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… slowly and deliberately making Mail so buggy and unreliable that we'll be glad rather than upset when they discontinue it.

Like iTunes - we'll be begging Apple to stop bundling it, so a serious developer has a chance of building something that cares/works.

Mail no longer 'sends windows friendly attachments' - my outlook friends squeal like stuck pigs when I send them files. I don't blame Apple for not supporting brain-dead outlook, but seriously? 90% of the people I'm likely to send an email have to run it!

Like not supporting gmail, even though I'm in the middle of closing all my gmail accounts - there's an awful lot of gmail accounts out there.

There's an awful lot of software atrophy at Apple these days. Dropping older Pages files should be the signal -- you just can't trust Apple applications to be there in the future.

I just get new users to install Open Office. It's more likely to be around than Pages and Numbers. I love the features of Pages and Numbers, but you can't do anything more critical than a for-sale sign, because you don't know if you'll be able to open the file in 4 years.
 
Like iTunes - we'll be begging Apple to stop bundling it, so a serious developer has a chance of building something that cares/works.

Mail no longer 'sends windows friendly attachments' - my outlook friends squeal like stuck pigs when I send them files. I don't blame Apple for not supporting brain-dead outlook, but seriously? 90% of the people I'm likely to send an email have to run it!

Like not supporting gmail, even though I'm in the middle of closing all my gmail accounts - there's an awful lot of gmail accounts out there.

There's an awful lot of software atrophy at Apple these days. Dropping older Pages files should be the signal -- you just can't trust Apple applications to be there in the future.

I just get new users to install Open Office. It's more likely to be around than Pages and Numbers. I love the features of Pages and Numbers, but you can't do anything more critical than a for-sale sign, because you don't know if you'll be able to open the file in 4 years.
I hear you on pages and OO. But is thunderbird for mac still a viable thing? Anyone got issues trying to open old emails? :(
 
My gmail works rather well in Mac Mail at the moment - the major problems seem to have been solved...
 
I hear you on pages and OO. But is thunderbird for mac still a viable thing? Anyone got issues trying to open old emails? :(
Good point!!

We should all consider emails as temporary. If you want to permanently save or store an email, you should convert it to a PDF file and save it to a location (local folder, external disk) that will be backed up.

And this brings up a bigger point. Just as you should not rely on temporary file formats, you should not rely on temporary operating systems, temporary/proprietary storage media or proprietary applications.

Think about it. If you want to permanently store copies of your tax return in digital format, store them as PDF files, not as ".tax" or ".tax2013" files, which are proprietary TurboTax file formats. Those proprietary formats are useful for importing tax data into next year's tax return software, but not useful for permanent storage.

If you have documents stored on floppy disks, zip disks, tapes or any older media, these should be moved to current media that can be backed up. That's AFTER converting to file formats that are universal or otherwise likely to survive in the rapidly-changing digital world. Anyone want to tackle importing an old Pong game for the Apple ][ and stored on a cassette tape?

One more thing - I'm not sure how long CDs and DVDs will survive. Many computers are sold now without CD or DVD drives, so relying on CD or DVD storage for archival purposes may be a mistake.
 
We should all consider emails as temporary.

I don't understand your logic, email is a way more open and universal format than PDF in terms of servers, documents (ie emails), and clients.

You have more chance of the PDF format imploding than email IMHO.

CD/DVD? Those have long (like years), been shown to degrade and are not long-term touchless archive storage media.

To be sure of retrieval though, you would have to maintain document, storage, OS and access application, as long as you make sure you always have those in a supported stack you will be good to go, whether they are proprietary or open.

TBH though in reality providing I can go back 10yrs (with the exception of photographs), I'm happy.
 
I don't understand your logic, email is a way more open and universal format than PDF in terms of servers, documents (ie emails), and clients.

You have more chance of the PDF format imploding than email IMHO.

CD/DVD? Those have long (like years), been shown to degrade and are not long-term touchless archive storage media.

To be sure of retrieval though, you would have to maintain document, storage, OS and access application, as long as you make sure you always have those in a supported stack you will be good to go, whether they are proprietary or open.

TBH though in reality providing I can go back 10yrs (with the exception of photographs), I'm happy.
I think that most people would regard PDF files as a pretty much universal format, and likely to survive for a long time as a file format.

