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I still maintain we are getting a premium level of care... [...] this kind of service to a super-niche product is amazing... so I'm super pleased my Mac Pro [...]

VR, you can sound as if you are trying to do the hard sell reality distortion act that Apple stage. That, and mixed with some "no bread, then let the little people eat cake" attitude. Like the earlier audio bug indignant deny-ers, such input can seem the opposite of constructive (for users and Apple).

Apple as a whole is made of many different parts, whose performance varies as far as the customer is concerned. One issue seems to pervade all aspects of the company - selective deafness and extreme secretiveness. Also parts like support vary widely in different regions. My Apple support experiences in NYC have been generally OK. My experience is the UK has sometimes been abysmal. A litany of lies, evasion, incompetence, brush-offs, and plain ignorance with a dose of arrogance. Not all, but an unacceptably large proportion.

Blanket statements that Apple is through and through fabulous seems just shill talk and seems to contribute nothing for users (and may alienate some in a polarizing manner).

It might be constructive if we tried to help Apple see blind spots in their systems and operations where they impact on users. And I'd expect the company to welcome that. Like someone telling me I have egg on my chin.

I see support operations as integral to any product. And for a Mac Pro which is premium priced and so targeted, support operations can be pitiful. The number of people of these forums screaming their exasperation demonstrates a measure of the brand image damage done.

There is extreme contrast between a sexy Apple Store sales experience under the Louvre, versus AppleCare when directed to Mumbai call centers that are staffed by people who are hopelessly out of their depths with issue such as this bug.

To blanket endorse Apple including every corner of incompetence, seems insulting to the users who are nursing bruises, and does nothing to help Apple. The brand is one of the strongest in all history, it doesn't need indulging/babying lest it break. Agreed not to over-react and trash all of Apple, far from it. We wouldn't be here if we weren't at heart addicts of using these systems (if not necessarily brand lovers at the same time).

I advocate breaking comments into various sectors. Support is one part. And aspects of support in different regions vary greatly. To make excuses for Apple having a system as a whole that seems set up to shun user input like this audio bug is pure waste, for Apple and users. At times Apple seems to show it has little sense of what user experience is like, it is entrenched and seems to sell the divine perfection message very hard. Nothing on earth could live up to such gushing standards, and the support operations can be more like hell.

We often heard people saying that (a) there was no bug and (b) that anyway Apple would just swap out any system with a problem. They are not just in fantasy land, but are just being flame bait. Justice would be for such people to go through one of the horror experiences with Apple support. They'll never talk like that again. Failing to distinguish between early sales swap outs or returns, and later support operations is misguided.

I'm not for or against Apple. Though as a developer on Apple since the 80s, recent experiences with their support operations do make me recalibrate my expectations of the company. They may be striding away to new horizons of gadget sales and spectacular profit, but for my customers I've growing concern over supplying systems that are based on Apple. The kits is generally fine, but support can be so bad that it could reflect really badly on my products. In a nutshell, there is effectively no way to get through to the company short of what we just learned - screaming headlines in international media.

It is not about the company listening to what it wants to listen to when it wants to listen. It is about customer needs. And in some areas of communication with the customer, Apple can be disappointing, infuriating, even useless. That's just to target some communications areas, not the whole of Apple or all of its sometimes fabulous products and services.

I have no expectation that Apple has ears for this sentiment. So I'll have to plan my business and personal use of Apple systems accordingly. I'm sure others will as well. To not listen or communicate can be to hold a knife to my throat.

IMO Apple communications and customer care are at times not premium (eg. for more than half a year, all efforts to get through to AppleCare about this bug were needlessly stonewalled and denied).
 
cl-user ... I'm dealing with some manufacturer (Dell, HP, Acer and Asus) on a daily basis, and I can assure you that in my experience Apple, far from being perfect, is by far the best among them.
In this forum I saw a lot of people bashing Apple for many reasons, but I'm still impressed when I heard about iMacs (for example) changed without questioning just for a "noisy hard drive", or a "yellow tinge" that you can barely see (I'm NOT speaking about the REAL yellow tinge that affect some iMacs).
I can assure you that other manufacturers REPAIR (and NOT change) their products ONLY if the hard drive is DEFECTIVE, not simply "noisy" ...
Other manufacturer (Eizo or NEC) don't change their displays with a color gradient because they are "within limits", and I'm speaking of monitors that alone costs twice the price of an iMac !
This is just an example.

