Australian Banks Challenge Apple Over Mobile Payment App Restrictions

[musukosan]

They want to put their own wallet app on the iPhone and avoid paying Apple their "cut" of the transaction. They already pay Visa or MasterCard for the priviledge of processing the transaction and don't want to pay Apple as well. They're banks, they want to maximize their profits!

Of course, there is nothing stopping you from buying an Android phone and using their app there (if it still exists), so presumably there is already competition in this sector!

Ah, so they mean "access the NFC-hardware" within the phone itself.

 

[theotherphil]

Made some large purchases a couple of day ago at Bunnings - over $500 each. I paid with Apple Pay, no pin needed...just a swipe against the terminal. Even the lady behind the counter was impressed...she thought I'd have to enter a pin.

 

[Waughy]

I'm personally about to shut down all of my NAB accounts (inc mortgage) and transfer to ANZ

I did this a few months ago with my pay account and haven't looked back. Apple pay is great and I've had no issues so far. My wife bought we an Apple Watch for my 40th last month and I've been using it ever since for payments. It works great too, and is extremely convenient.

 

[MightyAtomic]

I've been using CBA's (Commonwealth Bank) NFC tap&pay which is linked to my CBA credit card for over a year now. (on my android phone) it was available even before apple pay was announced. Never had any issues.
I found it much easier than going thru another payment provider such as paypal/andriod pay/apple pay, as everything shows in my monthly bank statements as it is.
Also having the option to show the amount remaining in the account at the time of payment is also very handy.
So yes, I agree that apple should open up NFC hardware for banks.

 

[Johnwatso]

Why Westpac? I don't trust their implementation of NFC payment. I'm all for opening it up, but to be fair my experience with westpac apps have been far from perfect as far as features go. I think I will just have to switch to ANZ.

 

[Loonygoose]

All my accounts with NAB are in the process of transferring across to ANZ (Mortgage, Credit Cards, the lot). Admittedly they did tell me to go to another ban when I asked for a better rate last year. Their retention team were shocked to hear that, but my friend got the same response last year as well.

Been using Apple Pay on the Amex since it was introduced (on both watch and phone) and it's been super convenient with the bonus peace of mind of knowing that a breach in the Merchant's systems does not mean a breach with my CC number, like IGA had a few years ago:
https://www.bankingday.com/nl06_news_selected.php?selkey=14132

Yeh, I know that Banks are responsible etc, but it's one less hassle to deal with in a time when there are plenty of things that needs attention. One less thing to deal with in your day to day life is one less thing as it all adds up.

Mates that I have set Apple Pay up for love it and haven't looked back.

 

[wikiverse]

If the idiots at NAB, Westpac et al bothered to look at how tremendously ***** their banking apps are they'd realise that even if customers did have access to them they'd prefer to use apple pay anyway.

The commbank app is the best in the world and far exceeds anything that Apple Pay offers. Cardless Cash at ATMs, using it for store loyalty cards, send money to someone using only a mobile phone number, Simple Balance, and even Tap&Pay using their stick-on tag.

NAB and Westpac have awful technology, but I use a few international banks and Commbank has the best technology of any Bank I've seen.
[doublepost=1469685769][/doublepost]

All my accounts with NAB are in the process of transferring across to ANZ (Mortgage, Credit Cards, the lot). Admittedly they did tell me to go to another ban when I asked for a better rate last year. Their retention team were shocked to hear that, but my friend got the same response last year as well.

I moved all my banking (including business banking) Commbank because NAB's retention team told me to take my business elsewhere if I didn't like their service. So I did.

NAB has an extremely toxic customer service culture. Their version of 'gold standard' or '5 star' service is to only provide the bare minimum that they are legally obligated to. So their best and brightest staff are basically functionally retarded. Regular staff (even bank managers) do not have decision making authority and are treated like retarded children whose parents keep them on a leash.

Their management team are absolute sharks and would chew off their own daughter's clitoris if they thought there was a dollar in it for them.

The whole bank is incapable of providing service or advice that is in the best interests of their customers. They deserve to lose customers. Unfortunately for most customers, they don't realise how bad NAB is until it's they're being thoroughly F'd in the A.

