Audio Decoding KILLS MacPro (2009) green factor

[VirtualRain]

See, this is the thing that bugs me most about this whole audio bug. One of the main reasons I agreed to spend the ridiculous amount of money needed to get a MacPro was the hope that it wouldn't take 9 months to get driver fixes because it's all from one vendor. The reality is that (at least in my personal experience) Apple was *every bit* as unresponsive as what you'd encounter in the PC world. So why did I pay a premium for a MP and AppleCare?

FWIW, I've used PC's for professional work for well over a decade and never encountered a driver issue that took this long to fix. Just my own personal experience--ymmv. Don't get me wrong--I *love* my MP but after this experience I really don't know if I'll spend the money on Apple hardware again.

I would suggest your expectations are unreasonable. Here's why...

Mac Pro sales are probably 0.001% (or less) of the sales volume for iPhones. Thus critical mass for an issue takes much longer to achieve. Even the enormous sums of money we paid for these machines does not equip Apple with the resources to pursue every single complaint that is raised. An issue must achieve a certain level of critical mass before it warrants any kind of investment. In our case, this issue really didn't achieve sufficient critical mass until the blogsphere started reporting on it, and literally within a couple of weeks after that we had a fix. You should be very pleased with Apple's performance.

I'm not sure when you felt this issue achieve critical mass and warranted Apple's attention, but it certainly wouldn't have been in Oct. when one or two users first reported it. It actually took over 6 months before anyone noticed it... I got my Mac Pro in April 09 and didn't realize I had the problem until Dec. It wasn't really until Dec. that a critical mass of users on this forum got on-board, and even then (and to this day) there were several users who claim they don't have the issue which doesn't help build momentum. I mean, really, when did you honestly expect them to have issued a fix?

 

[Inconsequential]

What are you guys seeing for Northbridge temps at baseline loads? My 09 MP is at about 50 deg C with intake and exhaust @ about 1000 RPM. Goes up to 56 deg C at 600 RPM.

Maybe we should start a thread for general temp discussions?

41C here at idle atm.

Although Octos have two CPUs vs One which accounts for more heat in the Northbridge.

Also your BOOSTA and BOOSTB fans will be higher due to having smaller heatsinks than us quads.

All is fine

 

[mds]

I would suggest your expectations are unreasonable. Here's why...

Mac Pro sales are probably 0.001% (or less) of the sales volume for iPhones. Thus critical mass for an issue takes much longer to achieve. Even the enormous sums of money we paid for these machines does not equip Apple with the resources to pursue every single complaint that is raised. An issue must achieve a certain level of critical mass before it warrants any kind of investment. In our case, this issue really didn't achieve sufficient critical mass until the blogsphere started reporting on it, and literally within a couple of weeks after that we had a fix. You should be very pleased with Apple's performance.

I'm not sure when you felt this issue achieve critical mass and warranted Apple's attention, but it certainly wouldn't have been in Oct. when one or two users first reported it. It actually took over 6 months before anyone noticed it... I got my Mac Pro in April 09 and didn't realize I had the problem until Dec. It wasn't really until Dec. that a critical mass of users on this forum got on-board, and even then (and to this day) there were several users who claim they don't have the issue which doesn't help build momentum. I mean, really, when did you honestly expect them to have issued a fix?

Justify it all you want, but regardless of how big the Mac Pro is to Apple, bad customer service is bad customer service...

 

[VirtualRain]

Justify it all you want, but regardless of how big the Mac Pro is to Apple, bad customer service is bad customer service...

I just don't understand how you can call this bad customer service. From the time this issue received some momentum to the time a fix was issued was, what? 2 weeks?

EDIT: In contrast, it took Microsoft over a year to issue a fix for a USB driver bug that caused laptop battery drain issues... and how many users do you think that affected? LOL.
http://www.tomsguide.com/us/save-battery-life-with-windows-xp-patch,review-777.html

 

[Max(IT)]

I would suggest your expectations are unreasonable. Here's why...

