AV Artists Complain Monterey 'Orange Dot' Security Feature Makes Macs Unsuitable for Live Performances

[usagora]

More like your SENSE of security vs my livelihood. let me think...

Too much melodrama on both sides of this. Somehow I doubt an orange dot is putting your livelihood at risk. And the guy that replied right above me even said it's a "monumental f-up" LOL! Hardly. But I agree Apple should provide a native option to remove it when the display is being projected.

 

[DocNo]

And yes, if you keep your main content closer towards the middle of the screen, having a small orange dot at the top right will not distract from the action or titles because it is outside the title/action safe area.

So using a Mac I should always plan to get less than the full resolution I'm paying for? Yet with other platforms I can get full resolution without compromise?

Your an excellent salesmen for why I should choose or stick with the Mac

 

[DocNo]

the simple answer is your business does not out weigh my right to privacy.

How does showing a flipping dot on ALL displays protect your privacy more than only showing it on the main display?

Also features like this are just a placebo - there's already one program out there than can disable it. If you were really concerned a hardware light like on the camera is the best way to go - demand they add that if it's really so serious of a concern for you

 

[DocNo]

Maybe those presentations are not coming directly out of the main HDMI port, but rather through software that can handle external video encoders via Thunderbolt such as a Blackmagic UltraStudio or AJA T-TAP? That workflow would probably bypass the orange dot.

Shows up on NDI virtual monitors. And even if a thunderbolt display bypassed it (which I doubt it would) why should I have to insert unneeded hardware to "fix" a problem that shouldn't exist in the first place?

 

[DocNo]

And I literally asked why can't you use ANOTHER COMPUTER for the projector ?

Digital audio. Sending audio to a digital mixing console via DANTE? Well DANTE supports audio in too so the OS sees it as a microphone.

So you get the stupid orange dot. Even if you don't have audio recording via DANTE, because it's possible the dot shows up.

This is an asinine "solution" that should have never made it out of the lab. I can see having the dot on displays with the menu bar present - but if you have the menubar and OS elements hidden on a display it's usually for a damn good reason.

Apple is still clueless about professional use of their products, despite their continued bloviating that they are all for "pro" users. I've been a LONG time Mac user (still have my original Mac Plus from 1986) but I am getting beyond tired of "Nanny Apple". I'm so glad ProPresenter rewrote their software and Windows is on equal, if not better footing than with the Mac. I've stopped recommending and buying Mac's for presentation machines because of stupid crap like this that Apple does constantly. I'm tired of fighting with them about what I should be able to do with MY computer so only doing Windows machines from now on

 

[DocNo]

Too much melodrama on both sides of this. Somehow I doubt an orange dot is putting your livelihood at risk. And the guy that replied right above me even said it's a "monumental f-up" LOL! Hardly. But I agree Apple should provide a native option to remove it when the display is being projected.

It is a monumental f!@k up - should have never shipped. Putting ANYTHING on an external display that isn't desired is utterly unacceptable - period.

As I said in another post I'm so glad the presentation software we rely on is now on equal footing on Windows as well as the Mac and we have been moving off of Mac for some time because of constant issues with Apple doing stupid crap like this or being totally ambivalent in addressing constant issues with external displays.

 

[usagora]

It is a monumental f!@k up - should have never shipped. Putting ANYTHING on an external display that isn't desired is utterly unacceptable - period.

As I said in another post I'm so glad the presentation software we rely on is now on equal footing on Windows as well as the Mac and we have been moving off of Mac for some time because of constant issues with Apple doing stupid crap like this or being totally ambivalent in addressing constant issues with external displays.

You're clearly heated about this, so I'm just going to back away before I get hurt, mkay? ??

 

[skitidetdu]

Most professional software is broken by macOS updates, and it’s common practice to not only avoid betas, but wait well beyond release for the software manufacturer to issue a green light. Like Abelton, serato, OBX, etc.

Stay at least one OS generation behind

 

[skitidetdu]

Really?
Exactly where would you apply the electric tape?
On the projector lens?
Great solution, projector owner will be delighted.
Another genius idea could be to cut a hole in the screen at the exact orange-dot position, right?

The electric tape will melt from the heat and destroy the lens...

Just goes to show that people will go out of their way to find something trivial to complain about ??‍♂️

The fact that you use ?‍♂️ in your post says a lot.

