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Hey genius, I already stated previously that the time saving between using your phone and card is minimal. Security is the reason I use Apple Pay, not because it's 2 seconds faster. I was responding to i7guy regarding chip/PIN, which is much slower.
Define much slower. 1.5 seconds vs 1.6. For the added benefit of not worrying about your phone?
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One second later? Must be nice. Whenever I have to use a chip card, it's a good fifteen seconds before the machine says I'm able to take my card out.
15 seconds is a long time. I think it depends is the answer.
 
Man this thread's turned into a trainwreck.

Anyway, can someone explain what "boon" is? (Denmark specific? payment system mentioned near the beginning of the thread.)
 
Who the hell hands over their card anymore and your pin isn't on the card NOR printed out nor captured by the terminal.

The stupid American culture that doesn't understand the meaning of progress. Americans will whine and cry until they don't have to make progress with anything, until whatever is attempting to lead the progress gives up and we go back to 1970.
 
I see a few people on here saying there is no major advantage to ApplePay over having a physical card when at the checkout. And I have to say that ApplePay has a few missing features when compared to a physical credit or debit card.

My iPhone doesn't have a magstripe that:
-is in no way encrypted.
-can be easily skimmed at an ATM or eftpos terminal.
-is protected by a PIN that we have all told to a (hopefully trustworthy) friend or family member.
-can be used without a PIN in some cases if the bank or retailer is having connection problems, in which case is still checked against a signature on the card by a shop assistant who may or may not care.

My iPhone also lacks the chip on a credit card. The chip where PIN verification can be bypassed on a compromised pin pad. Or a pin pad can trivially be tricked into reverting to the magstripe.

No raised number on my iPhone either. Not that I think it would fit through an old click-clack machine, which are still used today in the event of major comms problem between retailers and banks. And again that person behind the register still may or may not be giving a dam about those signatures.

And finally we come to modern on-card tap & pay which in Australia is completely unchecked for sales under $100. And hopefully if I am bit by someone taking my card, or a scammer getting too close to me in the shops with their own terminal, hopefully my bank will reverse that money back to me in a timely manner without making me feel like a criminal for disputing a transaction.

Not to mention the fact that ApplePay is tokenised, so I hope everywhere I do use my physical cards the retailers and everyone else involved is keeping my financial details really secure. And not sharing that data with their partners for tracking.

-OR-

My bank could sign up with Apple and let me not carry around a horrendously insecure piece of money plastic and instead let me protect my finances with some of the most secure biometric security available to the general public. Come on Aussie banks, before I do my rant about online credit card payments.
 
The stupid American culture that doesn't understand the meaning of progress. Americans will whine and cry until they don't have to make progress with anything, until whatever is attempting to lead the progress gives up and we go back to 1970.

It's more we don't like "progress" that actually isn't. Going from instant transactions with swipe (as insecure as that is) to an average of ~5 seconds with the chip could be considered going backwards, for instance. Meanwhile Apple Pay adds security without making anything worse.

Anyway, I would not be surprised if a fair number of businesses simply add contactless readers and never adopt EMV here; Costco sure seems to be going in that direction anyway.
 
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I see a few people on here saying there is no major advantage to ApplePay over having a physical card when at the checkout. And I have to say that ApplePay has a few missing features when compared to a physical credit or debit card.

My iPhone doesn't have a magstripe that:
-is in no way encrypted.
-can be easily skimmed at an ATM or eftpos terminal.
-is protected by a PIN that we have all told to a (hopefully trustworthy) friend or family member.
-can be used without a PIN in some cases if the bank or retailer is having connection problems, in which case is still checked against a signature on the card by a shop assistant who may or may not care.

My iPhone also lacks the chip on a credit card. The chip where PIN verification can be bypassed on a compromised pin pad. Or a pin pad can trivially be tricked into reverting to the magstripe.

No raised number on my iPhone either. Not that I think it would fit through an old click-clack machine, which are still used today in the event of major comms problem between retailers and banks. And again that person behind the register still may or may not be giving a dam about those signatures.

And finally we come to modern on-card tap & pay which in Australia is completely unchecked for sales under $100. And hopefully if I am bit by someone taking my card, or a scammer getting too close to me in the shops with their own terminal, hopefully my bank will reverse that money back to me in a timely manner without making me feel like a criminal for disputing a transaction.

Not to mention the fact that ApplePay is tokenised, so I hope everywhere I do use my physical cards the retailers and everyone else involved is keeping my financial details really secure. And not sharing that data with their partners for tracking.

-OR-

My bank could sign up with Apple and let me not carry around a horrendously insecure piece of money plastic and instead let me protect my finances with some of the most secure biometric security available to the general public. Come on Aussie banks, before I do my rant about online credit card payments.
Look at it this way, it you use Apple Pay and somehow drop your phone and it shatters it's an expensive purchase
-or-
You could use your old insecure piece of plastic and be liable for nothing.
 
