Avengers Endgame (with spoilers)

[Huntn]

"I suggest you don't worry about those things and just enjoy yourself."

- Basil Exposition



Observer effect / quantum theory [... ? ...]

The movie was a terrific take on comic book material, closed the out this round of the MCU nicely, had outstanding character moments, had amazing closure to Tony Stark's arch (or +arc+ ) , setup a few characters for the next round of movies, touched on some nice ideas of destiny, the one vs. the many, sacrifice, it's fun, good, entertaining, I'm happy with the two movies.

Your quote: Exactly!
I agree that Tony Stark had a touching ending. I was pleased with Thanos's fate in the beginning. But now the idea of restoring all the people gone by using time travel. You've got to take a golf ball sized suspension of disbelief pill for the narrative the writers went with.

It's possible that I was too focused on the changes they wrought in their visit to the past, however, for example just knocking out Peter Quill, and taking the stone would have changed the story to such a degree that the Guardians of the Galaxy might never have happened. I have to wonder why the writers used time travel only to tell the audience, the stones have been gathered, as if to imply that was the only change that resulted from their time travel, much too simplistic.

More satisfying would have been weaving a story, where significant evident changes result in the time line, with a completely different present day reality and the only people who knew were the Avengers who went back and returned. So different that there could be duplicates of themselves living their lives along with Thanos who is also alive because of these changes (ie, he had not yet had an opportunity to wipe out half of the life in the universe, and was still looking for these stones because they mysteriously disappeared). Never mind that the time machine might not even be there to take them back. Anyway Thanos would then becomes aware that the Avengers have them all, and a confrontation results, while understanding how complex such a story might be, but I firmly believe a creative writer could have come up with something better.

...better than using the time machine to bring Thanos from the past, as if Nebula could look at a time machine and in 30 seconds figure out how to pull Thanos and his thousands of forces including his war machines from the past. Remember the time machine was used to send people back, not pull people out of the past and more importantly for them to travel, they needed to shrink down to quantum size, using Pym Particles, which neither Thanos or his forces had, including the fancy suits needed to facilitate this kind of travel. This is a logic failure in story telling, where the writers hope that you are so taken up with THE BIG BATTLE, you won't notice.

Again the answer is don't question, don't think, just accept.

 

[Huntn]

This goes against what I said about over-analyzing time travel, but if he lived life the way he did and came back to that moment, that means he stayed behind the scenes while all the events of the MCU still happened? I mean it's possible but very unlikely as that goes against everything Captain America stood for in the MCU. And let's just say he left all the events played out the way they did, living life with Peggy would mean he's altering her life she had when he was frozen which conflicts with the unnamed husband and children she had mentioned in the Winter Soldier.

Sure what you said makes sense, but seeing that scene was an almost instant WTF moment, more than anything else that was played out earlier in the film.

If he goes back, he’d meet his myself, so did he kill himself and take his place? Then his original self would not have saved the world or would he?

 

[kazmac]

Endgame left a very bad taste in my mouth, except for Sam Wilson getting the shield which is what I hoped would happen with the next Cap.

I'll eventually tune in to Disney+ for The Falcon and The Winter Soldier & especially the Moon Knight series, but I thought Endgame was terrible. Glad I've forgotten most of it.

I am all for handing the keys to the kingdom over to some new characters (as I suspect the Black Widow movie will do and I'll see that one), but the way some of the characters bowed out in this hopefully last Avengers movie was not executed well at all. Overall it was a mess.

 

[JBGoode]

Your quote: Exactly!
I agree that Tony Stark had a touching ending. I was pleased with Thanos's fate in the beginning. But now the idea of restoring all the people gone by using time travel. You've got to take a golf ball sized suspension of disbelief pill for the narrative the writers went with.

It's possible that I was too focused on the changes they wrought in their visit to the past, however, for example just knocking out Peter Quill, and taking the stone would have changed the story to such a degree that the Guardians of the Galaxy might never have happened. I have to wonder why the writers used time travel only to tell the audience, the stones have been gathered, as if to imply that was the only change that resulted from their time travel, much too simplistic.

