Butterfly Keyboard is better than new MacBook Pro

[x-evil-x]

The Butterfly Keyboard is absolutely terrible. I used two versions, 2018 and 2019. The 2019 version was horrible. It was loud, clacky, and difficult to type on. The 2018 version was still horrible but much more usable, it was softer and quieter. I sold my 2019 and bought the 16 Inch. What a difference! It's amazing to type on! Apple really screwed the pooch with the Butterfly keyboard. All I have to say is Goodbye and Good Riddance! You will not be missed!

I don’t know if I believe you or not the 2019 and 2018 are the same. They sound the SAME. They both have the silicone membrane under the keyboard that make it sound less clicky/sharp compared to the 2016/2017. That’s my experience. I had a 2016 and had the keyboard replaced with a 2017 keyboard. Felt and sounded basically the same. my 2019 sounds way less loud than the 2016 I had. There should be no difference between a 2018 and 2019. The 2019 models just had new materials that further cut down on repairs. I haven’t seen any data on people that have had issues with the 2019 model that just came out in May of this year.

 

[calstanford]

In our company inventory, we have a 44% failure rate with 2015/2016/2017 keyboards and 0% (so far) with 2018 & 2019s. I known because i manage them all and have records in our Jamf account.

I personally use a 2019 15 inch and when docked in the office, a full sized magic keyboard. I like them both!

Wow. Older keyboards fail more than newer ones?!

 

[RedTheReader]

I don’t know if I believe you or not the 2019 and 2018 are the same. They sound the SAME. They both have the silicone membrane under the keyboard that make it sound less clicky/sharp compared to the 2016/2017. That’s my experience. I had a 2016 and had the keyboard replaced with a 2017 keyboard. Felt and sounded basically the same. my 2019 sounds way less loud than the 2016 I had. There should be no difference between a 2018 and 2019. The 2019 models just had new materials that further cut down on repairs. I haven’t seen any data on people that have had issues with the 2019 model that just came out in May of this year.

They're very similar, but not quite the same. The membrane in the 2019 model is different to the one in 2018 model, and from what I've seen, it seems to be a lot more effective at doing its job. Yes, I'm aware the 2018 has been out for far longer than the 2019, but the 2018 had a lot more repair sorties associated with it by the end of the year compared to the 2019. In terms of key feel, they do feel similar. Both more mushy and less clicky than the 2016/2017 models. I do believe, however, that each and every incarnation after the 2016 version got mushier than the last. Some more, some less.

They're all excellent IMO, but not equal.

 

[jh.dks]

I never owned a MacBook with butterfly keyboard. I had a rMPB and upgraded a few weeks ago to the 16" new one.

To be honest, I see what he means. When I use friend's MacBook Pro's, I really love how it types. I have to admit I've never used it to write more than say 300 words at once, so I don't really know how my fingers would feel after a long day of using this keyboard. After going back to my rMBP keyboard, it always felt very old and mushy, which I don't have when I switch from my 16" MBP to my rMBP.
Also, I loved the clickydiclack the butterfly's make, even though everyone around me probably disagrees. It also looked very modern and sleek.
My rMBP was really running on its last legs after years of intensive use and traveling the world multiple times with me, so everytime they said they improved the bfkeyboard I thought about upgrading... glad I've been holding back. I expected them to release a Face ID Macbook or something, but I couldn't wait anymore and I'm happy with the 16" now.

I have both the Space Grey and Silver (because I'm still debating which one to keep, but I think it'll be silver, even though I've never had a SG MB yet, it feels like I'd be late to the party). Maybe I'm crazy but it felt like the Silver typed a little different / better.

I'm sticking to that keyboard because for Apple to straight up go back to older technology, really means they admit they messed up somewhere. Usually they'd try to come with something completely new to replace the failure with. I'm planning on using it for years to come, like with all of my Macs and I can't have it fail. I'm traveling all the time and it'd be such an inconvenience for me to have to take it to an Apple Store. So I guess it's better to have the decent and more reliable one, compared to the pretty but rubbish one.

The only thing I kind of dislike is that it bleeds quite a bit of light from underneath the keys and that the esc key is lit up... On the first row with the touchbar, it kinda bugs me the esc key is the only thing that lights up haha... They should've either made the esc key smaller and have it light up together with the Touch ID sensor or they should make it dim together with the touchbar or just not have it light up.

 

[pikkpoiss]

I've written a lot with the butterfly keyboard (2017 MBP 13] and I now have the 16". To be honest I really liked the feel of the butterfly keyboard and I never had any huge problems with it (like repeated keystrokes or keys not working at all), but stuff did get stuck very easily under the keys making them mushy, which was annoying as f when working. Blowing them out worked, but didn't feel very pro (especially when you're in a cafe!). The new 16" keyboard feels ok (I wouldn't say great) and I haven't had any issues with it, still I'm actually kind of sad the butterfly didn't work out.