Oh I don't disagree, there's definitely a serious case for abuse of such a technology, however any solution that could potentially let me take my access card out of my wallet (we don't have to wear them, they're just RFID cards) is a win.
Umm. You HAVE tried moving the RFID card to another section of your wallet, so you can just take out your wallet and hold it in front of the reader, right? :) (I used to do that years ago) :)
 
I see a few people on here saying there is no major advantage to ApplePay over having a physical card when at the checkout. And I have to say that ApplePay has a few missing features when compared to a physical credit or debit card.

My iPhone doesn't have a magstripe that:
-is in no way encrypted.
-can be easily skimmed at an ATM or eftpos terminal.
-is protected by a PIN that we have all told to a (hopefully trustworthy) friend or family member.
-can be used without a PIN in some cases if the bank or retailer is having connection problems, in which case is still checked against a signature on the card by a shop assistant who may or may not care.

My iPhone also lacks the chip on a credit card. The chip where PIN verification can be bypassed on a compromised pin pad. Or a pin pad can trivially be tricked into reverting to the magstripe.

No raised number on my iPhone either. Not that I think it would fit through an old click-clack machine, which are still used today in the event of major comms problem between retailers and banks. And again that person behind the register still may or may not be giving a dam about those signatures.

And finally we come to modern on-card tap & pay which in Australia is completely unchecked for sales under $100. And hopefully if I am bit by someone taking my card, or a scammer getting too close to me in the shops with their own terminal, hopefully my bank will reverse that money back to me in a timely manner without making me feel like a criminal for disputing a transaction.

Not to mention the fact that ApplePay is tokenised, so I hope everywhere I do use my physical cards the retailers and everyone else involved is keeping my financial details really secure. And not sharing that data with their partners for tracking.

-OR-

My bank could sign up with Apple and let me not carry around a horrendously insecure piece of money plastic and instead let me protect my finances with some of the most secure biometric security available to the general public. Come on Aussie banks, before I do my rant about online credit card payments.


ANOTHER absolutely irrelevant posting in today's credit card world - who the hell swipes a card anymore, or runs it through an imprinter, or has a scammer standing next to them with a wand - man good thing it was on a keyboard and no paper and ink was wasted.
 
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It's more we don't like "progress" that actually isn't. Going from instant transactions with swipe (as insecure as that is) to an average of ~5 seconds with the chip could be considered going backwards, for instance. Meanwhile Apple Pay adds security without making anything worse.

It only doesn't seem like "progress" because the consumer whines about an extra 7 seconds while waiting for the chip to be read. In reality, on the other side of the fence, merchants are seeing a pretty good drop in fraudulent transactions if they have terminals that read the chips.

We're the only country that has a problem with "slow" chip transactions... Obviously it needs to be fixed, but it's certainly not "backwards" to move to chip and pin/signature.

The average American consumer is an idiot and thinks the banks reimburse money for fraudulent transactions out of the goodness of their hearts, when they and everyone else is actually paying for it, so they don't care if we hand our chip-less card to the fat pig behind the counter, who swipes the card on a $5 magnetic stripe reader glued to the side of a monitor, and the information either gets skimmed off the stripe or has the information copied down on a sheet of paper to use online later on .
 
Look at it this way, it you use Apple Pay and somehow drop your phone and it shatters it's an expensive purchase
-or-
You could use your old insecure piece of plastic and be liable for nothing.
Couldn't that logic be applied to literally anything I do on my phone. If I drop my phone trying to catch a Pikachu it would be an expensive Pokémon. Whether it's my finances or just a game, I should have some control of my personal risk. Even if that means pushing big business to adopt new technologies, or putting a phone case on.
 
Look at it this way, it you use Apple Pay and somehow drop your phone and it shatters it's an expensive purchase
-or-
You could use your old insecure piece of plastic and be liable for nothing.
Or if you're that inept, that you keep dropping your phone, you get an :apple:Watch so you never have to pull anything out to pay again. :D (well, when they bump up the transaction limits of course)
 
ANOTHER absolutely irrelevant posting in today's credit card world - who the hell swipes a card anymore, or runs it through an imprinter, or has a scammer standing next to them with a wand - man good think it was on a keyboard and no paper and ink was wasted.

Cards are finally starting to be issued without raised numbers, so apparently enough businesses did.

It only doesn't seem like "progress" because the consumer whines about an extra 7 seconds while waiting for the chip to be read. In reality, on the other side of the fence, merchants are seeing a pretty good drop in fraudulent transactions if they have terminals that read the chips.

We're the only country that has a problem with "slow" chip transactions... Obviously it needs to be fixed, but it's certainly not "backwards" to move to chip and pin/signature.

The average American consumer is an idiot and thinks the banks reimburse money for fraudulent transactions out of the goodness of their hearts, when they and everyone else is actually paying for it, so they don't care if we hand our chip-less card to the fat pig behind the counter, and the information either gets skimmed off the stripe or has the information copied down on a sheet of paper to use online later on .

