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Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, keep lying. It's not that simple as flipping a switch. I also pay for an Apple Developer account, I've developed a few little apps (for macs only) before and I know it is not THAT simple.

I don't care about benchmarks. All I care about is: Can it run my apps or games? NO, IT CANNOT. I've been saying that since the start but you simply don't listen to that and keep throwing stupid lies and benchmarks that mean nothing to me.
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You mean both on the same computer or two different models? These Macs are already incredibly expensive, can you imagine how expensive it would be (both on same) ? No way. It's one or another, not both.

If you ever write any code you will immediately notice your code is CPU independent.

Porting your current Mac app to a different CPU is just a checkbox.

C++ on x86 is the same C++ on ARM. Swift/Objective-C also stays the same for different CPUs.

Benchmarks shows performance. Performance shows it can or can not run your apps or games. If it runs faster than Intel do you think people will ignore it and never port their game to it?

Adobe already porting their app to iPad. Those app shares same code and even same bugs with their desktop counterparts. They are lacking feature just because they haven't figure out how to create mobile touch UI to utilize them.

They already claimed they will port CC to Windows ARM.
 


show the error you will got when linking x86_64 iOS binary to a Mac Catalyst binrary.

And

how xcframework seperate iOS library and Mac Catalyst library.
 
If you ever write any code you will immediately notice your code is CPU independent.

Porting your current Mac app to a different CPU is just a checkbox.

C++ on x86 is the same C++ on ARM. Swift/Objective-C also stays the same for different CPUs.

Benchmarks shows performance. Performance shows it can or can not run your apps or games. If it runs faster than Intel do you think people will ignore it and never port their game to it?

Adobe already porting their app to iPad. Those app shares same code and even same bugs with their desktop counterparts. They are lacking feature just because they haven't figure out how to create mobile touch UI to utilize them.

They already claimed they will port CC to Windows ARM.

"noice!" but I will not use their app on iPad because it does not work the same way their desktop version does for me. I'd rather use Pixelmator or Vectornator, since my workflow was faster with them than Adobe half baked solution for iPad.

I'm not saying you cannot do web design on iPad, you can. But you cannot run high quality PC games, that demand powerful GPUs like F1 2019 and you cannot deploy a full local web server on it (the iPad, that is) for local development (with PHP, Apache, MySQL included). You can't even run an emulator properly to run x86 OSes. I've just tried to run Debian 10 on it and it was freaking slow, so slow that I have deleted all of it.
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If this means a timely upgrade for Mac, I’m all for it. They survived CPU transitions in the past. They’ll be fine.

Rosetta came from its grave and said Hello to you. Do you remember how bad it was? No? Think again.
 
Who says this has to be an EITHER x86 OR ARM shift?

it’s entirely possible and I posit likely that the ARM Mac will have both an x86 and ARM based CPU with more and more software shifting the ARM processor over time.

I do not think so.

ARM Mac will make Intel Mac obsolete by their performance.

Just like how Core 2 totally smashed Power G5.

Currently Amazon Graviton 2 is already faster than Mac Pro.
 
  • Disagree
Reactions: chikorita157
I’m not well versed on ARM at all, but it seems like a lot of people are saying that this transition is not gonna happen and that a lot of things are impossible.

Why don’t people think that Apple has already figured things out? This has probably been in the works for years. Do people really think that Apple doesn’t have their shxt together? Lol.

There's a huge class of application and professional tools that will not survive a hypothetical transition from x86 to ARM. That is indisputably correct, and the people in this thread who are worried about having to switch platforms in order to keep using the tools and applications they are using in macOS today have legitimate concerns.

Gaming is not one of those things. The only reason you can't run iRacing on ARM is because iRacing is a boutique game written by a small software shop that doesn't even support macOS on x86 any more. They used to, but they dropped support because the market was too small to justify the expense. However -- that's not a fundamental architectural limitation of ARM. It's just a marketplace reality. ARM -- the architecture -- is just as capable of supporting graphics and CPU performance to compete with x86. @Bruno Castelló is completely off in the weeds when he says that ARM is incapable of the performance needed to run his favorite games. It can't because those games don't exist for ARM. They could. But they don't. They probably never will, either, so he's got an echo of factual basis in his protest, but he is correct for very wrong reasons. iRacing will never run on macOS ARM because iRacing doesn't even run on current macOS X86.

