Australian Regulators Targeting Apple Over '4G' Marketing Claims on New iPad

[John.B]

Is it to much to ask that Apple respect the local industry consensus in the different territories they market the product?

I though this was all supposed to clear up when Europe united under the EU banner. Are you telling us that "EU" is just marketing smoke-and-mirrors?

/kidding, of course

1. Not everyone watches Apple keynotes, this is about their marketing. 2. They have other marketing channels than their website. 3. "Not in an LTE area", but I am in an LTE area, still the iPad can't use that, because of differing frequencies. So why market 4G and LTE in areas they know is neither a supported LTE area nor an area that defines HSPA+ as 4G?

I must've missed where this was advertised as LTE-compatible in Europe (which it obviously is not), vs. 4G-compatible (which it technically is).

 

[faroZ06]

No it certainly isn't. People are fully aware if they have snow where they live and can make a purchasing decision based on that. It's the same as why that car analogy is crap, people are fully aware where or even if they're allowed to use the 250 km/h that are being advertised.
That blu-ray analogy that someone made is brilliant. What Apple is doing is as if they would market and sell a Blu-ray player, but they sell the same region A player all over the world while not making it clear to the customers in other regions that the region B discs they can buy in their country wont work on it.

It's not Apple's job to tell people where there is 4G and where there isn't. They just have to look it up. Too bad if they're too dumb to figure it out; it's still like the sled. It's easy to know whether or not you can use it.

 

[TEG]

LTE, HSPA+, and DC-HSPA (as well as WiMax) are all considered by the ITU to be 4G, even if they don't follow the original intention of the 4G moniker. Get over it.

TEG

 

[Lennholm]

why does any company do it? LTE is not available everywhere in the US, but 4G phones are still marketed as such and sold in non-LTE markets. It's marketing. you draw people in. there's no other ulterior motive behind it

I'm pretty sure no other company market and sell an LTE device in a territory that has an incompatible LTE infrastructure. Marketing an LTE device in a territory that doesn't have any LTE bu soon will is all ok if the LTE in the device is compatible with the upcoming LTE network, this is irrelevant to this discussion.
As far as I know, other companies make localized versions of their hardware which are compatible with the local infrastructures.
It would be preferable that Apple did this aswell but now that they don't, atleast they should stop using 4G as a selling point in places where it's incompatible.

------------------

It's not Apple's job to tell people where there is 4G and where there isn't. They just have to look it up.

Still not the point, we have 4G where I live, Apple sells their iPad as a 4G device, but it's not compatible with our 4G. It is Apple's job to inform us that "Sorry, it doesn't work with the 4G in your country". Sure, they do it in the fine print, but the question is, why using it as a selling point in the first place then? Excusing things with "Well, technically we're not lying" is not very Apple-like.

 

[TheBronx]

LTE, HSPA+, and DC-HSPA (as well as WiMax) are all considered by the ITU to be 4G, even if they don't follow the original intention of the 4G moniker. Get over it.

TEG

Nicely put hehe

----------

I'm pretty sure no other company market and sell an LTE device in a territory that has an incompatible LTE infrastructure. Marketing an LTE device in a territory that doesn't have any LTE bu soon will is all ok if the LTE in the device is compatible with the upcoming LTE network, this is irrelevant to this discussion.
As far as I know, other companies make localized versions of their hardware which are compatible with the local infrastructures.
It would be preferable that Apple did this aswell but now that they don't, atleast they should stop using 4G as a selling point in places where it's incompatible.

They didn't market LTE where it doesn't exist. Again...it was only stated to exist in US and Canada. Like I said, it seems your problem is that Apple didn't travel to each country and tell them LTE won't work here. Yes, they're guilty of not spoonfeeding their users...hehe

They clearly say at the keynote,on the packaging, on the website, LTE is only in USA and Canada.

 

[cube]

LTE, HSPA+, and DC-HSPA (as well as WiMax) are all considered by the ITU to be 4G, even if they don't follow the original intention of the 4G moniker. Get over it.

TEG

No, they are not.

 

[TheBronx]

No, they are not.

Yes. They are.

 

[John.B]

atleast they should stop using 4G as a selling point in places where it's incompatible.

But in Europe and Australia, it is 4G-compatible, it's just not LTE-compatible. At least according to the ITU definition of "4G".

<shakes head>

 

[cube]

Yes. They are.

No, it's undefined. ITU said they are referred to as such.

----------

But in Europe and Australia, it is 4G-compatible, it's just not LTE-compatible. At least according to the ITU definition of "4G".

<shakes head>

There is no ITU definition of 4G.

 

[John.B]

There is no ITU definition of 4G.

Then perhaps, for the sake of arguement, you can share with us where the ITU defines 4G as being exclusively LTE. Because, otherwise, this whole argument is moot.

