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Baseball Season 2006
- Thread starter MacNut
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xsedrinam said:
Thanks, but I'm not sure what I'm meant to keep the faith in at this point. ESPN is even worse than FOX.
MacNut said:So it was "a clump of dirt" on his hand.
Sure, and the ball wasn't do some strange stuff like the players thought it was. I'm listening to ESPN Radio right now and they're trying to figure out why the hell someone didn't complain more about what was on his hand.
Left side is from Game 3 of the ALCS, right side is from last night (Game 2 of WS). You can see a brown smudge on his hand in both games. Makes me wonder...
Update: ESPN is saying that when they look at later footage from the game, you can still see a stain on his hand where the mark was. And then they also showed footage of Rogers during the first inning blowing on his hand and ever-so-slightly tapping his fingers on the smudge. Definitely something fishy going on here.
While I'd hate to think that Rogers was cheating, it does seem odd that there was something there, and that everyone was so evasive about it.
Of course, I'm just pissed the Cardinals couldn't convert the bases-loaded 2-out 9th inning into at least a couple more runs. Game 7 of the NLCS got me too pumped up on Molina, I guess.
Of course, I'm just pissed the Cardinals couldn't convert the bases-loaded 2-out 9th inning into at least a couple more runs. Game 7 of the NLCS got me too pumped up on Molina, I guess.
I'm listening to KFNS in St. Louis right now, and they have talked for the last 2+ hours SOLELY on the topic of Kenny Rogers hand. The talking heads are piiiiiiiiissed.
I listen to this station frequently, but I often get tired of the whining and moaning that goes on on this radio station. Shouldn't at least a bit of time be taken this morning to say something to the effect of, "The Cardinals did what they had to do in Detroit, and Reyes was awesome. Now we have the next three games at home, with Carpenter and Suppan at home where they are fantastic."
It's virtually ALWAYS negative talk coming from this station. If the ESPN affiliate had better reception, I'd be listening to that more often.
I listen to this station frequently, but I often get tired of the whining and moaning that goes on on this radio station. Shouldn't at least a bit of time be taken this morning to say something to the effect of, "The Cardinals did what they had to do in Detroit, and Reyes was awesome. Now we have the next three games at home, with Carpenter and Suppan at home where they are fantastic."
It's virtually ALWAYS negative talk coming from this station. If the ESPN affiliate had better reception, I'd be listening to that more often.
Bibulous said:
What amuses me about Eckstein's throwing is that he seems to use every single muscle in his body to get it to first, almost hurtling himself to the ground. He once won an SI player poll as the the player who gets the most from his talent level. And every team likes having a short, hustling, white guy, for some reason.
xsedrinam said:
I watch the game on my DVR and fast-forward between pitches. I hear very little play by play and almost no commentary at all. I love technology.
aloofman said:I watch the game on my DVR and fast-forward between pitches. I hear very little play by play and almost no commentary at all. I love technology.
Let me know when they come up with Joe Buck Canceling technology.
Wow, that's amazing. He must have picked up that same "clump of dirt" in two different ball games and in the same spot on his same throwing hand.Warbrain said:
Left side is from Game 3 of the ALCS, right side is from last night (Game 2 of WS). You can see a brown smudge on his hand in both games. Makes me wonder...
Update: ESPN is saying that when they look at later footage from the game, you can still see a stain on his hand where the mark was. And then they also showed footage of Rogers during the first inning blowing on his hand and ever-so-slightly tapping his fingers on the smudge. Definitely something fishy going on here.
Whoops. An obvious breakdown in metaphor. When it comes to FOX or ESPN, gnostic away (this would include muting and fast forward).IJReilly said:
emw said:
OK, how about this bordering-on-naive explanation: what if it really is rosin and dirt, and a dirt splotch ends up on the base of his thumb when he reaches down to pick up the rosin bag? That would explain why it's seen in multiple games over a long period. And the umps DID say it was only dirt.
Maybe Fox is just trying to liven up the broadcast.
the gambler
I would love to see The Gambler get his comeuppance, for most of what we know of the man - the assaulting of the cameraman (as well as watching him scream at his teammates while on the mound) , he seems like kind of a jerk. Like one of those ultra-competitive kind of jerks you might like to have on your team, and despise playing against. And who knows if he was, indeed, cheating?
All I know is, he was also pullilng 90+ mph fastballs out of his ass during the playoffs - something that a little pine tar couldn't explain.
I would love to see The Gambler get his comeuppance, for most of what we know of the man - the assaulting of the cameraman (as well as watching him scream at his teammates while on the mound) , he seems like kind of a jerk. Like one of those ultra-competitive kind of jerks you might like to have on your team, and despise playing against. And who knows if he was, indeed, cheating?