Mac Pro sales are probably 0.001% (or less) of the sales volume for iPhones. Thus critical mass for an issue takes much longer to achieve. Even the enormous sums of money we paid for these machines does not equip Apple with the resources to pursue every single complaint that is raised. An issue must achieve a certain level of critical mass before it warrants any kind of investment. In our case, this issue really didn't achieve sufficient critical mass until the blogsphere started reporting on it, and literally within a couple of weeks after that we had a fix. You should be very pleased with Apple's performance.

I'm not sure when you felt this issue achieve critical mass and warranted Apple's attention, but it certainly wouldn't have been in Oct. when one or two users first reported it. It actually took over 6 months before anyone noticed it... I got my Mac Pro in April 09 and didn't realize I had the problem until Dec. It wasn't really until Dec. that a critical mass of users on this forum got on-board, and even then (and to this day) there were several users who claim they don't have the issue which doesn't help build momentum. I mean, really, when did you honestly expect them to have issued a fix?

I absolutely agree with you: we realized our MP was bugged in mid December, after reading the thread on this forum. In february we have a fix.
Not so bad in our point of view.

 

[eyeruh]

I'm not sure when you felt this issue achieve critical mass and warranted Apple's attention, but it certainly wouldn't have been in Oct. when one or two users first reported it. It actually took over 6 months before anyone noticed it... I got my Mac Pro in April 09 and didn't realize I had the problem until Dec. It wasn't really until Dec. that a critical mass of users on this forum got on-board, and even then (and to this day) there were several users who claim they don't have the issue which doesn't help build momentum. I mean, really, when did you honestly expect them to have issued a fix?

I would say that our expectations clearly differ--that doesn't mean mine are unreasonable. People have been raising this issue directly with Apple AND on their support boards AND on other forums since September if not before. The fact that Apple appeared to ignore the problem until they get bad press doesn't get them off the hook for the massive disconnect between their engineers and their customer support teams.

As a user buying a product geared towards the professional market, I expect professional level service. Maybe I've been huffing too much nitrous but I certainly expected better service than I'd get from Dell or one of the other top-tier hardware vendors. Instead I've seen repeated denials from Apple & massive stone-walling followed by a fix ONLY AFTER THEY WERE PUBLICLY SHAMED. If you want to spend a premium for this level of service, more power to you---I'm just sayin' I'm gonna think twice before I buy Apple hardware again.

 

[VirtualRain]

I would say that our expectations clearly differ--that doesn't mean mine are unreasonable. People have been raising this issue directly with Apple AND on their support boards AND on other forums since September if not before. The fact that Apple appeared to ignore the problem until they get bad press doesn't get them off the hook for the massive disconnect between their engineers and their customer support teams.

As a user buying a product geared towards the professional market, I expect professional level service. Maybe I've been huffing too much nitrous but I certainly expected better service than I'd get from Dell or one of the other top-tier hardware vendors. Instead I've seen repeated denials from Apple & massive stone-walling followed by a fix ONLY AFTER THEY WERE PUBLICLY SHAMED. If you want to spend a premium for this level of service, more power to you---I'm just sayin' I'm gonna think twice before I buy Apple hardware again.

Fair enough. We can agree to disagree.

Some added perspective... I work for a large industry player myself, and I can tell you that there are always more issues than resources to address them. Just like service in a Hospital emergency room where resources are limited and demands are high, all issues must be appropriate triaged and dealt with in order of severity, priority, and impact. For an issue that affected a very small amount of the customer population in an arguably minor way (especially when there was a fairly easy work-around for most users eg. don't play audio while doing processor intensive tasks), I believe this issue was triaged and dealt with appropriately.

 

[mds]

Fair enough. We can agree to disagree.