 

[American Hero]

NAB has an extremely toxic customer service culture. Their version of 'gold standard' or '5 star' service is to only provide the bare minimum that they are legally obligated to. So their best and brightest staff are basically functionally retarded. Regular staff (even bank managers) do not have decision making authority and are treated like retarded children whose parents keep them on a leash.

Their management team are absolute sharks and would chew off their own daughter's clitoris if they thought there was a dollar in it for them.

Seriously?

 

[brutus007]

The problem is Australia are way too ahead with payment technology. We don't allow signature anymore its all PIN. MasterCard and Visa Paypass is just about everywhere and most people actually use it, and all the major banks have their own mobile payment that allows Android phones NFC to pay. Apple Pay can be considered late to the game. And as all this technology exists and Banks have invested heavily in them, they don't want to give apple any fees and will rather force their customers to use their own solutions. What banks don't understand is Apple Pay is way more secure and convenient to the user

I am not at all sure why Australia which has one of the safest banking systems in the world would want to let a player from one of the unsafest.

 

[ConnYoungy]

I've yet to meet a single person that would rather use their banks payment system instead of Apple Pay

 

[cbreak]

There are certainly legitimate arguments for Apple opening up NFC access to developers. Things like mobile boarding passes and train ticketing come to mind, where the existing barcode-based solutions can be awkward and insecure.

I'm not sure how letting banks do NFC from their own apps, bypassing Apple Pay, would benefit consumers however. Are Apple's fees for Apple Pay excessive?

It'd mean iPhone users could finally use their phones for payment instead of fruitlessly waiting for apple to get off their lazy ass and release apple pay in ${Country}.

 

[fischersd]

Something to keep in mind (everyone voting for diversity in their payment apps).

Anyone have more than one credit card?

Sooo....which wallet are you going to use?

Amex? MC? Visa? Diners? Discovery? Pick ONE.

Having all of your payment options integrated in Apple's wallet makes a seamless experience.

Digging for specific banking wallet apps would be a royal pain in the A$$.

 

[MillieWales]

TOTALLY irrelevant with contactless pay credit and debit cards.

So you never have to enter the PIN? You will find you are randomly told to do so actually, and if / when a terminal doesn't capture the card contactlessly (card or terminal fault, it happens, google it) or you come across a retailer who doesn't offer contactless, or you know, have to use an ATM as these are not yet contactless, you will find you have to enter your card into a machine and enter your PIN. So it is only as irrelevant as your strange belief that owning a contactless card means you are totall safe every single time you use it.
[doublepost=1469716772][/doublepost]

Why do I want to whip out my phone...chip and pin. All my cards have the chip now.

Yeah, because it's less secure to enter a card into a machine and type in a PIN, you are giving the retailer lots of information, and it's less convenient to get out wallet, open wallet, search through cards, find card you want and insert into machine, wait, enter PIN, wait, remove card, put into wallet, close wallet, out wallet in pocket. With an iPhone you can take it from pocket, hold finger on button and hold near machine, wait, then put phone back in pocket, or take it out, double press home button, swipe to card you want to use, hold finger in button as you hold it near terminal, wait, and your done.
[doublepost=1469717020][/doublepost]

No sir, one phone call. It's happened before. Credit card companies are great at suspicious activity. If my cc vendor detects suspicious activity, even a 99 cent iTunes purchase, I get a notification.

If I forget my phone like I did the other day and I went into the city I'm screwed.

You would go out without your phone but remember your wallet? You are unusual, for most people their phone is so much more than just a phone and is always with them.

You do realise you can still use your cards thou right? Once you put them on your iPhone they don't stop working, you can use either. If you have your wallet and no phone use the card, if you have phone and no wallet use your phone. Not sure why it's a big issue, but hey stay in the last century by all means

 

[Henry 3 Dogg]

Three of Australia's biggest banks have lodged a joint application with anti-trust regulators to negotiate with Apple over gaining access to the NFC-based mobile payment hardware in its smartphones ..... none of the banks want to be accused of violating anti-competition law by negotiating deals, which is where the application comes in.

Apple currently only allows its own mobile payment system to access the NFC-hardware in its iPhone devices, which banks argue is an anti-competitive restriction that hampers consumer choice

So they want to permission to ignore anti competition law and form a cartel to gain leverage over the foreigner.