All I know is, he was also pullilng 90+ mph fastballs out of his ass during the playoffs - something that a little pine tar couldn't explain.
look at that picture above....does it look like dirt or rosin.
actually yes it could. Pine tar gives a better grip on the ball. Explain how a guy that once had a 9 era in the post season has now gone 23 scoreless innings.c23roo said:
I'm taking the "wait and see" what happens, for now. It could be a combo of all of the above, but a S.I. writer raises some statistical comparisons with the comforts of home when Rogers pitches and the fact that Leyland has had him on the rotation to keep him starting at home rather than away. Granted, Nate Silver shows why he's not an investigative reporter, but he at least acknowledges some significance in the comparative stats at home (where he's suspected of scuffing) vs. away.aloofman said:
"DETROIT -- The conspiracy theory is as follows. Kenny Rogers is scuffing his pitches. But he only bothers to do so when he pitches at Comerica Park. That's why Jim Leyland has engineered his rotation throughout the postseason to ensure that Rogers pitches at home."
Still, if the issue is not allowed to go away without some kind of resolution, what, if anything, would be the outcome if he were guilty as suspected? The stark reality that STL couldn't hit him for 7 after he washed whatever it was, off, still presents the Cards with a greater problem.
Agreed, assuming they don't win the next 3 in St Louis, of course.xsedrinam said:
The reality of it is, I think pitchers do this stuff all the time. Rogers picked a bad method perhaps, but who's to say they can't just put gel in their hair, run their hands through it, and suddenly have a better grip. How many times do you see pitchers do that?
increased velocity with pine tar?
I could definitely see how pine tar might alter the movement of pitches (either by allowing the pitcher to impart a tighter spin on a breaking ball, or by simply being on the ball itself, changing the airflow around the ball) - I just don't see how a better grip might give you a few more mph on a fastball.
Though I guess a better grip might allow you to throw harder... I'll have to think about that one.
PS LOVE my DVR!!! Finally I don't have to listen to that imbecile McCarver and his marshmallow fluff sandwich on white bread with the crusts cut off sidekick Joe Buck. But ask me how I really feel!
I could definitely see how pine tar might alter the movement of pitches (either by allowing the pitcher to impart a tighter spin on a breaking ball, or by simply being on the ball itself, changing the airflow around the ball) - I just don't see how a better grip might give you a few more mph on a fastball.
Though I guess a better grip might allow you to throw harder... I'll have to think about that one.
PS LOVE my DVR!!! Finally I don't have to listen to that imbecile McCarver and his marshmallow fluff sandwich on white bread with the crusts cut off sidekick Joe Buck. But ask me how I really feel!
I know everyone loves a good conspiracy, especially the fans of the team that got beat, but my feeling is that we have to trust the umps on this one. These aren't exactly rookie umpires; they know what pine tar is, and they know what dirt is. They were the ones there, they made the call that it was dirt. I don't think any of us, sitting at home, knows more about it than they do.
Which leaves us with the possibility of this being a cover-up. Personally, I don't buy that either. I don't think the umps would let a guy cheat in the world series and just pretend he was playing legit.
Also, it was only one inning. If that's the reason he's been so unhittable, why couldn't anyone lay a bat on his stuff the next 7 innings? he gave up 1 hit and one walk in the 1st - it was his worst inning.
I'm a Red Sox fan. In 2004, when the postseason started, my friends and I said that if Derek Lowe had to come in to a game, you'd know we'd already lost. That's how bad he was. But then, he was the winning pitcher in all 3 clinching games and was absolutely lights out. Sometimes guys just turn it on. It happens. Get over it. There are at least 3 more games to play.
Which leaves us with the possibility of this being a cover-up. Personally, I don't buy that either. I don't think the umps would let a guy cheat in the world series and just pretend he was playing legit.
Also, it was only one inning. If that's the reason he's been so unhittable, why couldn't anyone lay a bat on his stuff the next 7 innings? he gave up 1 hit and one walk in the 1st - it was his worst inning.
I'm a Red Sox fan. In 2004, when the postseason started, my friends and I said that if Derek Lowe had to come in to a game, you'd know we'd already lost. That's how bad he was. But then, he was the winning pitcher in all 3 clinching games and was absolutely lights out. Sometimes guys just turn it on. It happens. Get over it. There are at least 3 more games to play.
QCassidy352 said:
The whole problem at this point, however, isn't that he cheated for one inning, but that he's has done in it in all of his appearances this postseason. There's evidence that he has had pine tar on his palm every game this postseason, so why didn't someone say something earlier?
espn.com
ST. LOUIS -- Television ratings for the World Series hit a record low for the opener, then rebounded for Game 2. The St. Louis Cardinals' 7-2 victory over the Detroit Tigers on Saturday night received an 8.0 fast national rating and 15 share, Fox said Monday, down 16 percent from the previous record low for an opener, a 9.5 for last year's 5-3 Chicago White Sox win over the Houston Astros. Detroit's 3-1 victory in Game 2 on Sunday night got an 11.5/18, up 4 percent from the 11.1 rating for Chicago's 7-6 win in the second game last year. Overall, that left the first two games averaging a record-low 9.8, down 5 percent from the previous bottom, a 10.3 for the first two games last year. Fox's 6.5 average rating for the league championship series was down 4 percent from last year's 6.8. On each of the first two nights of the World Series, Fox won prime time. The Game 1 rating was the highest for Saturday night on any network since the NCAA Tournament men's basketball semifinals on April 1 on CBS. Game 2 was the highest-rated Sunday night on Fox since the NFC Championship on Jan. 22. Fox finished second in prime time last week for the first time this season, 0.1 behind ABC.