Some added perspective... I work for a large industry player myself, and I can tell you that there are always more issues than resources to address them. Just like service in a Hospital emergency room where resources are limited and demands are high, all issues must be appropriate triaged and dealt with in order of severity, priority, and impact. For an issue that affected a very small amount of the customer population in an arguably minor way (especially when there was a fairly easy work-around for most users eg. don't play audio while doing processor intensive tasks), I believe this issue was triaged and dealt with appropriately.

I think your corporate bias colors your view a bit, but what you say is certainly how the world works. My point is just that it is bad customer service, justifiable or not. Mac Pros aren't very important to Apple, so the customer suffers. There is no real alternative (save Hackintosh), so MP users get left out in the cold a bit. They have the resources, but chose not to use them because the money is in iProducts. Sucks, but its true. ;-)

 

[Loopy C]

I can confirm the fix does not work properly on Leopard using manual install - it does not break anything but audio temps are acting as bad as before

I would not get my hopes up for a Leopard update, I have never seen Apple update an old OS if not for Security reasons.

Thanks for reply Cindori. That's a shame...didn't really want to go to SL yet (though I have the SL upgrade disk). Decisions, decisions.

 

[AZREOSpecialist]

I would suggest your expectations are unreasonable. Here's why...

Mac Pro sales are probably 0.001% (or less) of the sales volume for iPhones. Thus critical mass for an issue takes much longer to achieve. Even the enormous sums of money we paid for these machines does not equip Apple with the resources to pursue every single complaint that is raised. An issue must achieve a certain level of critical mass before it warrants any kind of investment. In our case, this issue really didn't achieve sufficient critical mass until the blogsphere started reporting on it, and literally within a couple of weeks after that we had a fix. You should be very pleased with Apple's performance.

I'm not sure when you felt this issue achieve critical mass and warranted Apple's attention, but it certainly wouldn't have been in Oct. when one or two users first reported it. It actually took over 6 months before anyone noticed it... I got my Mac Pro in April 09 and didn't realize I had the problem until Dec. It wasn't really until Dec. that a critical mass of users on this forum got on-board, and even then (and to this day) there were several users who claim they don't have the issue which doesn't help build momentum. I mean, really, when did you honestly expect them to have issued a fix?

+1

 

[AZREOSpecialist]

I think your corporate bias colors your view a bit, but what you say is certainly how the world works. My point is just that it is bad customer service, justifiable or not. Mac Pros aren't very important to Apple, so the customer suffers. There is no real alternative (save Hackintosh), so MP users get left out in the cold a bit. They have the resources, but chose not to use them because the money is in iProducts. Sucks, but its true. ;-)

As Mac Pro customers, I think we have a right to high expectations not only of the hardware and software, but after sale support as well. Apple could definitely stand to improve the way it handles these types of bug reports, and I suspect AppleCare's first response to any complaint defaults to "user error" until proven otherwise.

I thought I read that a fix was in the works at Apple since November, which is before this issue got any media attention. If that's true, then it could just be coincidence.

 

[mds]

As Mac Pro customers, I think we have a right to high expectations not only of the hardware and software, but after sale support as well. Apple could definitely stand to improve the way it handles these types of bug reports, and I suspect AppleCare's first response to any complaint defaults to "user error" until proven otherwise.

I thought I read that a fix was in the works at Apple since November, which is before this issue got any media attention. If that's true, then it could just be coincidence.

I agree...we pay premium prices and should get premium support in addition to premium products. Ever notice the difference in customer car at a BMW or Lexus dealer compared to a Toyota dealer?

 

[VirtualRain]

I agree...we pay premium prices and should get premium support in addition to premium products. Ever notice the difference in customer car at a BMW or Lexus dealer compared to a Toyota dealer?

I still maintain we are getting a premium level of care... people here just seem to take it for granted (most likely), are spoiled (if so from who?), or just have unreasonably high expectations (and you must live life in constant disappointment).