In a world where macOS is on ARM there's no technical barrier that prevent high-end games being ported to the platform. It's tough to imagine the market leading to that future though especially since the market has already shown us that there's no money to be made porting games to macOS on x86 either.

So that brings us back to people who are worried because Boot Camp, VMware, Parallels, Docker, and other virtualization tools are impossible to port to ARM. That's totally true. And if @Bruno Castelló is using Boot Camp to run Windows games on his current Mac, then he's in that boat too. Unless the good folks at iRacing port their game to macOS again. Seems unlikely.
 
Have you seen how Apple has been recently? Plagued with FaceTime bugs and other similar problems in their software? Have you seen how they dealt with the "fantastic" butterfly keyboard? They can be that stupid.
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Just stop here. STOP. Project Cars is ridiculous. Physics are not on point. Tyre model is not on point either. PC is not a simulator and neither a racing game for PROs.

ARM is not for professional gamers, period. They are for those who like to play Candy Crush on their smartphones.



Nice, but it is slow as hell. I know, I've tried it. Even my old 286 in 80's was faster than this s**t.

Next.

I mean yeah they have made some silly mistakes and have had some odd oversights, but so does every company. Apple does a LOT of things right. Not sure how this ARM thing is gonna go, but I would like to think the transition won’t be as disastrous as people think.

Not saying that Apple doesn’t deserve criticism. They do, but I can forgive certain things since they’re doing well overall.
 
ARM can't game, period. It cannot run F1 2019, Flight Simulator X, and a myriad of high quality PC games that are GPU intensive. Heck, ARM can't even run iRacing with enough FPS for pro gamers. I said games for PRO, not for casual gamers like Nintendo noobs or Candy Crush addicted people.

All those competitive pro gamers playing Super Smash Bros. Ultimate for switch says otherwise.
 
I mean yeah they have made some silly mistakes and have had some odd oversights, but so does every company. Apple does a LOT of things right. Not sure how this ARM thing is gonna go, but I would like to think the transition won’t be as disastrous as people think.

Not saying that Apple doesn’t deserve criticism. They do, but I can forgive certain things since they’re doing well overall.

Their recent mistakes and after Catalina dropped 32 bit support, even my dad is ready to leave that ship to return to Windows. One of his favorite apps TextWrangler, is only 32 bit and will not be upgraded. He does not want to use their successor (BBEdit) and is freaking furious at how Apple keeps changing the things in the OS all the time. Plus, his camera surveillance apps for our home does not work on mac either, so he is ready to leave the ship. I'll be ready too, if Macs go only ARM based.
 
"noice!" but I will not use their app on iPad because it does not work the same way their desktop version does for me. I'd rather use Pixelmator or Vectornator, since my workflow was faster with then than Adobe half baked solution for iPad.

I'm not saying you cannot do web design on iPad, you can. But you cannot run high quality PC games, that demand powerful GPUs like F1 2019 and you cannot deploy a full local web server on it (the iPad, that is) for local development (with PHP, Apache, MySQL included). You can't even run an emulator properly to run x86 OSes. I've just tried to run Debian 10 on it and it was freaking slow, so slow that I have deleted all of it.
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Rosetta came from its grave and said Hello to you. Do you remember how bad it was? No? Think again.

Why emulating x86?
Debian support ARM natively.

You do not need x86. The only thing you need from CPU is performance.

We came a long way of compiler development and now it's really easy to run your app on different CPU architectures.

iPad has it's limitations because of iOS not because it runs ARM. Windows/Debian allows you to run a server on ARM version without any problem.


BTW F1 2019 isn't a demanding game and it runs on Nintendo Switch already. Project Car 2 need much more performance and let alone Crysis.
We are talking hardware not content and especially not platform exclusives.

My PS4 runs Uncharted 4 and your computer can not but I can never say your computer is not for gamer just for that.
My switch runs Game Of The Year 2017 Zelda and you claim it's not for gamer.

Obviously there's something wrong in your words.
 
I need x86 to do my job. This could eventually end my use of OS X, at least for work, which would really suck. I've been using OS X since literally day one in March 2001.
You have a time machine? I bought the first gen MacBook Pro with Intel CPUs 2 jobs ago, and that was in 2006. Even did the heat paste replacement to try to gain a bit more efficient cooling.