 

[deevey]

Stay at least one OS generation behind

Agreed, but what happens if the orange dot is STILL there next years release and Monterey IS one generation behind.

Kicking up a big fuss at this point is the only way to ensure this does not make it into future generations of MacOS.

 

[omihek]

So just an observation but if Apple does provide a way for the dot to be disabled that to me means that functionality could be used to disable the dot when it shouldn't be. So I guess the question here really is why would it be acceptable for my privacy to suffer for you? It seems like you are willing to say that is ok.
There should be some solution but it should not involve an easy to use disable feature.

Was your privacy suffering before macOS Monterey came out? Is your privacy now suffering less because I have a big orange dot on all my displays? I'd say it's ok to let the owner of the Mac decide whether they want a big orange dot all over the place. Give users a default behavior and let them change it if they want.

 

[Shadowcatz]

Was your privacy suffering before macOS Monterey came out? Is your privacy now suffering less because I have a big orange dot on all my displays? I'd say it's ok to let the owner of the Mac decide whether they want a big orange dot all over the place. Give users a default behavior and let them change it if they want.

Again, if you can turn it off then it can be exploited. I am sorry that seems to be a hard concept to understand.

 

[fompsweeva]

Again, if you can turn it off then it can be exploited. I am sorry that seems to be a hard concept to understand.

It already can be turned off via a script.

 

[micpool]

For multiple displays (arranged side by side) use this quick AppleScript fix to remove the dot from any display that does not have the menu bar visible.


tell application "System Events" to tell application process "Control Centre" --US and International English users should use "Control Center"
repeat with eachwindow in windows
set theCurrentPosition to the position ofeachwindow
set the position of eachwindow to {(item 1 oftheCurrentPosition), -20} --this sets the dot position above the bounds of each display
end repeat
end tell


It's unclear if the fact that position is a modifiable attribute of windows of "control centre" is by design or just an oversight, most of the other attributes are non modifiable, so it's essential to continue to send bug reports to apple explaining the impact the orange dot on displays that don't show the menu bar has on the events and theatre industries, as it's probably very easy for Apple to make this a non modifiable attribute in future security updates or OS versions, if they didn't intend users to be able to modify those attributes in the first place.

Obviously I have no problem with the dot appearing in the control centre in the menu bar to protect users privacy. My fix does not affect this useful security feature. The hiding of the dots is temporary.

I don’t think Apple could have been too concerned about users temporarily hiding the dots on secondary monitors, as they have made this so easily scriptable.

 

[AndyMacAndMic]

Again, if you can turn it off then it can be exploited. I am sorry that seems to be a hard concept to understand.

If the dot functionality stays 'on' on the primary screen and can be turned off on secundary screens how does that affect safety at all? The safety (the dot is still visible on one screen) and the 'risk to be exploited' stay exactly the same as before. Not a hard concept to understand either.

 

[chucker23n1]

Again, if you can turn it off then it can be exploited. I am sorry that seems to be a hard concept to understand.

It's fine if Apple wants to default to showing the dot on all displays. However, this clearly isn't ideal for everyone. I think the Dock & Menu Bar preference pane should get a new section Microphone (or an expansion of Sound), with a bunch of radio buttons:

Show microphone indicator:
( ) On recording application’s display
(•) On all displays

Perhaps the display could also be determined by where the mouse is. Or the preference could limit it to displays that aren't set to full screen.

On top of that, personally, I'd like a third option:

( ) Only in Control Center

 

[bgillander]

Again, if you can turn it off then it can be exploited. I am sorry that seems to be a hard concept to understand.

I’m concerned you are getting a false sense of security from this dot. The true bad actors making spy software like NSO Group’s Pegasus have likely already disabled the feature as Apple does with Siri, and a dot on a second screen is not their problem. This merely affects end-users, much like DRM only makes life miserable for actual paying customers because pirates remove the DRM from their movies.

 

[chucker23n1]

I’m concerned you are getting a false sense of security from this dot. The true bad actors making spy software like NSO Group’s Pegasus have likely already disabled the feature

Maybe. I expect Apple to patch the System Events hole (being able to hide the dot by moving it to an offscreen location) rather quickly.

as Apple does with Siri

I'm not sure what this means.

, and a dot on a second screen is not their problem. This merely affects end-users,

The purpose of this feature is to help end users, not affect them. (And for most users, it succeeds.)

 

[bgillander]

Maybe. I expect Apple to patch the System Events hole (being able to hide the dot by moving it to an offscreen location) rather quickly.