The national rating is the percentage of U.S. television households tuned to a program, and each point represents 1,114,000 homes. The share is the percentage of households watching a broadcast among those homes with televisions in use at the time. Game 1 got a 41.0 rating in St. Louis and a 32.5 in Detroit, while Game 2 received a 47.5 rating in St. Louis and a 42.9 in Detroit. Because of perennially low ratings for all Saturday night programming, baseball and Fox are switching the start of the World Series to Tuesday beginning next year.
ST. LOUIS -- Television ratings for the World Series hit a record low for the opener, then rebounded for Game 2. The St. Louis Cardinals' 7-2 victory over the Detroit Tigers on Saturday night received an 8.0 fast national rating and 15 share, Fox said Monday, down 16 percent from the previous record low for an opener, a 9.5 for last year's 5-3 Chicago White Sox win over the Houston Astros. Detroit's 3-1 victory in Game 2 on Sunday night got an 11.5/18, up 4 percent from the 11.1 rating for Chicago's 7-6 win in the second game last year. Overall, that left the first two games averaging a record-low 9.8, down 5 percent from the previous bottom, a 10.3 for the first two games last year. Fox's 6.5 average rating for the league championship series was down 4 percent from last year's 6.8. On each of the first two nights of the World Series, Fox won prime time. The Game 1 rating was the highest for Saturday night on any network since the NCAA Tournament men's basketball semifinals on April 1 on CBS. Game 2 was the highest-rated Sunday night on Fox since the NFC Championship on Jan. 22. Fox finished second in prime time last week for the first time this season, 0.1 behind ABC.
The national rating is the percentage of U.S. television households tuned to a program, and each point represents 1,114,000 homes. The share is the percentage of households watching a broadcast among those homes with televisions in use at the time. Game 1 got a 41.0 rating in St. Louis and a 32.5 in Detroit, while Game 2 received a 47.5 rating in St. Louis and a 42.9 in Detroit. Because of perennially low ratings for all Saturday night programming, baseball and Fox are switching the start of the World Series to Tuesday beginning next year.
So, "it was pine tar". Now what?
Latest S.I. scoop on the deal. Now what, and so what? "Everybody uses suntan lotion, shaving cream...or pine tar" nowadays. So that makes it all moot?
Latest S.I. scoop on the deal. Now what, and so what? "Everybody uses suntan lotion, shaving cream...or pine tar" nowadays. So that makes it all moot?
I don't know what it was on his hand.
I do know that he continued to pitch well for 7 more innings after he washed his hand off.
I don't think its cheating.
To me cheating is like speeding, it doesn't count until you get caught. He didn't get caught during the game by anyone in the game, its a product of TV and media now because obviously it was gone by the time he re-entered the game. A manager can call to get the opposing pitcher checked, I mean we usually see it a few times a season.
Its not like this is a new rule that was enacted at the beginning of the year. In 2004 while playing for the Cardinals Julian Tavarez for having pine tar on his cap. He got suspended for 10 games. So they have first hand experience of the situation, and I can't imagine the idea of taking out the Tigers best pitcher from the rotation did not appeal to the Cardinals, its a marked advantage if you can't take them all in STL.
So I think that if LaRussa had gotten the information quick enough he would have been out there ... but instead he went to complain about it later I believe and the hands had been washed.
Another thing I didn't like. I realize the rule provided for Rolen to score a run when Inge "interferred" but after watching that play I really think that Rolen had control to avoid him and hit him to guarantee the run. Can I ever prove this no ... he would have scored if he would have just run a tighter route. I don't think Inge had any bad intention considering that he was a reasonable distance away from the line ... but thats just my opinion on how the rule should change in the future.
I do know that he continued to pitch well for 7 more innings after he washed his hand off.
I don't think its cheating.
To me cheating is like speeding, it doesn't count until you get caught. He didn't get caught during the game by anyone in the game, its a product of TV and media now because obviously it was gone by the time he re-entered the game. A manager can call to get the opposing pitcher checked, I mean we usually see it a few times a season.
Its not like this is a new rule that was enacted at the beginning of the year. In 2004 while playing for the Cardinals Julian Tavarez for having pine tar on his cap. He got suspended for 10 games. So they have first hand experience of the situation, and I can't imagine the idea of taking out the Tigers best pitcher from the rotation did not appeal to the Cardinals, its a marked advantage if you can't take them all in STL.
So I think that if LaRussa had gotten the information quick enough he would have been out there ... but instead he went to complain about it later I believe and the hands had been washed.
Another thing I didn't like. I realize the rule provided for Rolen to score a run when Inge "interferred" but after watching that play I really think that Rolen had control to avoid him and hit him to guarantee the run. Can I ever prove this no ... he would have scored if he would have just run a tighter route. I don't think Inge had any bad intention considering that he was a reasonable distance away from the line ... but thats just my opinion on how the rule should change in the future.
Kwyjibo said:
I wish La Russa raised a bigger stink about it than he did. He could've gotten into the Tiger's heads. He could've ruined their night and had a 2-0 lead on the series, but now they don't.
