Bloomberg: Apple's First Arm Mac to Launch by 2021 With 12-Core Processor

[throAU]

Against Intel's chips that haven't progressed in 8 years, going ARM makes sense. However, AMD's new chips are also leaving Intel behind without needing to rewrite all your x86 software.

Yup, but as I've posted elsewhere, Apple shifting to AMD will leave them vulnerable to what happened with AMD's bulldozer architecture. Or what happened with PowerPC. Or 68k. or 6502.

No.

If Apple move this time, it will be to in-house design so they have full control of their roadmap.

They're going to migrate entirely to ARM in house eventually, it's just a matter of time. This is the first step.

edit:
Actually, it's not the first step at all. Almost their entire product stack is already on in-house ARM.

The Mac is an outlier and is way behind. This is more like the beginning of the last step(s).

Entry MacBook / MacBook Air first. Then MacBook Pros and Mini/iMac shortly thereafter.

The Mac Pro will move eventually too, but intel will have more powerful CPUs at the extreme high end for a while. No more than a few years though I would wager.

Apple are/have already been pushing most bulk number crunching/high end workload off to openCL/metal with dedicated hardware (GPUs, afterburner, etc.). The CPU is becoming less relevant for extreme workloads, and most people should be writing their code to use the processing APIs apple provide - which Apple can port to/optimise for whatever in-house hardware is appropriate.

 

[Bruno Castelló]

Tell me if any ARM based computer can run this game. I know they can't.

I just had to edit my post and make a bolder "computer" word so just I get my point straight and that I am speaking about computers not video game consoles.

 

[high heaven]

Xcode 11.4 : Building for iOS Simu… | Apple Developer Forums

forums.developer.apple.com

show the error you will got when linking x86_64 iOS binary to a Mac Catalyst binrary.

And

Binary Frameworks in Swift - WWDC19 - Videos - Apple Developer

Xcode 11 now fully supports using and creating binary frameworks in Swift. Find out how to simultaneously support devices and Simulator...

developer.apple.com

how xcframework seperate iOS library and Mac Catalyst library.

I know nothing about developing so it's quite impossible to understand.

Do you think Adobe Photoshop and Capture One Pro will work on ARM based Mac OR do they need to make a whole new version of those software just for ARM based Mac?

 

[Bruno Castelló]

I know nothing about developing so it's quite impossible to understand.

Do you think Adobe Photoshop and Capture One Pro will work on ARM based Mac OR do they need to make a whole new version of those software just for ARM based Mac?

They will need to rewrite them, so you will have to spend a lot more of your money to pay for subscription of these apps again. Same thing that happened with PPC to Intel transition; Many people had to pay for a new version for Intel.

 

[MikeZTM]

I know nothing about developing so it's quite impossible to understand.

Do you think Adobe Photoshop and Capture One Pro will work on ARM based Mac OR do they need to make a whole new version of those software just for ARM based Mac?

They will port their current version to ARM just like how they ported PowerPC version to x86 last time.
Windows version already running on x86 yet no one port their windows version to Mac at that time. They all ported the PowerPC version.

 

[Bruno Castelló]

They will port their current version to ARM just like how they ported PowerPC version to x86 last time.
Windows version already running on x86 yet no one port their windows version to Mac at that time. They all ported the PowerPC version.

And remember the PPC version was incredibly terrible compared to Windows x86 version. When I switched to Mac in 2010, Photoshop on mac and Office on mac were so bad that I had to use BootCamp and later, Parallels to use the Windows version.

With ARM based macs, I will not have the BootCamp option, so this is where I jump the ship and switch to a Windows/elementaryOS computer or just Windows alone running last x86 macOS on VMWare to have my apps again.

 

[MikeZTM]

And remember the PPC version was incredibly terrible compared to Windows x86 version. When I switched to Mac in 2010, Photoshop on mac and Office on mac were so bad that I had to use BootCamp and later, Parallels to use the Windows version.

With ARM based macs, I will not have the BootCamp option, so this is where I jump the ship and switch to a Windows/elementaryOS computer.

It never was.

Mac PPC version was even better in most cases especially for Photoshop since Windows version wasn't exist before version 2.0.

 

[Bruno Castelló]

It never was.

Mac PPC version was even better in most cases especially for Photoshop since Windows version wasn't exist before version 2.0.

Are you really trying to argue with a designer, a front-end UI/UX designer about the apps I use at work? Really?

The PPC version I first used between 2000-2005 was worse than the Windows version, period. I know that from my particular experience. Now I use Pixelmator and Vectornator to replace these expensive badly coded Adobe apps.

 

[Nugget]

Need more specificity?? Look at this.