I'm not sure what this means.



The purpose of this feature is to help end users, not affect them. (And for most users, it succeeds.)

Helping or hindering is having an effect, so end-users with either would be affected. I mean that it likely isn’t even an issue for NSO Group or major bad actors, so has no effect on them, but a product of that would mean the end-users most in need of that actual security, such as actual targets of Pegasus, would be lulled into a false sense of security by not seeing the dot that Pegasus disabled.

The Siri reference was to an earlier comment that the dot does not appear when Siri is used on the Mac. I have held back upgrading to avoid early adoption issues, but if that is true it would indicate Apple is bypassing this feature (or Siri is listening without using the mic, which would be even more creepy.) I have not personally confirmed this feature, so perhaps I misunderstood the context, but that was how I read it. YMMV.

 

[chucker23n1]

Helping or hindering is having an effect, so end-users with either would be affected. I mean that it likely isn’t even an issue for NSO Group or major bad actors, so has no effect on them,

Well, right now, there's a known security hole. But once that's patched, it depends on whether NSO Group knows of another. They're very sophisticated, but they're not magicians.

but a product of that would mean the end-users most in need of that actual security, such as actual targets of Pegasus, would be lulled into a false sense of security by not seeing the dot that Pegasus disabled.

Yes, but that's a leap.

The Siri reference was to an earlier comment that the dot does not appear when Siri is used on the Mac.

It does, though. I've just tried it. While Siri is listening to my command, I see an orange dot on all of my displays.

I've also tried with macOS Dictation. Same thing. Orange dot.

So it doesn't look to me like Apple is special-casing themselves.

 

[micpool]

I must say I'm quite shocked at the vehemence of certain posters in their determination to see the dot on displays without menu bars be made a permanent feature, without the user option to override the behaviour, as users currently can, with firewalls, passwords, full disk access, encryption, and many other far more important OS level security features.

It should also be borne in mind that any third party app, if it can even be installed at all without significant input from the user indicating that they really, really want to install it, has to be given explicit password protectable permission to access the microphone (and therefore any audio input) when it is first used, and that the list of applications permitted to access the microphone is accessible in security preferences and can be checked and amended at any time.

Surely these safeguards, and the permanent 'mic in use' indicator in the menu bar control centre should be enough for any user to be satisfied their audio inputs are secure from malevolent use, without them proselytising further measures which significantly impact a large number of users in the AV industries, many of whom have been using Macs for over 30 years, precisely because they have been a great platform for use in live theatre and events, which the orange dot issue immediately stops them being.

I also don't see any evidence of these posters having complained about the lack of any indicators at all, when third party software is making screen recordings of other applications, or key logging, which would seem to me to be a much greater threat to their security, so quite why they have picked this particular issue to be so vociferous is quite beyond me.

The logical end result of these demands for fanatical high levels of security would require Apple to remove all the Accessibility features which allow third party apps, with permission, to control most aspects of a Mac's operation for the benefit of those users requiring assistive technology, which would really be a sad day, if it were ever to happen.

 

[omihek]

Again, if you can turn it off then it can be exploited. I am sorry that seems to be a hard concept to understand.

Again, was your privacy suffering before macOS Monterey came out? Is your privacy now suffering less because I have a big orange dot on all my displays? I am sorry that seems to be a hard question to answer.

 

[chucker23n1]

Again, was your privacy suffering before macOS Monterey came out? Is your privacy now suffering less because I have a big orange dot on all my displays? I am sorry that seems to be a hard question to answer.

Yes, without the dot, there’s a potential privacy issue. How is that even in question?

 

[AndyMacAndMic]

Yes, without the dot, there’s a potential privacy issue. How is that even in question?

As far as I can see in this thread, it is not about removing the dot entirely, but about having the choice to turn it off on secondary screens. It stays visible on the primary screen. How can this be a potential privacy issue, if it still is functional and clearly visible on the primary screen?

 

[chucker23n1]

As far as I can see in this thread, it is not about removing the dot entirely, but about having the choice to turn it off on secondary screens. It stays visible on the primary screen. How can this be a potential privacy issue, if it still is functional and clearly visible on the primary screen?

I agree — you should be able to limit the dot to one display, or to displays that have a menu bar, or something like that.

But, you were asking about better privacy than before Monterey? Which, yeah, it's better. Not by a huge margin, but better.