I agree with you that in this specific issue Apple was slow in the process of admit that there was a real problem. But IMHO the matter of fact is that now the problem is really fixed, and you can use your MP.

My two cents
 
Note to self - don't respond to flame bait.

You missed the point Max(IT). As pointed out, Apple can be great at swapping out machines at purchase time. But it is very different later in the product life. You can expect a back and forth fight for at least 3 weeks before Apple will consider swapping a duff machine. If you depend upon your machine for work, a month out of action does not feel like great support.



But IMHO the matter of fact is that now the problem is really fixed, and you can use your MP.

Now let me tell you, new boy, you can now go can suck some eggs ...!

Duh - Max(IT), what do you think we are all doing ... using our machines. And mine has much better uses than responding to such annoying comments. Grr.
 
Now let me tell you, new boy, you can now go can suck some eggs ...!

Duh - Max(IT), what do you think we are all doing ... using our machines. And mine has much better uses than responding to such annoying comments. Grr.

when people don't have any argument usually post messages like this ... :rolleyes:

BTW maybe the "new boy", here, it's you ...
 
It is interesting how different our perspectives can be with regard to this issue given that not too long ago we were all united and resolved to find a solution.

In my case, I don't know how to feel about the process we were subjected to while trying to get Apple to wake up and at least acknowledge the issue. On one hand, I agree with VR and MaxIT that at the end of the day, Apple did step up and do the right thing. I can also relate to the fact that other vendors also provide less than optimal after sales support. On the other hand, I can relate to cl-user's perspective, and feel that at minimum, I have learned an important lesson about Apple's new front line support structure. As much as we/I love their products, they may no longer be suitable for people that depend on them for serious work. cl relies on his machine for his work, and was without a system for nearly a month as a result of this fiasco.

What I am deeply concerned about however, is the quality of the product that Apple is delivering. Apple has always marketed it's products as a cut above the rest, and for a long time they delivered in this regard. As Apple has grown however, they are increasingly failing to deliver. iMacs with recurring logic board failures, Macbook Pros with higher than normal failure rates due to heat, iPhones with yellowish screens, software with blatant bugs and deficiencies, Mac Pros with weak bluetooth, Mac Pros which consume too much power when audio or FW is used, iMacs with cracked LCD displays, iMacs with flickering screens, MDP - Dual Link adapters that cause flickering, Mice that fail to scroll due to poor design, RAID cards that cause sleep problems, are just a few issues that come to mind over the last few years.

It's not that I think Apple is the only one with manufacturing / quality issues. It's the fact that Apple wants the customer to perceive their products in a way that they can no longer reliably deliver. As a result of Apple's new mission to increase sales at all costs, the real quality of the product has markedly slipped. In some cases, the state of the product shipped to customers is blatantly unacceptable. Even a company selling products on the lower end of the quality spectrum has an obligation to do adequate testing and quality control while providing the customer with a consistent experience. Apple is now producing products of average quality (at best), and using it's reality distortion field to convince customers otherwise. I respect that some will disagree with that statement, but that is my honest feeling given my experiences since the Intel transition.

With respect to the Mac Pro, for me the purchase was somewhat unnecessary. The majority of the work I do could be done on lesser machines. It was my perception that the Mac Pro was a highly engineered machine of precision and quality, that attracted me. Even though I had a bitter taste in my mouth from certain previous experiences, I falsely assumed that it would be different when I stepped up to a true professional workstation class machine like a Mac Pro. Surely this was the pride of Apple, and the machine would be a no-nonsense workhorse. Wrong! Yet another lesson learned. Even though this is fixed, somehow the whole experience has soured the milk.

So to sum it all up, I see where people are coming from when they say that THIS problem is behind us (unless you use 10.5), and Apple ultimately delivered. It's just the fact that in the process of getting here, I have learned yet another lesson about Apple's undistorted reality. I'm not sure how many more lessons I can learn before I try my luck elsewhere.
 
Smacman, Apple didn't change in the time. They had issues in the past (well before Intel switch), they have issues in the present and they surely will have issues in the future. Because they simply are a manufacturer, with a good marketing and good ideas as well.
Nevertheless they are, IN MY OPINION, a step above other manufacturers in many ways, first of all the customer care.
And, as I said before, I have a lot of experience in this field, as an IT manager in my company, dealing with most of them.

Apple screws up , sometimes ....
 
Blanket statements that Apple is through and through fabulous seems just shill talk and seems to contribute nothing for users (and may alienate some in a polarizing manner).