That doesn't answer my question. What prevents an ARM system from having a powerful GPU? Be specific.
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Tell me if any ARM based computer can run this game. I know they can't.

But you do understand that there's nothing preventing Microsoft from porting Flight Simulator to the ARM platform, right?

 

[Bruno Castelló]

That doesn't answer my question. What prevents an ARM system from having a powerful GPU? Be specific.

There is no desktop computer running an ARM cpu with powerful GPU capable of running my games.
There is no desktop computer running an ARM cpu running the apps I need to use at work.
There is no desktop computer running an ARM cpu with all of the above plus macOS and Windows on BootCamp.

And there never will be. Therefore, the ARM based "computers" are useless to me. They are just toys for you to open or close the door of your garage.

End of discussion.

 

[MikeZTM]

Are you really trying to argue with a designer, a front-end UI/UX designer about the apps I use at work? Really?

The PPC version I first used between 2000-2005 was worse than the Windows version, period. I know that from my particular experience. Now I use Pixelmator and Vectornator to replace these expensive badly coded Adobe apps.

Adobe apps are bloated. yes. But not because OS or CPU.

There's no "PPC version of Photoshop". Only "Mac version" that runs on PPC.

PPC is not important. Photoshop on PPC and x86 is the same Photoshop.

 

[Nugget]

There is no desktop computer running an ARM cpu with powerful GPU capable of running my games.

This is correct. But it could change overnight if someone built one.

There is no desktop computer running an ARM cpu running the apps I need to use at work.

Possibly also correct. For the record, I'm in the same situation as you here. I will not be able to do my work on an ARM Mac either.

There is no desktop computer running an ARM cpu with all of the above plus macOS and Windows on BootCamp.

Also correct. If Apple moves macOS to ARM it will be the end of Boot Camp, and that will be a huge loss.

Therefore, the ARM based "computers" are useless to me

Emphasis added.

They are just toys for you to open or close the door of your garage. End of discussion.

This is a totally baseless, unhinged, and unsupportable conclusion that does not in any way follow from your previous points. This is the entire reason you're getting so much flak from everyone else in this conversation. The ARM platform is technically impressive and has a great deal of merit and potential. All of your complaints are about the current state of the computing marketplace and platform ecosystems. They have absolutely nothing to do with ARM as an architecture.

Plus, many of your concerns about software availability could change overnight if Microsoft wanted to change it and found the motivation to do so. Sadly for most of us, Apple don't have any leverage in this regard. If they switch to ARM it won't move the needle with anyone else and it will close a lot of doors for macOS users that they currently benefit from having open.

 

[MikeZTM]

There is no desktop computer running an ARM cpu with powerful GPU capable of running my games.
There is no desktop computer running an ARM cpu running the apps I need to use at work.
There is no desktop computer running an ARM cpu with all of the above plus macOS and Windows on BootCamp.

And there never will be. Therefore, the ARM based "computers" are useless to me. They are just toys for you to open or close the door of your garage.

End of discussion.

There is ARM cpu with NVIDIA Titan.

How the hell same Titan will output worse graphics on ARM when ARM CPU is running faster than your Intel CPU?

Not running your choice of game is not a problem -- developer need a machine first and then start working on it.

Reminds you iPad Pro runs Fortnite at medium settings at 120 FPS in high frame rate mode.
A12's GPU is way faster than Intel integrated UHD and GTX 1030.

People already said exactly the same 14 years ago when Apple switched to x86.
Let the switch begin and you can stay on what you currently running until all your apps present on new platform.

 

[Bruno Castelló]

This is a totally baseless, unhinged, and unsupportable conclusion that does not in any way follow from your previous points. This is the entire reason you're getting so much flak from everyone else in this conversation. The ARM platform is technically impressive and has a great deal of merit and potential. All of your complaints are about the current state of the computing marketplace and platform ecosystems. They have absolutely nothing to do with ARM as an architecture.

My point here is clear: The ARM based computers of today cannot do what I need from them and never will. "technically impressive" ? I have to laugh at this. What's impressive in an ARM computer that can only open a door or turn on or off a lightbulb? Seriously.... It's a complete joke to call it a computer. The ARM architecture will be a flop in the future, and AMD will dominate the market with their x86 AMD Ryzen cpus.
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There is ARM cpu with NVIDIA Titan.

Not running your choice of game is not a problem -- developer need a machine first and then start working on it.

Reminds you iPad Pro runs Fortnite at medium settings at 120 FPS in high frame rate mode.
A12's GPU is way faster than Intel integrated UHD and GTX 1030.

