What does he have to learn? Not to be happy after an accomplishment? Good thing no one besides SF will be celebrating Barry Bonds if he beats Hank Aaron.Sayhey said:
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Baseball Season 2006
- Thread starter MacNut
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cycocelica said:
He has to learn good sportsmanship. I know it is a lost art, but it still is worthwhile. When players do things that show up other players - like high-fiving fans after a homerun - it shows little respect for other players. It also is counterproductive because it tends to wake up the opposition like it did in the game in question.
As to Bonds beating Aaron's record, not that it has anything to do with the topic under discussion, but if it does happen you will be surprised how many people, especially other players, from across the country will celebrate the accomplishment. If you don't want to that is fine, but Bonds doesn't need your approval. Believe me when I tell you he isn't looking for Yankees' fans to applaud him.
Sayhey said:
Who's he going to learn it from, Barry Bonds?
Sorry, but I really did have to ask.
MacNut said:Name one good game Matt Clement has had this season.
He's 5-4. I know he's had his troubles, and my blood pressure raises whenever I see him pitch. However, I wouldn't call a over 500 pitcher a disaster by any means.
Ben
IJ Reilly said:
No problem. In this case I would hope he would learn from Willie Randolph and some of the Mets' veteran players. It looks like they are trying to do just that. Listen, I'm not making what this kid did into some kind a horrible crime; it was a mistake on his part. I just can't see where people want to make a virtue out of his showboating. As to my comments about what would have been the reaction of players from an early era, I stand by them. Do you think Drysdale or Gibson wouldn't have thrown at the kid's head after that stunt?
He could learn from Barry. Other than doing his act of standing at the plate while watching his homeruns, something that is commonplace in today's game, he treats other players with tremendous respect. Doesn't mean he makes friends easily, but he doesn't run other players down or blame them when they make mistakes. The kid could learn from a lot worse.
MacNut said:
I'm not talking about the union (which can hardly be called a joke - it's the most powerful union in sports,) but rather the many players, both current and retired, who have come to Barry's defense in a time in which he is being made a scapegoat for the sins of many. Watch what Clemens, Wagner, Jeter, Griffey, Pujols, and many others say if he makes it passed Aaron. They respect Bonds even if large segments of the fan base of their respective clubs have bought into the view of the press that he is somehow the devil incarnate. Perhaps it is because, as fellow players, they know just how widespread the problem of steroids is, or perhaps it is just because they don't let other's hysteria blind them to the best talent of this era.
With fans from other cities, I would expect them to boo Barry as they always have, but there are still those who will rise and applaud when they see greatness on the field - regardless of which uniform a player wears. If you're not one of those, ok, but I wouldn't brag about it.
btw, did anyone notice when Barry hit 715 an Umpire stopped him on his way to his position and gave him a hug in recognition of his achievement? THAT'S something I've never seen in all my 40 some years of watching this game.
Its a joke because it is so powerful, how long will it be before we see the union agree to blood tests to check for HGH how long did it take for steroid testing, The last strike was the greedy union. Id say they are a good reason why baseball is in this mess now.Sayhey said:
If and when these 10 names are leaked it will send a shock wave through baseball that could shake the game to its core and it might do more irreversible damage then the 94 strike ever could imagine. We might soon learn how wide spread this goes and how many big names may be involved. Barry Bonds is just the tip of the ice burg.
MacNut said:
If I worked for their union I'd oppose the HGH bloodtests as well. From what I understand, there aren't any reliable tests for HGH, so accepting faulty ones for the sake of an angry public would be stupid.
MacNut, of course there are many, many players involved in this. Have you been paying attention? What started the testing was the fact that more than 7% of the players tested positive for steroids in 2003 (or was it 2004?) That means something in the order of AT LEAST 60 to 70 players tested positive when they knew the tests were coming. About the only player you can rule out as one of those who tested positive is Bonds. Why? because the feds have the results of the tests and if Barry had tested positive he would have been on trial today because of his BALCO testimony.
MacNut said:
MacNut, I don't understand why these names should "shake the game to its core"? These are just names Grimsley came up with when he was trying to save his own butt. They may or may not be names of players who have used PEDs, but his coerced testimony is hardly something with which to convict someone. It will be interesting to see if the names, which are supposed to be confidential, are leaked to the press. This would be the second set of leaks to happen in an investigation that Novitsky heads.
MacNut said:It was his first homerun, its not like he was breaking Babe Ruth's mark or anything.
I remember Cal Ripkin hi fiveing the whole stadium after he broke Lou Gerieg's mark, did anyone care then.
I think that breaking one of the game's most hallowed records, which included a pre-planned stoppage of play to celebrate it, is a little more worthy of high-fives with the fans than a rookie who hit his first home run.
Sayhey said:
Drysdale was once asked what a batter could do that would inspire a beaning. Big D listed things like: hitting a homer off him last time up, opposing pitcher beaned his teammate (obviously), was a rookie, dug his cleats in in the batter's box, or just looked at him funny. Or maybe just having a goofy name.
Seriously, what were the kid's parents thinking?
MacNut said:
I guess it hasn't occurred to you that baseball is ruled by two groups of greedy rich people. The owners were (and are) complicit in the steroid mess. They collected the ticket sales for the homer-boosted games and played it up as a new golden era for the game. You could even say that by quietly encouraging the first few stars to get juiced, they share more of the blame. After all, the players are trying to compete for their jobs, and most of them don't have long-term contracts, much less set for life.