I see support operations as integral to any product. And for a Mac Pro which is premium priced and so targeted, support operations can be pitiful. The number of people of these forums screaming their exasperation demonstrates a measure of the brand image damage done.

I'm not making blanket statements. I'm super happy they fixed the problem because I didn't expect them to because as you say, their support operations can be pitiful. The fact that they DID fix this problem makes me supper happy and renews my faith in their support. They exceeded my expectations on this, and the way most people are positioning their support reputation, they must have exceeded many people's expectations just the same.
 
^Cool. Sorry I missed that. :eek:





Thanks for chiming in. I'm not the best user around, but I also don't think we need 40+ pages after the fact. Please lock, mods.

I don't see the harm in having a post-mortem on how the situation was handled and whether people are pleased with the process or not. If you're done with the issue, you can stop reading the thread. No?
 
Hows my fan control software working for everyone?

Any bugs/mods needed?

V0.7 is the latest, if anyone is interested.

Superbly.
Installed perfectly/effortlessly this time.
Quieter, no beats (I assume mostly GTX285 noise is left now).
Temps under extreme load well curbed.
Idle fans seem to drop back nicely.
Would be nice to have a fix for System Prefs dialog needing restart each time. Perhaps a more distinctive name.
The only thing to top this is for FC (and fan & temp monitors) to be integral to the MacOS itself.
Makes the cat purrs as she should.

And many thanks CR, neat hack.
 
Hows my fan control software working for everyone?

Any bugs/mods needed?

V0.7 is the latest, if anyone is interested.

Maybe post a new thread with it? This is something that will far outlive this old problem.

BTW, where can I find it? (shamelessly admitting I don't want to troll back through this thread :p)
 
I'm not making blanket statements. I'm super happy they fixed the problem because I didn't expect them to because as you say, their support operations can be pitiful. The fact that they DID fix this problem makes me supper happy and renews my faith in their support. They exceeded my expectations on this, and the way most people are positioning their support reputation, they must have exceeded many people's expectations just the same.

Points taken.
IMO issues overlap. Good that Apple made the fix. I appreciate that. Not so good that there seems no mechanism for users to get through to Apple (beyond trying to get sensational mass media coverage).
Although we already know that Apple just will not do communication in some areas that can be really important to users, that strategy can be frustrating in the extreme.
This bug was flat out shunned by support operations (at considerable waste of time and money to customers and Apple) ... and for more than half a year. This cultural issue in Apple presumably persists, and in that alone I think Apple is seriously flawed. As things stand, that deficiency has to be taken as an integral part of the package.
I see the bug, the Apple rejection of bug the reports, and the fix as one whole. As such, it has improved markedly (the bug fix), but overall things may not be so good. This communication problem seems so needless, wasteful and incomprehensible. And in a passive/aggressive manner seems radically at odds with the general Mac Pro offering.
I'd go further and divide the issue as a whole into different departments of Apple people, the tech guys who fixed the bug seem to have been capable, and if they only heard of the problem after the ars technica article, then seemingly really motivated and with-it. But aspects of the support operations can be dreadful. I was trying hard to get through to Apple in the Fall, giving detailed information, having the machine tested. This input was blocked out, and in exasperating ways.

A great system, slick marketing and cosmetics, good performance, but the day it breaks down the ugly underside of the package as a whole can bite the customer. It's as if Apple have some hangup about admitting something's not perfect - but we don't care about that, we need efficient communications and timely bug fixes. A couple of weeks to fix a bug versus a year of frustration with support people - give me bugs that get fixed anytime.

I too applaud the bug fix, but also was forced to realize through it just how dysfunctional related aspects of Apple are.

Apple as a whole seem incapable of doing some joined up thinking in this area (support/communication).
 
agreed.

and since there's at least one poster saying it's not fixed for him, as he cant yet move to SL for app reasons, then theres merit in both post-mortem and 10.5 fix likelihood discussion.

Yeah, pretty much my situation here. Reluctantly I was going to upgrade for this, I cleaned everything up to prepare for a SL install on my 10.5.8 system but quickly found several app's that I would have to do paid updates (several hundreds of dollars even already owning a SL update disc) so still hold out hope (and follow this thread) that the system that shipped with my computer that has this problem will get a patch ;)
 
Concorde Fan Control App

Hows my fan control software working for everyone?

Any bugs/mods needed?

V0.7 is the latest, if anyone is interested.

Excellent. I like it much better than SMCFanControl. I have a few technical questions though. I posted for you in "Fan Control for Mac Pro ( NOT MBP )" and havent heard back yet.