 
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There's a huge class of application and professional tools that will not survive a hypothetical transition from x86 to ARM. That is indisputably correct, and the people in this thread who are worried about having to switch platforms in order to keep using the tools and applications they are using in macOS today have legitimate concerns.

Gaming is not one of those things. The only reason you can't run iRacing on ARM is because iRacing is a boutique game written by a small software shop that doesn't even support macOS on x86 any more. They used to, but they dropped support because the market was too small to justify the expense. However -- that's not a fundamental architectural limitation of ARM. It's just a marketplace reality. ARM -- the architecture -- is just as capable of supporting graphics and CPU performance to compete with x86. @Bruno Castelló is completely off in the weeds when he says that ARM is incapable of the performance needed to run his favorite games. It can't because those games don't exist for ARM. They could. But they don't. They probably never will, either, so he's got an echo of factual basis in his protest, but he is correct for very wrong reasons. iRacing will never run on macOS ARM because iRacing doesn't even run on current macOS X86.

In a world where macOS is on ARM there's no technical barrier that prevent high-end games being ported to the platform. It's tough to imagine the market leading to that future though especially since the market has already shown us that there's no money to be made porting games to macOS on x86 either.

So that brings us back to people who are worried because Boot Camp, VMware, Parallels, Docker, and other virtualization tools are impossible to port to ARM. That's totally true. And if @Bruno Castelló is using Boot Camp to run Windows games on his current Mac, then he's in that boat too. Unless the good folks at iRacing port their game to macOS again. Seems unlikely.

Porting a software to a different OS is really hard.
Much harder then porting the same software to same OS with a different CPU architecture.

I guess it will be much more possible for those game to port to Windows ARM instead of macOS.
 
Why emulating x86?
Debian support ARM natively.

You do not need x86. The only thing you need from CPU is performance.

We came a long way of compiler development and now it's really easy to run your app on different CPU architectures.

iPad has it's limitations because of iOS not because it runs ARM. Windows/Debian allows you to run a server on ARM version without any problem.


BTW F1 2019 isn't a demanding game and it runs on Nintendo Switch already. Project Car 2 need much more performance and let alone Crysis.
We are talking hardware not content and especially not platform exclusives.

My PS4 runs Uncharted 4 and your computer can not but I can never say your computer is not for gamer just for that.
My switch runs Game Of The Year 2017 Zelda and you claim it's not for gamer.

Obviously there's something wrong in your words.

Here we go again.

You cannot install Debian on iPad natively. End period. And this is not my wish. I want to run a local web development server on my iPad to work on the go and I cannot do that. If I had a x86 tablet running macOS, I could do that.

F1 2019 IS A DEMANDING GAME, YES. Look at how the graphics are, you can even see the wind effects. You need the high quality, expensive Nvidia or AMD GPUs to have Ultra High graphics. ARM can't do that.

Project Cars is not a racing game, is a joke of a game. Physics are wrong on it. Graphics in wet conditions are wrong also, the way the particles drops on your visor are also on the wrong side. Crysis?

Zelda? This is not a eSports professional game either. Candy crush fans must be happy.

Switch and PS4 are not computers, we are talking about computers not video games. Bye.
 
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Reactions: chikorita157
Super Smash Bros is a pro game? ROFLMAO. I am speaking about simulators, not casual games for noobs. rFactor 2, iRacing, Automobilista. CS:Go and its similar games are also in this area.

Smash is a pro game. There's EVO event for it and people are crazy about it.

In the opposite iRacing is not a game.
It's a simulator and does not even runs on a Mac today.

And I failed to recognize CS:GO as a simulator.
I like CS:GO and Valve already port the source 2 engine to iOS in the form of Dota Auto Chess Underlords.

It's super easy for them to port CS:GO to a ARM Mac.
 
Rosetta came from its grave and said Hello to you. Do you remember how bad it was? No? Think again.
I don’t remember because there was no need for it. I moved to Mac in late 2008. The transition was over. Everything was great and a lot of people migrated to Mac. And it will happen again. Some will freak out but average people will not feel any bumps. Besides, Apple is in the best shape right now. They can afford a lot more knock back compared to the past. Just like they survived a lot of questionable changes ex. headphone jack, notched iPhone or the death of Steve Jobs.
 
Smash is a pro game. There's EVO event for it and people are crazy about it.