 

[ksec]

I still hate BOTH the Butterfly and new Magic Keyboard. There is no depth in the key press.

Some people say the Magic Keyboard in MBP 16 is about as key as the Desktop Magic Keyboard, YES, that is because the old Magic Keyboard is using the good old Scissors, which was used in Old MBP2015.

 

[smirking]

[deleted] I posted to the wrong thread.

 

[Ploki]

I tried the 2019 16" in the shop lately... It has less of a "new fresh" feel than the butterfly.

I, too, am disappointed they couldn't make it work. I enjoy typing on my butterfly keyboard, but i use the magic keyboard on my mini and it's not something i won't be able to get used to if a new 14" gets out.

 

[smirking]

All mass produced keyboard designs are going to have some failures.

Especially any keyboards that has any moving parts. That's why the reference keyboard of the 21st century is a spongy cheap feeling keyboard that came bundled with your desktop machine and could be replaced for a retail price of $20US. The ones that Apple made were especially bad editions even though they cost a lot more than $20.

To be honest I really liked the feel of the butterfly keyboard

I hope this isn't the last we've seen of the butterfly keyboards. If it is, I hope Apple isn't done experimenting with keyboards because I find scissor switches to be boring to type on. For people with light strokes like me, they're usually mushy feeling.

I don't know if you can design a scissor that has similar tactility to the butterfly mechanism because if you make the scissor mechanism too stiff, the keys will jam if you hit it off center. You can build tactility into the switch dome, but that wears down over time and you need a healthy amount of travel to make the switch dome the tactile element.

I think travel and stiffness are basically the issues at play with the butterfly mechanism. It's ultra low travel so it means it's easier for debris to get in the way and because it's so stiff, if anything interrupts the motion, it doesn't just warp and become goofy for a few keypresses until the obstacle shifts. It just stops (until the obstacle is either crushed or shifts). Otherwise, a butterfly is a scissor by any other name. They do the same job. They aren't switches. They're stabilizers.

Well, I've got at least a few more years to get bored of typing on my 2018 MBP and hopefully something better comes along by then or I'll just bring my own as I did before. Boutique mechanical keyboards have really come down in price and are much easier to obtain than they used to be.

 

[jh.dks]

Some people say the Magic Keyboard in MBP 16 is about as key as the Desktop Magic Keyboard

I'm surprised everybody keeps saying this. To me, the Magic Keyboard feels way more clicky and I like the feeling, but for some reason I'm not a very fast typer on the MK. It feels more like the butterfly keyboard to me.
The 16" MBP keyboard feels more like the older keyboards (mushier), and is a lot quieter.

I guess my only thing is, it doesn't feel very exciting coming from a rMBP. But I also have to admit everybody I know with a BF keyboard (2016, 2017 and 2018) have had failures (they magically disappeared, though, but these people aren't really power users or don't type all that much).
If this is what makes the keyboard reliable, I'm ok with it. It's not like it's a bad keyboard, just different compared to the BF's.

 

[revmacian]

I've only owned butterfly keyboard equipped notebooks, so I've never experienced the pre-bf keyboards. My 2017 MBP and 2019 MBA are doing well, no issues. However, I have recently played with a 16" MBP in a local store and I really like the feel. The new scissor MacBook keyboard feels better than my butterfly keyboards but not as good as the Apple Magic Keyboard. I'm looking forward to buying a new MBP just because of the scissor keyboard.

 

[ksec]

I'm surprised everybody keeps saying this. To me, the Magic Keyboard feels way more clicky and I like the feeling, but for some reason I'm not a very fast typer on the MK. It feels more like the butterfly keyboard to me.
The 16" MBP keyboard feels more like the older keyboards (mushier), and is a lot quieter.

I guess my only thing is, it doesn't feel very exciting coming from a rMBP. But I also have to admit everybody I know with a BF keyboard (2016, 2017 and 2018) have had failures (they magically disappeared, though, but these people aren't really power users or don't type all that much).
If this is what makes the keyboard reliable, I'm ok with it. It's not like it's a bad keyboard, just different compared to the BF's.

Exactly, ignoring the name, the MBP16 keyboard felt like a ( slightly ) better BF keyboard, but felt so different to the Magic Keyboard. Basically still ****.
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I've only owned butterfly keyboard equipped notebooks, so I've never experienced the pre-bf keyboards. My 2017 MBP and 2019 MBA are doing well, no issues. However, I have recently played with a 16" MBP in a local store and I really like the feel. The new scissor MacBook keyboard feels better than my butterfly keyboards but not as good as the Apple Magic Keyboard. I'm looking forward to buying a new MBP just because of the scissor keyboard.