People already said exactly the same 14 years ago when Apple switched to x86.
Let the switch begin and you can stay on what you currently running until all your apps present on new platform.

ARM cpu with NVIDIA titan is not running my apps or games, therefore not interesting for me and not interesting to debate.

Fortnite? Seriously, FORTNITE???? ROFLMAO. This is a ***** game. Candy Crush level of game.

The A12 cpu is "Soooo gooooood" it cannot emulate a x86 OS with Qemu at a decent speed. How fantastic!!

Come on, you have to accept defeat and stop defending what will not have a bright future. ARM is doomed.

All my apps will not be on the "new useless platform" and neither my games will be. I know for a fact, for sure, that they will never be. Panic Coda is a great example of it, and I am not interested in replacing it or abandoning it.

In five years after the failure of these ARM based macs people will be crawling back to their Windows PCs again.

 

[MikeZTM]

My point here is clear: The ARM based computers of today cannot do what I need from them and never will. "technically impressive" ? I have to laugh at this. What's impressive in an ARM computer that can only open a door or turn on or off a lightbulb? Seriously.... It's a complete joke to call it a computer. The ARM architecture will be a flop in the future, and AMD will dominate the market with their x86 AMD Ryzen cpus.

If you ever know how AMD use half the power and beat Intel in performance, you will understand same goes for ARM.

And in fact AMD can only reach this level of performance thank to ARM. Without ARM cash flow will never boost TSMC to this level.

This is just like how x86 started -- nobody ever thought x86 will reach server and workstation market 30 year ago.

 

[Nugget]

My point here is clear. . .

You made many more sweeping and less tenable points in this conversation. It's those other things you said that have generated the bulk of the replies you've enjoyed.

What's impressive in an ARM computer that can only open a door or turn on or off a lightbulb?

I'm not aware of any ARM computers that are this limited in form or function.

 

[MikeZTM]

My point here is clear: The ARM based computers of today cannot do what I need from them and never will. "technically impressive" ? I have to laugh at this. What's impressive in an ARM computer that can only open a door or turn on or off a lightbulb? Seriously.... It's a complete joke to call it a computer. The ARM architecture will be a flop in the future, and AMD will dominate the market with their x86 AMD Ryzen cpus.
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ARM cpu with NVIDIA titan is not running my apps or games, therefore not interesting for me and not interesting to debate.

Fortnite? Seriously, FORTNITE???? ROFLMAO. This is a ***** game. Candy Crush level of game.

The A12 cpu is "Soooo gooooood" it cannot emulate a x86 OS with Qemu at a decent speed. How fantastic!!

Come on, you have to accept defeat and stop defending what will not have a bright future. ARM is doomed.

All my apps will not be on the "new useless platform" and neither my games will be. I know for a fact, for sure, that they will never be. Panic Coda is a great example of it, and I am not interested in replacing it or abandoning it.

In five years after the failure of these ARM based macs people will be sailing back to their Windows PCs again.

1. ARM with top end graphics does exist.

2. Fortnite is a game. Not your flavor is different story.

3. Your x86 CPU can not emulate ARM at a decent speed. Fantastic right?

BTW reminds you qemu is not a emulator. qemu is the front end and the default backend is real time translator which is super slow.
qemu can run on KVM and become super fast if the architecture matches and obviously iOS doesn't allow this to happen.

 

[Bruno Castelló]

I'm not aware of any ARM computers that are this limited in form or function.

Let me present you to the useless, funny and little garbage, called Raspberry Pi.

 

[MikeZTM]

Let me present you to the useless, funny and little garbage, called Raspberry Pi.

Running Minecraft.
Oh and even Windows.

And helped a lot of kids learning programing and tinkering with stuffs.

And much more.

It perfectly runs PHP/MySQL/Apache servers as you need. Yet you consider it's a garbage.

 

[Bruno Castelló]

1. ARM with top end graphics does exist.

2. Fortnite is a game. Not your flavor is different story.

3. Your x86 CPU can not emulate ARM at a decent speed. Fantastic right?

BTW reminds you qemu is not a emulator. qemu is the front end and the default backend is real time translator which is super slow.
qemu can run on KVM and become super fast if the architecture matches and obviously iOS doesn't allow this to happen.

1. ARM with my apps and games and macOS and Windows together does not exist therefore not interesting.

2. Fortnite is not a game, is a joke.

3. It can emulate, I've used Qemu on macOS to emulate a Raspberry Pi. Fantastic, I know. It's a pity that ARM based "computers" can't do the opposite. The furthest I could go is emulate MS-DOS 6.22.
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Running Minecraft.
Oh and even Windows.

And helped a lot of kids learning programing and tinkering with stuffs.

