The chipset and ICH10 will be carried over to the new models, as there's no new parts to take their place. Intel designed them to be used on LGA1366, and will go for a minimum of 2 years.
So the problem WILL carry over to the 2010 models, unless Apple solves the issue prior to their release with an update for OS X SL.