More satisfying would have been weaving a story, where significant evident changes result in the time line, with a completely different present day reality and the only people who knew were the Avengers who went back and returned. So different that there could be duplicates of themselves living their lives along with Thanos who is also alive because of these changes (ie, he had not yet had an opportunity to wipe out half of the life in the universe, and was still looking for these stones because they mysteriously disappeared). Never mind that the time machine might not even be there to take them back. Anyway Thanos would then becomes aware that the Avengers have them all, and a confrontation results, while understanding how complex such a story might be, but I firmly believe a creative writer could have come up with something better.

...better than using the time machine to bring Thanos from the past, as if Nebula could look at a time machine and in 30 seconds figure out how to pull Thanos and his thousands of forces including his war machines from the past. Remember the time machine was used to send people back, not pull people out of the past and more importantly for them to travel, they needed to shrink down to quantum size, using Pym Particles, which neither Thanos or his forces had, including the fancy suits needed to facilitate this kind of travel. This is a logic failure in story telling, where the writers hope that you are so taken up with THE BIG BATTLE, you won't notice.

Again the answer is don't question, don't think, just accept.

That's why Cap went back and returned the stones to the exact moment they were taken so those events could play out exactly as they did. Peter Quill was never knocked out etc, etc. The alternate timelines that were created by the missing stones were undone.

But yes-- don't think about it too hard because it starts to hurt.

 

[decafjava]

"I suggest you don't worry about those things and just enjoy yourself."

- Basil Exposition



Observer effect / quantum theory [... ? ...]

The movie was a terrific take on comic book material, closed the out this round of the MCU nicely, had outstanding character moments, had amazing closure to Tony Stark's arch (or +arc+ ) , setup a few characters for the next round of movies, touched on some nice ideas of destiny, the one vs. the many, sacrifice, it's fun, good, entertaining, I'm happy with the two movies.

Yea I agree totally, I just have to accept some people don't like what I like and I'm ok with that.

I do suggest people look up a slew of youtube videos tagged "One Marvelous scene" that highlights what scenes fans chose are exceptional examples of writing/acting etc.

 

[alpi123]

Endgame left a very bad taste in my mouth, except for Sam Wilson getting the shield which is what I hoped would happen with the next Cap.

I'll eventually tune in to Disney+ for The Falcon and The Winter Soldier & especially the Moon Knight series, but I thought Endgame was terrible. Glad I've forgotten most of it.

I am all for handing the keys to the kingdom over to some new characters (as I suspect the Black Widow movie will do and I'll see that one), but the way some of the characters bowed out in this hopefully last Avengers movie was not executed well at all. Overall it was a mess.

Indeed a huge mess. Some people call it lazy writing, some not.

 

[Huntn]

That's why Cap went back and returned the stones to the exact moment they were taken so those events could play out exactly as they did. Peter Quill was never knocked out etc, etc. The alternate timelines that were created by the missing stones were undone.

But yes-- don't think about it too hard because it starts to hurt.

I remember hearing that but did not key on on it’s significance, and now I’m even more confused. If Cap went back and put the stones back to where they were, when they were taken, wouldn't the time line been returned back to square one allowing Thanos to win?

My gut reaction is that the writers relied on time travel magic to confuse everyone so much, they just accepted the narrative, and they never explain how Thanos and his troops where brought forward without Pym particles and suits to navigate the quantum realm, does it?

And think about it, if Thanos and his troops were brought forward, the time line would have been so screwed up as to be unrecognizable, unless they are thinking of parallel time lines, then it gets too hard to think about. Maybe the good guys win in one time line, and Thanos wins in the other.

Infinity War was outstanding followed by the writers falling on their quills for End Game..

 

[decafjava]

Infinity War was outstanding followed by the writers falling on their quills for End Game..

In your opinion.

This article and a slew of others explain it pretty well for something in reality quite mind bending and really impossible to get completely 100% without a paradox. Good thing time travel isn't real.

https://www.thisisbarry.com/film/avengers-endgame-timeline-explained-no-plot-holes/

https://screenrant.com/avengers-endgame-time-travel-explained/

https://www.vox.com/2019/4/26/18514287/avengers-endgame-ending-explained-spoiler

 

[JBGoode]

I remember hearing that but did not key on on it’s significance, and now I’m even more confused. If Cap went back and put the stones back to where they were, when they were taken, wouldn't the time line been returned back to square one allowing Thanos to win?