 

[TheBronx]

No, it's undefined. ITU said they are referred to as such.

No. ITU said they may be referred to as such. Key difference. The ITU has no problem with these companies referring to themselves as 4G, and the ITU is the one who governs what 4G is. You can nitpick it if you'd like, but if the ITU had a problem with this, they wouldn't have said they understand "the term may be applied" to WiMax, HSPA+ etc. hehe

"It is recognized that [4G], while undefined, may also be applied to the forerunners of these technologies, LTE and WiMax, and to other evolved 3G technologies providing a substantial level of improvement in performance and capabilities with respect to the initial third generation systems now deployed"

Read more: http://www.cnet.com/8301-17918_1-20026228-85.html#ixzz1qLSkgMfQ

When they say "it is recognized" they mean by them. I find it pretty funny that you're saying that what they mean is "people might say its 4G, but we don't think it is" when their statement says nothing of the sort.

----------

Then perhaps, for the sake of arguement, you can share with us where the ITU defines 4G as being exclusively LTE. Because, otherwise, this whole argument is moot.

He doesn't believe that either. hehe. He thinks that 4G does not exist yet.

 

[Lennholm]

Nicely put hehe

----------



They didn't market LTE where it doesn't exist. Again...it was only stated to exist in US and Canada. Like I said, it seems your problem is that Apple didn't travel to each country and tell them LTE won't work here. Yes, they're guilty of not spoonfeeding their users...hehe

They clearly say at the keynote,on the packaging, on the website, LTE is only in USA and Canada.

You're just re-iterating things I've already answered. Why would they need to travel? I'm just saying that they shouldn't market it as 4G in countries where the only thing that counts as 4G (by industry consensus) is LTE (which in that country happens to be incompatible with the iPad).
The keynote is irrelevant to the marketing, stickers on the packaging is irrelevant to the marketing in this case because it's so late in the purchasing process, after the decision to buy has been made perhaps based on incorrect understanding of the products usability and the website is only one of many marketing channels.

----------------

But in Europe and Australia, it is 4G-compatible, it's just not LTE-compatible. At least according to the ITU definition of "4G".

<shakes head>

By local industry consensus in some of these areas, not LTE-compatible == not 4G-compatible

 

[TheBronx]

You're just re-iterating things I've already answered. Why would they need to travel? I'm just saying that they shouldn't market it as 4G in countries where the only thing that counts as 4G (by industry consensus) is LTE (which in that country happens to be incompatible with the iPad).
The keynote is irrelevant to the marketing, stickers on the packaging is irrelevant to the marketing in this case because it's so late in the purchasing process, after the decision to buy has been made perhaps based on incorrect understanding of the products usability and the website is only one of many marketing channels.

I agreed with you already that apple did not spoonfeed its users. I dont know what you want me to say hehe

People should do research before buying a product, not expect a company to do it for you. We can pass the buck to Apple if that would make you feel better, but the truth is Apple stated that if you cannot connect to 4G you can still use HSPA+ which is available in Australia and which is where their "you can still use it" applies.

Like I said, if in your eyes, the fact that Apple didn't say "Australia you cannot use 4G, because 4G is only available in the US and Canada, you can only use HSPA+ so don't blame us" means Apple is wrong, then yes they're wrong hehe . But, these "regulators" are wasting their time. Apple did nothing wrong here other then not hold an Australian's hand as they made their purchase hehe

 

[cube]

No. ITU said they may be referred to as such. Key difference. The ITU has no problem with these companies referring to themselves as 4G, and the ITU is the one who governs what 4G is. You can nitpick it if you'd like, but if the ITU had a problem with this, they wouldn't have said they understand "the term may be applied" to WiMax, HSPA+ etc. hehe



When they say "it is recognized" they mean by them. I find it pretty funny that you're saying that what they mean is "people might say its 4G, but we don't think it is" when their statement says nothing of the sort.

----------



He doesn't believe that either. hehe. He thinks that 4G does not exist yet.

The 4G term is not defined by the ITU. The ITU says IMT-Advanced is a 4G candidate, however.

 

[TheBronx]

The 4G term is not defined by the ITU. The ITU says IMT-Advanced is a 4G candidate, however.

hehe yeah i know. that's what you're running with. I'll have fun with my 4G iPhone later this year, while you play with your undefined iPhone5.

 

[cube]

----------------



By local industry consensus in some of these areas, not LTE-compatible == not 4G-compatible

You're just re-iterating things I've already answered. Why would they need to travel? I'm just saying that they shouldn't market it as 4G in countries where the only thing that counts as 4G (by industry consensus) is LTE (which in that country happens to be incompatible with the iPad).
The keynote is irrelevant to the marketing, stickers on the packaging is irrelevant to the marketing in this case because it's so late in the purchasing process, after the decision to buy has been made perhaps based on incorrect understanding of the products usability and the website is only one of many marketing channels.