There are numerous examples of issues that high-tech companies have grappled with less effectively than this where the impact was far broader... the Microsoft USB problem I mentioned above, Seagate's 1.5TB firmware problems, Intel's Pentium math bug, are just a few I can think of.

If you are disappointed in this whole affair, I really don't know what more to say, other than I feel sorry for you. I've been around long enough to know that this kind of service to a super-niche product is amazing... so I'm super pleased my Mac Pro is now running perfectly and this issue has had a very positive effect on my view of Apple's commitment to excellence.

 

[Keniff]

And before Mac Audio Update temps were 40C?

TBH, nothing has changed, maybe I've just been lucky with my MP, I'm not sure what all the fuss is about...

 

[mds]

I still maintain we are getting a premium level of care... people here just seem to take it for granted (most likely), are spoiled (if so from who?), or just have unreasonably high expectations (and you must live life in constant disappointment).

There are numerous examples of issues that high-tech companies have grappled with less effectively than this where the impact was far broader... the Microsoft USB problem I mentioned above, Seagate's 1.5TB firmware problems, Intel's Pentium math bug, are just a few I can think of.

If you are disappointed in this whole affair, I really don't know what more to say, other than I feel sorry for you. I've been around long enough to know that this kind of service to a super-niche product is amazing... so I'm super pleased my Mac Pro is now running perfectly and this issue has had a very positive effect on my view of Apple's commitment to excellence.

Not sure what to tell ya. I don't live in constaint disappointment and own many products from companies that I feel offer better support. Some of them even compete with Apple, believe it or not!

 

[BillB50]

Not sure what to tell ya. I don't live in constaint disappointment and own many products from companies that I feel offer better support. Some of them even compete with Apple, believe it or not!

Have to weigh in on your back and forth (which is very civil, I might add. It's a pleasure to observe).

I agree with the fact that there are more issues than resources, BUT, I also consider that Apple posted 3.8BB USD in profit last quarter. That is on par with investment banking. When investment banks need to add to the book of work, but don't want to add to the bottom line, they hire contractors or temporary workers. Maybe it's time Apples business practices change with their net worth. To quote another poster - bad service is bad service. The day will come when the number of customers who turn away reaches critical mass. The IT world is filled with companies that once dominated, but now are only a distant memory or hollow stock certificate...

 

[jbl108]

As a MP owner who was only made aware of the bug through this forum, I, too, share the concerns of others who felt neglected by Apple. I really wonder at what point Apple became aware of this, and at what point they decided to (or were able to) fix it. Maybe they knew in November but couldn't figure it out until now. Maybe they knew before that but this was way too far down the list to worry about until it became a big stink. I understand that it would be uncharacteristic of Apple to let us know they were aware of the problem, but wouldn't that have been the right thing to do?

The problem I have is the lack of acknowledgement from Apple to its faithful customers that this think-different, service-oriented company awash with resources cared about us enough to let us know that it was hearing our complaints and working on it. Very similar to the very poor performance handling AVCHD files that no one at Apple would admit was a problem until it finally (and very quietly) got fixed. I understand why they do it. Denial is always the best policy until you have a solution, apparently. It's just tough to be at the other end of it as a loyal customer. Frankly, honesty with their fanatically loyal customer base (and I have been a Mac guy since 1985), would show so much more respect for us and would be much more consistent with the company they want us to believe they are. Don't get me wrong, I love my computer, and I'm very happy they came up with a fix, but I do have higher expectations of Apple than if it were Dell or Microsoft, and that's why this style of doing things make me feel just a little bit let down.

 

[VirtualRain]

I suppose we've beaten this horse to death. I guess whether you feel Apple's providing great support or not, you can't argue that being part of this community is very rewarding. This community is certainly to thank for this. It's hard to imagine a life without online communities of like-minded people (or at least those that share a common interest). It's hard for me to think back to the pre-internet days and how problems like this were discovered and/or resolved. It really is hard to imagine.

 

[bootstrapjesse]

You gotta be kidding...