The banks don't allow anyone else access to their own NFC hardware. It's a perfectly normal security practice, but they want one rule for them, and a different rule for Apple, and they want permission to violate anti competition law in order to secure this.

 

[I7guy]

So you never have to enter the PIN? You will find you are randomly told to do so actually, and if / when a terminal doesn't capture the card contactlessly (card or terminal fault, it happens, google it) or you come across a retailer who doesn't offer contactless, or you know, have to use an ATM as these are not yet contactless, you will find you have to enter your card into a machine and enter your PIN. So it is only as irrelevant as your strange belief that owning a contactless card means you are totall safe every single time you use it.
[doublepost=1469716772][/doublepost]

Yeah, because it's less secure to enter a card into a machine and type in a PIN, you are giving the retailer lots of information, and it's less convenient to get out wallet, open wallet, search through cards, find card you want and insert into machine, wait, enter PIN, wait, remove card, put into wallet, close wallet, out wallet in pocket. With an iPhone you can take it from pocket, hold finger on button and hold near machine, wait, then put phone back in pocket, or take it out, double press home button, swipe to card you want to use, hold finger in button as you hold it near terminal, wait, and your done.
[doublepost=1469717020][/doublepost]


You would go out without your phone but remember your wallet? You are unusual, for most people their phone is so much more than just a phone and is always with them.

You do realise you can still use your cards thou right? Once you put them on your iPhone they don't stop working, you can use either. If you have your wallet and no phone use the card, if you have phone and no wallet use your phone. Not sure why it's a big issue, but hey stay in the last century by all means

Using my credit card works better than Apple Pay for me. The places YOU should be worried is when you pay in a restaurant and the card is out of site.

I really don't care what the retailer collects, nature of the beast and all.

Your last line makes it seem you are a technology snob.

 

[AbSoluTc]

Love Apple Pay and use it daily. My only problem is I have hit the limit on the number of cards I can have enrolled.

 

[kdarling]

It's not anti competitive for Apple to not allow a company in their App Store using Apple technology.

Not sure what you mean by "Apple technology".

Apple buys NFC radios/secure elements like everyone else. The payment applets in the iPhone secure element are written and maintained by the credit card networks, same as with every other device.

The only difference is that Apple doesn't want to let anyone else have access to NFC.

The banks don't allow anyone else access to their own NFC hardware. It's a perfectly normal security practice, but they want one rule for them, and a different rule for Apple, and they want permission to violate anti competition law in order to secure this.

Banks don't sell NFC equipped phones. NFC is meant to be open and used by apps.

What Apple is doing is the equivalent of putting in a Bluetooth chip and then restricting access to themselves only so they can be the only ones to make money from Bluetooth apps / beacon advertising. Or locking down the camera or WiFi.

Sooo....which wallet are you going to use?
Amex? MC? Visa? Diners? Discovery? Pick ONE.
Having all of your payment options integrated in Apple's wallet makes a seamless experience.
Digging for specific banking wallet apps would be a royal pain in the A$$.

The way other phones implement this is to let you pick which wallet app (and which card within that wallet) is your default.

 

[fischersd]

The way other phones implement this is to let you pick which wallet app (and which card within that wallet) is your default.

Yep, but here we see the banks saying "You're going to use MY wallet!" Most people I know have different cards from different providers. On Android you have the Google and Samsung wallets (presumably the banks allow you to use these) - the delta being that the NFC access is open on Android, which Apple clutches it tight (and commands revenue share for their shared wallet).

 

[kdarling]

Yep, but here we see the banks saying "You're going to use MY wallet!"

You're right; some of them could refuse to give into Apple's demand for fees, in return for letting their customers get access to NFC. That part of their motive seems quite understandable.

Many Apple fans think it's okay no matter what Apple does to make more money; yet don't like it when other companies also want to maximize profits.

At least the banks are asking for NFC access to all. That would mean wallet competition, along with cool apps not just for purchasing, but also for things like ticketing, automatic WiFi joining by a tap, NFC tags, info transfers, etc.

 

[AdonisSMU]

Not sure what you mean by "Apple technology".

Apple buys NFC radios/secure elements like everyone else. The payment applets in the iPhone secure element are written and maintained by the credit card networks, same as with every other device.

The only difference is that Apple doesn't want to let anyone else have access to NFC.