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/253965/

Thanks again,

Jesse :)
 
Bit in Mac World. Are you serious?

Have any of you seen the latest bit in Mac World about this?

http://www.macworld.com/article/146532/2010/02/macpro_audioupdate_benchmarks.html

They repeatedly refer to the fix as a "firmware update" which it certainly was not. I'm surprised that they got that wrong, especially since this is the first article they have done about the problem (as far as I know).

Note the "before and after" test results. Is it possible that Mac World did not include core audio utilization as part of the before and after benchmarking? Am I missing something? These tests really minimize the size and scope of the problem as presented in the article, part of which is the fact that utilizing core audio or using the FW bus caused a 40W minimum excess CPU power burden.
 
Have any of you seen the latest bit in Mac World about this?

http://www.macworld.com/article/146532/2010/02/macpro_audioupdate_benchmarks.html

They repeatedly refer to the fix as a "firmware update" which it certainly was not. I'm surprised that they got that wrong, especially since this is the first article they have done about the problem (as far as I know).

Note the "before and after" test results. Is it possible that Mac World did not include core audio utilization as part of the before and after benchmarking? Am I missing something? These tests really minimize the size and scope of the problem as presented in the article, part of which is the fact that utilizing core audio or using the FW bus caused a 40W minimum excess CPU power burden.

These guys (Macworld) have lost any respect I had for them as a result of their handling of this issue. Over the course of the last few months several of us submitted our story to them in the hopes that they would either investigate or publish a story. Instead of acting on the info, they either ignored it, or in some cases responded with nonsensical theories that defended Apple and diminished the issue entirely. In one case, the senior editor (Jason Snell) responded personally to a query as to why they were not acting on the information. He stated in a childish rant that he decides what gets published, and that he had no interest whatsoever in writing about such a trivial issue.

Only after every other reputable Apple journalist covered the story did they even acknowledge it, and they still don't have their facts straight. Macworld's handling of this issue was almost worse than Apple's own response.
 
Wow

These guys (Macworld) have lost any respect I had for them as a result of their handling of this issue. Over the course of the last few months several of us submitted our story to them in the hopes that they would either investigate or publish a story. Instead of acting on the info, they either ignored it, or in some cases responded with nonsensical theories that defended Apple and diminished the issue entirely. In one case, the senior editor (Jason Snell) responded personally to a query as to why they were not acting on the information. He stated in a childish rant that he decides what gets published, and that he had no interest whatsoever in writing about such a trivial issue.

Only after every other reputable Apple journalist covered the story did they even acknowledge it, and they still don't have their facts straight. Macworld's handling of this issue was almost worse than Apple's own response.

Man, that is unreal! Apparently they are trying to white-wash the issue.

and... I just cant believe that the Mac World Lab Director thinks that the solution to this issue was a firmware update (Yeah. A FW update that somehow applies kernel extensions and only works on a computer with a version specific OS...) LOL

Off-topic: I think that the discussion continues to be relevant.
 
Excellent. I like it much better than SMCFanControl. I have a few technical questions though. I posted for you in "Fan Control for Mac Pro ( NOT MBP )" and havent heard back yet.

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/253965/

Thanks again,

Jesse :)

Replied! :)

As for PCI-E and PSU fans, im currently deep in work for my 2nd Year Aerospace Engineering degree, during the summer when I have some spare time i'll look into improving the app (if someone else hasn't taken over by then!)
 
Sorry

In response to one of my posts you said "... But really, we could have gotten along without either of you." I was just wondering what I did to you?
Nothing, forget it. I only recently began to put the issue away as something I got just a wee bit too involved in. I still can't get over what happened. I still can't get over that it was Apple's own customers who got Apple to take action. To see what to me was a nightmare issue, to awake one day and see the news of a fix...
I thought we could finally stop and look around and see each other as friends, even if we still have some disagreements. I thought we'd see the bigger picture. All of us, naysayers and yea-sayers, and all spectrums in between and upside down... All of us have won. :)
 
So, none of this was ever resolved concerning the new problem the SL-only audio update seems to have created? I am still on Leopard with my Apogee unplugged (because there was never any resolution for original CPU overdrive/audio problem :().

Kinda damned if I do (update to SL and get a whining noise) or damned if I don't (running machine 20~40 degrees hotter all the time interface is plugged in).

I am curious that the whole subject (three threads) all went 'dead' without ever following up on the last info to have come of the update?
 
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