My gut reaction is that the writers relied on time travel magic to confuse everyone so much, they just accepted the narrative, and they never explain how Thanos and his troops where brought forward without Pym particles and suits to navigate the quantum realm, does it?

And think about it, if Thanos and his troops were brought forward, the time line would have been so screwed up as to be unrecognizable, unless they are thinking of parallel time lines, then it gets too hard to think about. Maybe the good guys win in one time line, and Thanos wins in the other.

Infinity War was outstanding followed by the writers falling on their quills for End Game..

Well it still doesn't change the fact that they did take them so I dunno....good point though. I think putting the stones back allowed the timeline to continue unaltered up until the point they go back and get them but I stopped trying to make sense of it about 5 minutes after it ended.

 

[Huntn]

In your opinion.

This article and a slew of others explain it pretty well for something in reality quite mind bending and really impossible to get completely 100% without a paradox. Good thing time travel isn't real.

https://www.thisisbarry.com/film/avengers-endgame-timeline-explained-no-plot-holes/

https://screenrant.com/avengers-endgame-time-travel-explained/

https://www.vox.com/2019/4/26/18514287/avengers-endgame-ending-explained-spoiler

I agree there is a huge paradox, requiring the ultimate in suspension of disbelief to swallow the End Game story.

Here is the bottom line, imo :

• There is the original time line up though End Game when they rely on time travel razzle, dazzle magic to change the outcome.
• So after the fact, they used a time machine based on Pym particles, and transporting though the quantum realm, go back and take the stones- this in itself would have changed/invalidate everything we’ve watched since Peter Quill picked up the first stone, including what we saw in Infinity War and End Game! And they went back and took 6 stones from different times! The resulting future could/would be unrecognizable. It’s an all or nothing proposition.
• And if later you could somehow go back and put all the stones back exactly where and when they were taken, the time line would be restored, and everything that happened, would have happened per the original time line, including Thanos winning and killing half of all life in the universe.
• The most glaring technical fault of the narrative, there is NO explanation offered about how Nebula could stand at the time machine and bring Thanos and his army forward without Pym particles and fancy suits in their prossession.

 

[decafjava]

I agree there is a huge paradox, requiring the ultimate in suspension of disbelief to swallow the End Game story.

Here is the bottom line, imo :

• There is the original time line up though End Game when they rely on time travel razzle, dazzle magic to change the outcome.
• So after the fact, they used a time machine based on Pym particles, and transporting though the quantum realm, go back and take the stones- this in itself would have changed/invalidate everything we’ve watched since Peter Quill picked up the first stone, including what we saw in Infinity War and End Game! And they went back and took 6 stones from different times! The resulting future could/would be unrecognizable. It’s an all or nothing proposition.
• And if later you could somehow go back and put all the stones back exactly where and when they were taken, the time line would be restored, and everything that happened, would have happened per the original time line, including Thanos winning and killing half of all life in the universe.
• The most glaring technical fault of the narrative, there is NO explanation offered about how Nebula could stand at the time machine and bring Thanos and his army forward without Pym particles and fancy suits in their prossession.

Hmmm did you read the linked articles? Just curious, I'm not up for a huge debate I really liked it you didn't and that's fine.

I mean there was a pretty creepy paradox at the end of Back to the Future that only struck me afterwards but I still love that film. Oh I am sure there is an explanation somehow - the paradox is when Marty McFly returns to the "corrected" present where his family are welathy, his parents health nuts and his siblings dressed fancy and his brother says something to the effect of "oh you slept in your clothes again". Marty doesn't remember any of this present - WHO WAS THE MARTY HIS FAMILY KNEW??

 

[D.T.]

• The most glaring technical fault of the narrative, there is NO explanation offered about how Nebula could stand at the time machine and bring Thanos and his army forward without Pym particles and fancy suits in their prossession.

45 second search turned this up, right from the Russos:

???

 

[Huntn]

Hmmm did you read the linked articles? Just curious, I'm not up for a huge debate I really liked it you didn't and that's fine.

I mean there was a pretty creepy paradox at the end of Back to the Future that only struck me afterwards but I still love that film. Oh I am sure there is an explanation somehow - the paradox is when Marty McFly returns to the "corrected" present where his family are welathy, his parents health nuts and his siblings dressed fancy and his brother says something to the effect of "oh you slept in your clothes again". Marty doesn't remember any of this present - WHO WAS THE MARTY HIS FAMILY KNEW??