That those countries accept LTE as 4G is debatable. They might only consider LTE-Advanced as 4G.

 

[Lennholm]

I agreed with you already that apple did not spoonfeed its users. I dont know what you want me to say hehe

People should do research before buying a product, not expect a company to do it for you. We can pass the buck to Apple if that would make you feel better, but the truth is Apple stated that if you cannot connect to 4G you can still use HSPA+ which is available in Australia and which is where their "you can still use it" applies.

Like I said, if in your eyes, the fact that Apple didn't say "Australia you cannot use 4G, because 4G is only available in the US and Canada, you can only use HSPA+ so don't blame us" means Apple is wrong, then yes they're wrong hehe . But, these "regulators" are wasting their time. Apple did nothing wrong here other then not hold an Australian's hand as they made their purchase hehe

Apple has always prided themselves about great customer service, if the new attitude of Apple is "As long as we don't break any laws, we can call it a day", I'm very disappointed with Apple, that's all. The Apple I know would make an effort to avoid confusing their customers, that doesn't mean spoonfeeding.

 

[TheBronx]

Apple has always prided themselves about great customer service, if the new attitude of Apple is "As long as we don't break any laws, we can call it a day", I'm very disappointed with Apple, that's all. The Apple I know would make an effort to avoid confusing their customers, that doesn't mean spoonfeeding.

I think customers are expecting too much. Apple still has excellent customer service, and this was not some half-assed attempt at clarity . They made it unequivocally clear, and there's always going to be some that are confused or complain.

Apple is not going to go down because of this, because the truth is, its such a minute minority that's whining about this. Whenever the customer satisfaction rating are released again, Apple will still be on top, believe me heh

 

[tangentially]

Are they consistent with this type of approach

I wonder how uniformly such advertising standards are applied there?

If someone advertises a computer power supply there as "dual-voltage" is that misleading since both voltages aren't available there?

 

[freediverdude]

Direct from the Apple Australian Site

Well, I am looking at the Australian Apple site right now, and it appears that part of the problem is that Apple itself does not define what it means by the term "4G" as a phrase by itself.

The fine print at the bottom of the site references the term "4G LTE" as seen here:
*4G LTE is supported only on AT&T and Verizon networks in the US; and on Bell, Rogers and Telus networks in Canada. Data plans sold separately. See your carrier for details.

And in the features section, this paragraph appears, which references only the term 3G (possibly in an attempt to reference the current vernacular for those standards in Australia):
The new iPad supports fast cellular networks the world over.2 So you can browse the web, stream content or download a movie at blazing-fast speeds. It also works on GSM/UMTS worldwide network technologies including HSPA, HSPA+ and DC-HSDPA — the fastest 3G networks out there. You’ll see downlink speeds up to 42 Mbps with DC-HSDPA and up to 21.1 Mbps with HSPA+.3

Apple doesn't define the lone term "4G" anywhere that I can see. In fact, the marketing materials for Australia seem to be very carefully worded so as to NOT define the term 4G by itself. So I think the Australian government is going to have some trouble getting this to stick, we'll see. I think the phrases "around the world" and "the world over" are going to be key to Apple's arguments, but arguments on both sides are going to be kind of shaky because "4G" just isn't defined by Apple in the context of Australia and their marketing materials.

 

[H2SO4]

Not really. You cannot globally advertise a feature that only works in ONE country without telling the customers so.

Yes it is. You can only legally do 200mph in one country. Germany on a limited number of unrestricted autobahns, I think.
One country.

 

[kerr]

Apple is in the wrong here. At least in the Australian market, the new iPad should not be marketed as a 4G device. Yet still to this day, I can order online a device which is "wifi + 4G". Apple could have avoided any issues by listing the new iPad as wifi + 3G* in those markets without a compatible 4G frequency.

http://store.apple.com/au/browse/home/shop_ipad/family/ipad/select_ipad

 

[BiggAW]

Good for them.

 

[John.B]

By local industry consensus in some of these areas, not LTE-compatible == not 4G-compatible

Well, "local industry consensus" was precisely the reason that international standards organizations were created to begin with.

I can't imagine why interoperability would be a problem where "local industry consensus" was used to set standards.

I don't have time right now, but it might be fun to look up who the European delegate organizations are that contribute to the ITU, and if there are Scandinavians on it. I'm guessing there must at least be adequate Finnish representation, given it's the corporate headquarters for Nokia.

 

[Rocketman]

One of the things I recall reading was that Apple considers HSPA+ to be 4G even though critics call it 3.5G. Australia actually has among the fastest wireless networks in the world. I am not familiar with all the protocols, but the iPad is probably faster in Australia than it is in the USA for "most users".

Rocketman