It'll still be a couple of seconds longer than swiping even after it's made faster. And the "fix" for the performance complaints is basically "eliminate a bit of security by not including the purchase amount in the cryptogram" with the side-effect of permanently locking the US into chip and signature or chip and online PIN. (Unless banks want to make people go to ATMs to reset their card PINs, that is.) Probably oversimplifying, but that's the gist of it.

Apple Pay still improves things without making things worse.
 
ANOTHER absolutely irrelevant posting in today's credit card world - who the hell swipes a card anymore, or runs it through an imprinter, or has a scammer standing next to them with a wand - man good think it was on a keyboard and no paper and ink was wasted.
Considering I had my card skimmed a few years ago, and my new credit card I got just last week still has magstripe on it. Yeah, it's time to push the banks into the 21st century.

And I have worked in retail for over a decade and I know just how many cards are still swiped.
 
Maybe in your world ... but in mine ... even taxis stopped using imprinters like 15+ years ago.

Don't get me wrong, I have never had my cards imprinted in the entire time I've had cards. But I'm sure someone somewhere has had to, hence why cards have stuck with the raised numbering for so long.
 
Couldn't that logic be applied to literally anything I do on my phone. If I drop my phone trying to catch a Pikachu it would be an expensive Pokémon. Whether it's my finances or just a game, I should have some control of my personal risk. Even if that means pushing big business to adopt new technologies, or putting a phone case on.
Of course...I dont see the advantage in any pay system vs whipping out a piece of plastic. Different strokes for different folks.
 
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Since its introduction here in Canada Apple Pay has been very convinient to me and fast not to mention security and privacy. One day in the supermarket at the cash lane I realized I have forgotten my wallet at home thankfully I had my phone and used AP it saved me a very embarassing situation.
 
What's the fraud rate percentage with chip-enabled, NO pin required, contactless pay credit and debit cards with a merchant receipt that only shows the last 4-digits of the card, huh?
At Target US, some one hacked through malware and cleaned up all the credit card numbers including chip and pin number cards. So while the receipt showed the last 4 digits, the hacker got the full credit card number.
 
When Apple make a statement I'm interested and believe that they want to make things better for their customers. When Westpac make a statement I believe they are are not in the least bit concerned about their customers, only their share price.

Apple counts on such naivety. They make money selling your own bank the ability to let you access them on your own device, and you happily don't even realize you're a product.

I'm not sure how letting banks do NFC from their own apps, bypassing Apple Pay, would benefit consumers however. Are Apple's fees for Apple Pay excessive?

In some countries Apple's original US demands definitely are impossible to meet. Even in the US, used to high fees, Apple's fee (for essentially doing nothing during a contactless transaction) harms smaller banks and credit unions.

If a bank has to pay more for a transaction, customer extras like purchase awards can sometimes no longer be funded.

Another benefit to the user: more bank choice almost instantly if banks did not have to pay the Apple user access ransom. Look at how their fee held back adoption already.

How would this even work if Apple doesn't let you change defaults? Apple Pay would still be triggered from the lock screen. And if I need to manually unlock my phone and open said app, that kinda defeats the purpose of said app to begin with.

When a device gets near enough to another device or terminal to initiate communications, the two sides negotiate which app to start.

Regular open NFC implementations allow device apps to register their Application ID. So, for example, a contactless Mastercard payment works the same way it does on an iPhone: all the following communications are routed only to the Secure Element or wherever the Mastercard payment app(let) resides. But if it was a bus NFC point, your corresponding transit app would open. (In London, your Oyster app would open.)

There are also standard ways of one device telling another that it wants to send a short communication, like a URL, contact info, map address, directions, or even open a Bluetooth / WiFi connection to transfer larger media.

All that is possible and done today on Android devices.
 
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Almost all banks are like that. I spend a lot of time in Denmark and they are idiots. It makes me sick when i read their plans for mobile payments. Apps are horrible and most don't even come in english.
Why do you think a Danish bank's app should be in english? If you go to live there learn the language.
 
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If a bank has to pay more for a transaction, customer extras like purchase awards can sometimes no longer be fuAnother benefit to the user: more bank choice almost instantly if banks did not have to pay the Apple user access ransom. Look at how their fee held back adoption already.

That's an interesting choice of word to describe something the banks don't have to agree to. It's not like every smartphone user uses iOS.
 
You sure it wasn't just cards with magnetic strips - an absolutely outdated technology anywhere except the US.

"The "RAM-scraping" portion of the POS malware grabs credit/debit card information from the memory of POS-devices as cards are swiped."

RAM scraping gets whatever account number and other info is passed, no matter how it starts out.

Then the only question is, can that account info be used to make a fake card or a fraudulent online purchase? EMV transactions take care of the former, and tokenized accounts (Apple/Samsung/Android Pay) take care of the latter.

Btw, there have been a few magnetic stripe cards which used tokens so the account number could only be used in person.
 
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