I never questioned Back To The Future. I agree, the viewer either likes or dislikes the narrative/premise in any time travel story.

I looked at 2 of the links and read nothing that convinced me. Yes, it’s time travel so the viewer is put into the position being able to suspend disbelief or not.

What about the Pym particles issue? I did not see that addressed in the links I looked at.
[doublepost=1568043263][/doublepost]

45 second search turned this up, right from the Russos:

View attachment 856848


???

Ok it’s magic, no problem. Were they wearing special suits when they popped into the future? Maybe the genius is so good they did not need suits.

 

[Number-Six]

• And if later you could somehow go back and put all the stones back exactly where and when they were taken, the time line would be restored, and everything that happened, would have happened per the original time line, including Thanos winning and killing half of all life in the universe.

Except that they didn't go back to prevent Thanos from killing half the universe in the past, they went to get the stones to bring back, in the present/future, everyone who Thanos snapped out of existence.

It's even addressed in the movie, as to why they can't just go back and prevent Thanos from getting the stones.

 

[Huntn]

Except that they didn't go back to prevent Thanos from killing half the universe in the past, they went to get the stones to bring back, in the present/future, everyone who Thanos snapped out of existence.

It's even addressed in the movie, as to why they can't just go back and prevent Thanos from getting the stones.

Yes, but...

• Taking the stones would have changed the time line to an extent that the present they left would have been severely altered, into something possibly unrecognizable, even likely the time machine they depended on to travel might not have been there to allow them to return.
• And half of the life in the universe would have never disappeared, therefore we would not have seen all of the missing avengers pop back in, because they never left, just as taking the stones would have prevented Thanos from winning (destroying half of all life)*
• And then going back and putting the stones back exactly where and when they were taken would have returned the timeline back to where Thanos wins, because nothing was changed. But I thought Cap went back and hid the stones so they could not be found? Again the result be a hugely altered timeline and none of that was addressed. They went back, did their thing, and it had virtually zero effect on the time line the viewer watched. Oh, and Cap decided to go back and live a normal life, so did he stop the Germans in WWII?

* Another thing, how was randomly removing half of all life supposed to make existence perfect for the universe and those who remain? Why was it better? Where all the bad peoples erased? Nope. It seemed like a huge assumption and a half baked idea.

I remember watching back in the 80s or 90s a movie about time travelers who would go back in time to either watch a Dino or shoot a Dino, that was about to die anyway. There was a walkway and you were not supposed to step off it, but one guy slips and accidentally kills a bug. When they go back everything is different. If we are looking at a single time line, this is a good example of how changing one little thing in the past could result in huge changes from what you remember the present to be. This aspect of messing with the time line was completely blown off in End Game.

 

[decafjava]

* Another thing, how was randomly removing half of all life supposed to make existence perfect for the universe and those who remain? Why was it better? Where all the bad peoples erased? Nope. It seemed like a huge assumption and a half baked idea.

Breaking my rule, but it was supposed to be a bad idea. To save resources, and it was supposed to be "fair" by being random, rich, poor, bad or good all had an equal chance to be erased or spared. It was supposed to show Thanos as malevolent, I mean why not double resources right?

 

[D.T.]

Another thing, how was randomly removing half of all life supposed to make existence perfect for the universe and those who remain? Why was it better? Where all the bad peoples erased? Nope. It seemed like a huge assumption and a half baked idea.

Because Thanos is __insane__.

 

[Number-Six]

Yes, but...

• Taking the stones would have changed the time line to an extent that the present they left would have been severely altered, into something possibly unrecognizable, even likely the time machine they depended on to travel might not have been there to allow them to return.
• And half of the life in the universe would have never disappeared, therefore we would not have seen all of the missing avengers pop back in, because they never left, just as taking the stones would have prevented Thanos from winning (destroying half of all life)*
• And then going back and putting the stones back exactly where and when they were taken would have returned the timeline back to where Thanos wins, because nothing was changed. But I thought Cap went back and hid the stones so they could not be found? Again the result be a hugely altered timeline and none of that was addressed. They went back, did their thing, and it had virtually zero effect on the time line the viewer watched. Oh, and Cap decided to go back and live a normal life, so did he stop the Germans in WWII?