I agree that in some respects, some email formats will probably survive also since they are in widespread business use. On a personal level, however there can be issues. One is that the files are "database"-type files rather than simple, individual files, and may be more easily corrupted. After having problems with a desktop computer, I switched to a new Mac. I saved old email files by exporting to ".mbox" format. This appeared to work at first, but when I tried to import these mbox files later, a few were lost, maybe due to file corruption. All of my text files, picture files and PDF files were fine; only some of the mbox files were lost.

In addition, there can be other issues, not associated with the email format itself, but with the way we commonly use emails. For example, email accounts on my devices are set up as IMAP accounts. The inboxes on my main computer, mobile devices (iPad, iPhone) are synced with the email server. Whenever an email is deleted on any device, it is deleted on the server as well. To save an email, it should be moved to a locally-stored folder (either another "mailbox" or perhaps a PDF file). I would personally be more comfortable storing/backing up and archiving individual text or PDF files than mbox database files for future access.

That's not to say that emails cannot be successfully archived in an email file format, just saying that it can be easier (on a local, personal level) to store and automatically back up "critical" files as PDFs that can be accessed in future years on whatever device we might be using.

I'm not sure that I understood your disagreement with my comments on CD/DVD format. It appears that we agree on this. In addition to the physical degradation issue, we may not have easy access to CD or DVD drives far into the future, at least in terms of easily connecting them to whatever computers or mobile devices we will be using.
 
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[[ You have more chance of the PDF format imploding than email IMHO. ]]

I disagree, completely.

PDF as a "format" is probably going to survive a LONG time -- certainly as long as "plain text", rtf, and a few others.

PDF will still be here when the current Mac OS X is fading off in the historical distance, as the original "Classic" Mac OS (running on 68xxx CPUs) is today.

Just wondering, simonsi -- what year did you start using Macs?
If you had started when I did -- back in 1987 -- you might be in a pickle today if you still relied on your original email applications.

In my own example, very early on I used the GEnie email system (on an Apple //c) for email -- dialing in on a phone line with a 300bps modem. I was careful enough, even back then, to save some important emails in "plain text" format back in '87, and I still have those emails in readable form on -this- Mac Mini -today-, because I saved them AS TEXT.

Later on, I moved along with the times and ended up on the original version of America Online for a while (this was before I had local internet access). Again, I saved some AOL emails into "text format" and have those today. How would one run the original AOL application (68xxx-based) on a current Mac? (Aside: I suppose one could use something like SheepShaver, but then... would you still have the AOL app -and- the data files along with it, twenty years later?)

When I got internet access around 1995, I used Netscape Navigator for email (again running on a 68xxx-based Mac). Again, when it was time to move on beyond Navigator, I archived those emails into text files, and can still access them today.

For archival purposes, plain old text is probably the best, but pdf comes in a close second. I sense that even if pdf is replaced at some point in the future by some new "universal" format, it will still remain readable and at least "convertible" into that newer format.

simonsi also wrote above:
[[ CD/DVD? Those have long (like years), been shown to degrade and are not long-term touchless archive storage media.]]

Not if one uses the relatively new "M-DISC" DVD blanks. These don't use traditional "dyes" (which are subject to fading and data loss, similar to the way an old color photograph fades with time), but use some concoction of "mineral based" formula in which to embed the ones and zeros. They can be read by ANY DVD/Bluray player, BUT, they require a special DVD or BluRay burner for writing. And they're now available in 25gb BluRay capacity as well.
 
Email is more defined by its transmission format, there are simply too many clients and servers now for that to fundamentally change. Of course certain clients will have chosen to store the data in different formats but that isn't what I was talking about.

PDF has only been truly open since 2008 so still a fledgling, but it is a storage format so always at risk IMHO.

CD/DVD/BR - nope, not going to trust any of those formats ever. (minidisk anyone?). Best thing about DVD writers in MBPs is you can take it out and fit additional SSD/HDDs.

OS-formatted HDD with the option to move that data to any new storage device that comes along, there will always be crossover machines with both/all connectivity (eg USB and whatever is the new bus), to enable that migration AND it periodically confirms the data is still good, no point going back to a supposedly-secure BR disk in 10yrs to suddenly find its degraded.
 
I am using gmail and one day stopped to understand advantage of desktop clients over web interface provided by google.

Did I miss something ?
 
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