And much more.

It cannot run Windows at full speed, period. It's slower than Rubens Barrichello.

Minecraft? Seriously? People keep throwing at me games even more stupider than Fortnite. What next? Tic Tac Toe?

I can play Tic Tac Toe on a paper, no need for an ARM based "computer" for that. Hey, a paper is better than ARM!

 

[Nugget]

Let me present you to the useless, funny and little garbage, called Raspberry Pi.

I do a lot more than open my garage door with Raspberry Pi machines. They're extremely versatile and powerful for what they cost. I even run a full fledged web server with a database on them. In a Kubernetes cluster, too.

I remember when you had to spend hundreds of dollars on a bespoke Soekris machine to do what a $35 Rpi can do today. It's been transformative and enabling across all types of tasks and applications.

 

[Digital Dude]

It is going to be interesting. However one of the many reasons I prefer Macs is that they can run anything. I can use VMWare, Parallels, VirtualBox or even Bootcamp to run and develop for Linux and Windows at nearly native speeds. Moving to ARM would most likely eliminate that option. I don't know how big of group that is, but I do know that Macs have become many developers primary systems because of that ability.

Really? I've used Bootcamp, and I tried Parallels, and they both sucked on my full-up 2017 MBP. I felt like I was back in the late '90s. Now that Apple decided to go with an ARM, I may switch camps. I never thought I would feel this way.

Likewise, I just returned the so-called new iPad Pro 12.9, and it was fun for about a week. Then it started to act up with several issues. I wanted to keep it, but I had it fully configured, and I couldn't accept the quirkiness for the price paid.

 

[MikeZTM]

1. ARM with my apps and games and macOS and Windows together does not exist therefore not interesting.

2. Fortnite is not a game, is a joke.

3. It can emulate, I've used Qemu on macOS to emulate a Raspberry Pi. Fantastic, I know. It's a pity that ARM based "computers" can't do the opposite. The furthest I could go is emulate MS-DOS 6.22.
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It cannot run Windows at full speed, period. It's slower than Rubens Barrichello.

Minecraft? Seriously? People keep throwing at me games even more stupider than Fortnite. What next? Tic Tac Toe?

Qemu on macOS can not emulate Pi fast enough to be used unless you turn on JIT backend -- which is not allowed on iOS unless you jailbreak it.

Windows 10 ARM can emulate x86 Photoshop.

 

[Bruno Castelló]

I do a lot more than open my garage door with Raspberry Pi machines. They're extremely versatile and powerful for what they cost. I even run a full fledged web server with a database on them. In a Kubernetes cluster, too.

I remember when you had to spend hundreds of dollars on a bespoke Soekris machine to do what a $35 Rpi can do today. It's been transformative and enabling across all types of tasks and applications.

The $35 rPi can't even game. And I mean real games, not candy crush. Therefore rPi shouldn't even be considered a computer.
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Windows 10 ARM can emulate x86 Photoshop.

Sorry, not fast enough to compete with my x86 macOS Photoshop. Not even close. I work with high quality, high resolution graphics. The ARM based computers just don't have enough RAM for the job. I have 16gb of RAM on my x86 Mac and it has never crashed on me.

Any ARM computer running Windows on ARM and Photoshop (if there is ever a version for it) will choke and BSOD with the graphics I work with.
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Really? I've used Bootcamp, and I tried Parallels, and they both sucked on my full-up 2017 MBP. I felt like I was back in the late '90s. Now that Apple decided to go with an ARM, I may switch camps. I never thought I would feel this way.

Likewise, I just returned the so-called new iPad Pro 12.9, and it was fun for about a week. Then it started to act up with several issues. I wanted to keep it, but I had it fully configured, and I couldn't accept the quirkiness for the price paid.

Try VMWare Fusion 15. Metal support, DX11 support. Works flawlessly here, and its a 2013 MBP 13" Late i7.

 

[MikeZTM]

The $35 rPi can't even game. And I mean real games, not candy crush. Therefore rPi shouldn't even be considered a computer.
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Sorry, not fast enough to compete with my x86 macOS Photoshop. Not even close. I work with high quality, high resolution graphics. The ARM based computers just don't have enough RAM for the job. I have 16gb of RAM on my x86 Mac and it has never crashed on me.

Any ARM computer running Windows on ARM and Photoshop (if there is ever a version for it) will choke and BSOD with the graphics I work with.

I get it.

You need bootcamp to run windows on a Mac.

So same old "If Apple not supporting Windows I will go with Windows."

Then please get what you want and build a real gamming PC.

I have iMac and 3900x + 2080Ti PC yet you consider I'm not a gamer. Fine.