* Another thing, how was randomly removing half of all life supposed to make existence perfect for the universe and those who remain? Why was it better? Where all the bad peoples erased? Nope. It seemed like a huge assumption and a half baked idea.

I remember watching back in the 80s or 90s a movie about time travelers who would go back in time to either watch a Dino or shoot a Dino, that was about to die anyway. There was a walkway and you were not supposed to step off it, but one guy slips and accidentally kills a bug. When they go back everything is different. If we are looking at a single time line, this is a good example of how changing one little thing in the past could result in huge changes from what you remember the present to be. This aspect of messing with the time line was completely blown off in End Game.

Clearly science fiction is not for you.

 

[decafjava]

Clearly science fiction is not for you.

I think that's a bit unfair. Not speaking for @Huntn but I know we are both fans of OT Star Wars and even the prequels. I am a Dr Who fan but was let down by the writing and general tone of Series 11 and like the actor that plays the current Doctor. I really like Star Trek Discovery even with issues with continuity and canon with the rest of ST. Just opinions.

*Mine are correct though.

 

[Number-Six]

I think that's a bit unfair. Not speaking for @Huntn but I know we are both fans of OT Star Wars and even the prequels. I am a Dr Who fan but was let down by the writing and general tone of Series 11 and like the actor that plays the current Doctor. I really like Star Trek Discovery even with issues with continuity and canon with the rest of ST. Just opinions.

*Mine are correct though.

I was specifically speaking to @Huntn because most, if not all, of his questions are directly answered by watching the movie.

It's one thing to say that you don't like how a story was handled, and perfectly valid. But to argue that the way time travel was handled makes no sense ... is an argument that makes no sense.

It's as tiresome as these people arguing that science fiction movies who depict space battles with sound are somehow diminished because there's no sound in space.

 

[Huntn]

Ok guys, I’ve expressed my Endgame critique in a completely calm manner. I’m not upset, and I hope I’ve not upset you. Not my intent, and if so I apologize. All is good, Infinity Game will be in my Library, and for Endgame I’ll have a sleeve with a note in it that says Thanos won, but the surviving Avengers caught up with him and got vengeance. Then they used some magic to undo what had been done, just because they had omnipotent writers.

Regarding Time Travel, I just updated my time travel thread. Nothing personal directed at the fans of Avengers: Endgame.

Because Thanos is __insane__.

Everything he did seemed rational although he was a megalomaniac.

Clearly science fiction is not for you.

Completely untrue, science fiction is one of my favorite genres. And for time travel, it depends on the movie.
[doublepost=1568129748][/doublepost]

I was specifically speaking to @Huntn because most, if not all, of his questions are directly answered by watching the movie.

It's one thing to say that you don't like how a story was handled, and perfectly valid. But to argue that the way time travel was handled makes no sense ... is an argument that makes no sense.

It's as tiresome as these people arguing that science fiction movies who depict space battles with sound are somehow diminished because there's no sound in space.

No they are not, I watched the movie.
Time travel frequently involves paradoxes. That is a given, and it is completely up to some measure of logic and personal taste as to how the individual receives such a movie/story. Ultimately my arguments against certain depictions of time travel are just as valid as your arguments for certain depictions. The best is to State your case and then agree to disagree, on friendly terms.

Btw, I’m not one of these people.

 

[D.T.]

O

Everything he did seemed rational although he was a megalomaniac.

Yeah, Hannibal Lecter seems rational up till he eats a census taker ...

 

[Huntn]

Yeah, Hannibal Lecter seems rational up till he eats a census taker ...

That could be a good discussion about evil vs insane. Wait, that may already be a thread!

 

[Huntn]

Thanks @JayMysterio for bringing this to my attention!
Good God, Black Widow's Alternate Avengers: Endgame Death Is Infinitely Better Than What We Got

Good God, Black Widow's Alternate Avengers: Endgame Death Is Infinitely Better Than What We Got

Avengers: Endgame did a lot over the course of its bonkers, audacious runtime. For better or worse, it kind of had to. But trying to do so much, tying together 10 years of moviemaking into a single, only occasionally coherent narrative, inevitably meant that some plotlines just would not wrap up...

io9.gizmodo.com