Mac Pro sales are probably 0.001% (or less) of the sales volume for iPhones.

That’s no excuse for providing terrible service for their flagship workstation.

You should be very pleased with Apple's performance.

Garbage. Please read all of the forum posts at MR and Apple Support.

For an issue that affected a very small amount of the customer population in an arguably minor way (especially when there was a fairly easy work-around for most users eg. don't play audio while doing processor intensive tasks), I believe this issue was triaged and dealt with appropriately.

Again, please read all the posts in this thread and the one at the Apple Support Forums before minimizing the problem. This is/was a serious and fundamental design flaw that resulted in massive performance degradation and hardware failure in some cases. The “fairly easy work-around” required a binary kernel extension that was compiled from proprietary source code. The design flaw was only addressed immediately after several online media outlets published the story.

I believe this issue was triaged and dealt with appropriately.

A healthcare analogy? I do agree that like most healthcare companies, Apple has become a dysfunctional bureaucracy, and has become incapable of doing sensible business. …For example: Providing customer service and support to owners of their premier products regardless of what the market share for that product may be.

While hospital emergency Departments are busy decreasing wait times for hang nails, coughs/runny noses, and tooth aches; many of them continue to fall short on high acuity case outcomes. What a shame.…And remember, nurses that inappropriately triage acute cases, and contribute to poor outcomes in the Emergency Department are counseled and occasionally terminated.

Bottom line is that the experience was so horrible for many Apple users, that they may never buy another Apple computer. I won’t, and I’ve been an Apple fanatic for a long time.

 

[VirtualRain]

Wow.

Honestly, Adobe's Flash causes me more grief on ALL my macs than this problem caused.

You make it sound like your Mac Pro caught fire and burned your house to the ground.

BTW, triage meetings are a common occurrence in software development. It's not an analogy that I created. It's common practice.

 

[smacman]

So now that this is all behind us, does anyone have any new ideas as to what specifically may have been going on on the hardware level to cause the symptoms? Some good theories were tossed around here over the last few months, and I am just curious if the payload of the patch gave anyone any more hints.

 

[Loopy C]

So now that this is all behind us...

Well only for SL users. As my machine shipped with Leopard and perusing a list of compatibility SL would be a real hassle and leave me out of several apps for now so I sure hope something comes down the line for Leopard, again emphasizing that's what the machine came with along with this bug so it seems proper and reasonable (which I know probable has little bearing lol).

Otherwise I am left with picking between two evils, running my machine extra hot and lowering it's life expectancy? (my Apogee Duet keeps this bug on ALL the time computer is on, not just when audio is playing) OR losing several app's/plug-ins I am presently using on a regular basis.

 

[smacman]

Well only for SL users. As my machine shipped with Leopard and perusing a list of compatibility SL would be a real hassle and leave me out of several apps for now so I sure hope something comes down the line for Leopard, again emphasizing that's what the machine came with along with this bug so it seems proper and reasonable (which I know probable has little bearing lol).

Otherwise I am left with picking between two evils, running my machine extra hot and lowering it's life expectancy? (my Apogee Duet keeps this bug on ALL the time computer is on, not just when audio is playing) OR losing several app's/plug-ins I am presently using on a regular basis.

Agreed.. I sure hope this gets fixed for people like yourself that rely on 10.5.

 

[Dr.Pants]

Agreed.. I sure hope this gets fixed for people like yourself that rely on 10.5.

Ditto. Maybe someday... or Cindori or somebody just as talented (or a group) could come up with the same sort of fix cooked up earlier - disable native speedstep (I thought?)

I suppose we've beaten this horse to death. I guess whether you feel Apple's providing great support or not, you can't argue that being part of this community is very rewarding. This community is certainly to thank for this.

Ditto. We've done our part. Maybe lock the thread, since the topic is (mostly) over with?

 

[Cindori]

my fix that disabled speedstep also works for Leopard