Both sides were also way behind the curve when it came to outrage over steroids. The owners feigned ignorance in a completely unconvincing way. (Then again, has Bud Selig ever been convincing about anything?) The players tried to make it a privacy issue, not realizing that the fans wouldn't see it that way.
Sayhey said:
From Barry he could learn petulance and egotism.
Look, I don't want to turn this into another Barry Bonds thread, but the game is full of players who conduct themselves professionally every day, who are never seen to complain, pout, or talk about themselves. In fact, I'd say that a clear majority of the players, especially the older more mature players, are good role models for the younger guys.
Im not giving the owners a free pass either, they have blood on their hands as well, but the union should want to not have a suspicion of who is juicing or not. How many clean players like to be thought of as cheating in the fans eyes. I don't think many, they should step up and say we want a clean game without any doubt of doping.aloofman said:
If a Mid reliever was proven to be using HGH then don't you think some other names are involved somewhere if they know they can skirt the current batch of testing.Sayhey said:
IJ Reilly said:
On this one we will just have to disagree. Barry has the same contempt for the media that they have for him, but his play on the field and his respect for the game and the players who play it is first rate. I wouldn't recommend anyone take a course on press relations or a seminar on making friends from Barry, but I've nothing but respect for him as a player.
If he really had respect the game or more importantly for the Giants he would retire because his play has declined and if not for the record he would be having fans say that he is hurting the team if he can't run down a fly ball or hustle to 1st to beat the throw. As for his love of the game does this take into account the possible tainted records, because if the records are not legit how is that respecting the game.
MacNut said:
I think Grimsley is in trouble. He was caught in possession of a controlled substance and is likely to suffer the consequences. I also think there are many more players who have used steroids and HGH, but I'm not convinced that this bust will result in major damage to the game. There is a discipline procedure for players in the contract. It should be followed by MLB. Period.
Unless, of course, the names Grimsley cited are leaked to the press and we have another round of hysterical finger-pointing and calls for players to be strung up on the nearest lamppost. Players should, obviously, also be aware that there is at least one IRS agent who is on a crusade to out anyone who has ever been rumored to have used PEDs.
Sayhey said:
The media doesn't enter into it. Being in San Francisco, you can be forgiven for not realizing that few baseball fans in the rest of the country have much respect for him. A few weeks back I related the story of him ripping his arm protector off and hurling it towards the dugout on ball three of an intentional walk, during a game I attended. This kind of behavior does not earn a player the respect of the fans, or anyone else for that matter. It also does not make him a good role model for younger players.
MacNut said:
Barry is not the player he once was, but he is still better than many in the game today. As to hurting the Giants, the players, manager, and fans all still think of him as an incredible asset to the team. Now, if the Giants had a great young prospect that Barry was holding back, it might be a different story, at least in the minds of management. I'm sad to say we have no such player waiting in the wings. I also don't think Barry thinks any of his achievements are tainted. I will remind you once again - Bonds has NEVER tested positive for ANYTHING.
Lastly, MacNut, IJ, and anyone else who wants to discuss steroids, HGH, or the latest in the Grimsley case, perhaps we should do it in the other thread?
IJ Reilly said:
The media does enter into it because it is through the lens of the media that fans perceptions of ballplayers are largely shaped. In Barry's case that is a lens that tends to magnify any fault. Sorry to have to say it, but to the fans out there who buy into the swill that gets published and broadcast everyday - Barry Bonds is not the Anti-Christ. He is not "single-handedly destroying the game." He is a flawed human being who may or may not be one of many ballplayers who used steroids. So what?
IJ, I remember your story about the arm protector and I wrote to you then about how I was not impressed by the story as an example of bad behavior. I will say again, Bonds gets walked more often than many teams and he finds it frustrating. Talking your arm protector off one pitch early and throwing it towards the dugout is hardly a big deal. Was he fined for throwing equipment? Was he thrown out of a game for arguing calls? Come to think of it, when was the last time Bonds argued a call or got thrown out of a game? It's been so long ago I can't recall an instance. So, what we have here is an example of a player who plays to a level none of his peers have attained being criticized not for behavior that is unsportsmanlike, but rather because you didn't like it. IJ, I could write volumes on Dodgers whose behavior and statements I didn't like, but it doesn't make them into bad ballplayers or horrible human beings.
Sayhey said:
I don't care who you call on bad behavior, because I'm a baseball fan first and a Dodger fan second. The Dodgers dumped one of the worst actors in recent baseball history last winter, and good riddance to him. Anyway, I don't think your analysis of how we decide who to like and not like in the game allows anyone much credit for intelligence. I also don't wait for the umpires or the Commissioner's Office to tell me when a ballplayer is acting like a spoiled child. I think I've been following the game long enough to form my own opinion.
Sayhey said:
There was a recent article on ESPN.com in which a Giants fan tries to explain why they can't look at Bonds the way other fans do.
Great read. Thanks for sharing that. Having grown up in a baseball city (St. Louis) and having cut my teeth on bleacher seats in Sportsman's Park and later, most anytime I could get in to Busch Stadium as a teen, this fan's allegiance and style resonate with me. I applaud his zeal. It almost convinces me to repent of my smoldering, seething bristling ire toward this star. Almost. I was also willing to absolve Mac. When in town, I even caught a quick box seat during the strike year....because I do love the game. <snif> Maybe there's hope for the hard hearted, yet.aloofman said:
Sayhey said:
The game is changing, and for the better I think. This so called "codebook" or whatever you want to call it, is changing.