Banks don't sell NFC equipped phones. NFC is meant to be open and used by apps.

What Apple is doing is the equivalent of putting in a Bluetooth chip and then restricting access to themselves only so they can be the only ones to make money from Bluetooth apps / beacon advertising. Or locking down the camera or WiFi.



The way other phones implement this is to let you pick which wallet app (and which card within that wallet) is your default.

You play in Apples Store. You play by their rules. If you don't like it you build your own platform and compete and maintain it. Someone else doesn't have a right to use or force Apple to support NFC for apps before they are ready to. For all we know NFC security isn't ready for the apps yet. It's dumb to sue when Apple has already said on more than one occasion they are preparing to open up NFC to app developers.

 

[wikiverse]

Seriously?

They are literally the worst company I have ever had to deal with, ever. No exceptions. They accept no responsibility when something goes wrong - even when they admit fault.

I've never experienced anything like it. Even bank managers do not have the power to reduce or waive fees, to offer deals or incentives to customers, or to fix problems when they go wrong. Problems must be escalated through the central 'customer retention' department - where customers are routinely told "take your business elsewhere", and "if you don't like it, use a different bank'.

They know that people with 4+ products (savings, credit card, home loan, travel card), or customers that use business banking will have an extremely difficult time leaving. NAB also encourages people to engage in direct debit with people - not because it is more profitable for them, but it makes it extremely time consuming to switch to another bank when you have to call dozens of companies during business hours to update details.

They also bundle their products together (credit cards with home loans) so you can't just shift one or two products to another bank without being financially penalized.

When anything goes wrong, they will always blame the customer and tell them to leave. They are genuinely the worst bank in Australia - probably the world, and I would argue that they have the worst customer service of any major corporation anywhere.

 

[s1m]

Now, I want iPhone to do Opal Card here.

There was an article recently stating that Opal will be semi superseded by allowing any bank payment card to be used - so no specific opal card required.

 

[kdarling]

You play in Apples Store. You play by their rules. If you don't like it you build your own platform and compete and maintain it. Someone else doesn't have a right to use or force Apple to support NFC for apps before they are ready to.

How interesting.

Using the same thought process, if Apple doesn't want to play by bank rules, then Apple should have to build its own worldwide banking network platform.

After all, the banks are the ones who have spent decades and billions creating the entire electronic technology infrastructure in use by payment apps today... including latecomer Apple Pay.

Hmm. Maybe you're right. Because the banks have now realized that Apple needs them more than they need Apple. The relatively small amount of extra purchases doesn't seem to justify what Apple demands in payment.

For all we know NFC security isn't ready for the apps yet. It's dumb to sue when Apple has already said on more than one occasion they are preparing to open up NFC to app developers.

Got a link? AFAIK, Apple itself has never said anything about opening up NFC. Lots of rumors from others, but nothing official. Thanks!

 

[fischersd]

For all we know NFC security isn't ready for the apps yet. It's dumb to sue when Apple has already said on more than one occasion they are preparing to open up NFC to app developers.

NFC security isn't ready yet?! Huh? It's evolved considerably over the years. What Apple and other mobile devices are doing is considerably more secure due to the tokenization that they're doing (as opposed to the tap feature on your credit cards).

Apple will eventually open up NFC on the iPhones/iPads to developers (for home automation, keyless access, etc), but I don't seem them ever (barring a court order via the FTC) allowing anyone else access to NFC on their devices for competing payment systems.

 

[appledefenceforce]

Who the hell hands over their card anymore and your pin isn't on the card NOR printed out nor captured by the terminal.

Clearly lacking in real life experience. There are A LOT of places such as bars or restaurants that place their cash registers or EFPOS machines behind the counter so they want to get the card. Also to answer your question about what the percentage of fraud from contactless payments, I don't have that information but there're proven cases of people picking up dropped cards and making purchases under the contactless payment limit.

But hey I'm sure having a biometric security measure that's a step up from contactless payment is such an inconvenience for you. You can keep the old version while we use the new one.
[doublepost=1469840081][/doublepost]

The Cult of Apple stamping their feet.

Are you here to discuss the news in the article or trolling? Also, this is an Apple-dedicted forum. If seeing "the cult of Apple" annoys you that much then perhaps get a new hobby.