In the opposite iRacing is not a game.
It's a simulator and does not even runs on a Mac today.

And I failed to recognize CS:GO as a simulator.
I like CS:GO and Valve already port the source 2 engine to iOS in the form of Dota Auto Chess Underlords.

It's super easy for them to port CS:GO to a ARM Mac.

Smash is not a pro game, is a joke.

I called iRacing a simulator, not a game. It can run on mac today, yes. You just need to throw a BootCamp partition and you're ready to go. You can't do that with an ARM based Mac.

I called CS:Go a pro game, not a simulator. There are pro tournament games for that. and their iOS version are not good enough for it. I don't even play CS:Go anymore, anyway.
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I don’t remember because there was no need for it. I moved to Mac in late 2008. The transition was over. Everything was great and a lot of people migrated to Mac. And it will happen again. Some will freak out but average people will not feel any bumps. Besides, Apple is in the best shape right now. They can afford a lot more knock back compared to the past. Just like they survived a lot of questionable changes ex. headphone jack, notched iPhone or the death of Steve Jobs.

BTW I still want my headphone jack back. The Bluetooth headphone I use is utterly terrible. Sound cracks almost everyday using it.
 
Here we go again.

You cannot install Debian on iPad natively. End period. And this is not my wish. I want to run a local web development server on my iPad to work on the go and I cannot do that. If I had a x86 tablet running macOS, I could do that.

F1 2019 IS A DEMANDING GAME, YES. Look at how the graphics are, you can even see the wind effects. You need the high quality, expensive Nvidia or AMD GPUs to have Ultra High graphics. ARM can't do that.

Project Cars is not a racing game, is a joke of a game. Physics are wrong on it. Graphics in wet conditions are wrong also, the way the particles drops on your visor are also on the wrong side. Crysis?

Zelda? This is not a eSports professional game either. Candy crush fans must be happy.

Switch and PS4 are not computers, we are talking about computers not video games. Bye.

Told you it's iOS not ARM.

Raspberry Pi can run local server for PHP/MySQL.

If you have a x86 tablet running iOS you still can not run any web server on it. Try x86 with Windows 10 in S mode and good luck.
F1 2019 is not a demanding game. Not light graphic wise but not as demanding as Crysis/Witcher 3/Doom.

And Switch runs F1 2019.

So switch runs one of your games that you consider demanding.

You already knows you need better GPU to run the game better so why CPU matters?

ARM CPU can connect to same Titan x86 using.
 
Smash is not a pro game, is a joke.

I called iRacing a simulator, not a game. It can run on mac today, yes. You just need to throw a BootCamp partition and you're ready to go. You can't do that with an ARM based Mac.

I called CS:Go a pro game, not a simulator. There are pro tournament games for that. and their iOS version are not good enough for it. I don't even play CS:Go anymore, anyway.
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BTW I still want my headphone jack back. The Bluetooth headphone I use is utterly terrible. Sound cracks almost everyday using it.

Smash has pro tournament.
EVO is one of it and the prize isn't small.

Fighting game have huge audience since 90s and is still holding strong.

I'm seasoned CS player since early 00s. It went through multiple huge platform changes and still doing well. You could never imagine how different it is to code for early windows and modern Windows.

I would never think of Valve stop innovating on new platform.
 
Told you it's iOS not ARM.

Raspberry Pi can run local server for PHP/MySQL.

If you have a x86 tablet running iOS you still can not run any web server on it. Try x86 with Windows 10 in S mode and good luck.
F1 2019 is not a demanding game. Not light graphic wise but not as demanding as Crysis/Witcher 3/Doom.

And Switch runs F1 2019.

So switch runs one of your games that you consider demanding.

You already knows you need better GPU to run the game better so why CPU matters?

ARM CPU can connect to same Titan x86 using.

Raspberry Pi cannot run macOS so its not of my interest to have two computers at home. the place for this little thing is the recycle bin of my home.

I need both OSes on the same computer and don't tell me to get a Hackintosh because it does not work and never worked well for the three years I used this. F1 2019 is a demanding game, period. Doom is not demanding, neither is Crysis or the laughable Witcher.

"Switch runs F1 2019"
But not with the same graphics quality of a PC, plus Switch is not a computer, does not run macOS, does not run my applications, does not let me do my work. I do not want to buy a video game console.
 
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