Basically the Pre-BF keyboard were the "As good as Apple Magic Keyboard".

Now you get why some people are mad.

 

[revmacian]

Exactly, ignoring the name, the MBP16 keyboard felt like a ( slightly ) better BF keyboard, but felt so different to the Magic Keyboard. Basically still ****.
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Basically the Pre-BF keyboard were the "As good as Apple Magic Keyboard".

Now you get why some people are mad.

Yes, I can understand why they did it.. they want to make the device thinner - it's the same reason the camera protrudes on the back of iPhones. I do wish Apple would stop this silliness of making the thinnest devices; thinnest != best. Hopefully, now that Jony Ive is gone, Apple can get back to worrying more about function than appearance.

 

[ZombiePhysicist]

Yes, I can understand why they did it.. they want to make the device thinner - it's the same reason the camera protrudes on the back of iPhones. I do wish Apple would stop this silliness of making the thinnest devices; thinnest != best. Hopefully, now that Jony Ive is gone, Apple can get back to worrying more about function than appearance.

I WAY prefer devices like the iPhone 5 where they made the device flush up to the camera. It's obvious you want to use the extra space for battery, and the devices still are more than thin enough. It just needs to be thin enough to to be pocketable, and that is not a super thin threshold.

 

[AustinIllini]

The feel of the 16" keyboard is just money. I use magic keyboards and the 16" and when I go to the butterfly for whatever reason it just doesn't fly for me anymore.

 

[smirking]

Hopefully, now that Jony Ive is gone, Apple can get back to worrying more about function than appearance.

I don't think the thin is merely for aesthetics. Thin is also a form factor that defines the function. The PC is not dead, but it's getting close to its destination in its current form.

If PCs are to continue on well into the future, they'll need to be able to evolve into new form factors and become integrated with other objects. We may not absolutely need a super thin laptop keyboard today, but 10-20 years from now there will be something that has an embedded "PC" inside it that could only be viable if it could also be mounted with a super thin switch interface.

I personally don't think the butterfly mechanism or touch bar are vanity projects, but iterations that are supposed to ultimately lead somewhere. Of course, they may ultimately land right in the gutter, but that is the risk of attempting to innovate. Most innovations end in failure. People seem to forget that.

 

[MrUNIMOG]

I WAY prefer devices like the iPhone 5 where they made the device flush up to the camera. It's obvious you want to use the extra space for battery, and the devices still are more than thin enough. It just needs to be thin enough to to be pocketable, and that is not a super thin threshold.

Yes, I can understand why they did it.. they want to make the device thinner - it's the same reason the camera protrudes on the back of iPhones. I do wish Apple would stop this silliness of making the thinnest devices; thinnest != best. Hopefully, now that Jony Ive is gone, Apple can get back to worrying more about function than appearance.

Hate to break it to the two of you, but every iPhone since (and including) the iPhone X has been thicker than the iPhone 5/5s/SE. The latest ones, 11 and 11 Pro (Max), actually by a lot.

Still the cameras protrude quite a bit. I don't think many people would tolerate an iPhone much thicker (and heavier) than the current lineup. The iPhone 11 Max is the heaviest iPhone ever.

In fact ever since the iPhone 6, Apple has only been making iPhones thicker. But the cameras also got bigger, so the bump stayed.

 

[ZombiePhysicist]

Hate to break it to the two of you, but every iPhone since (and including) the iPhone X has been thicker than the iPhone 5/5s/SE. The latest ones, 11 and 11 Pro (Max), actually by a lot.

Still the cameras protrude quite a bit. I don't think many people would tolerate an iPhone much thicker (and heavier) than the current lineup. The iPhone 11 Max is the heaviest iPhone ever.

In fact ever since the iPhone 6, Apple has only been making iPhones thicker. But the cameras also got bigger, so the bump stayed.

Who cares, so make it thicker than those phones. No one cares. I'd rather it be flush like the iphone5 doesn't mean it has to be the same thickness. Whatever the thickness of the camera is fine. Use that on the Pro models where people actually need battery life. For the others, do whatever fashion dictates, I don't give a darn.

 

[MrUNIMOG]

Who cares, so make it thicker than those phones. No one cares. I'd rather it be flush like the iphone5 doesn't mean it has to be the same thickness. Whatever the thickness of the camera is fine. Use that on the Pro models where people actually need battery life. For the others, do whatever fashion dictates, I don't give a darn.

As I said, most people won't be willing to tolerate a phone much thicker and heavier than the iPhone 11, 11 Pro and 11 Pro Max in particular. Those are behemoths.
Apple isn't going to make a special model just for the 1 % who are willing to, and it's silly to ask for that.

 

[ZombiePhysicist]

As I said, most people won't be willing to tolerate a phone much thicker and heavier than the iPhone 11, 11 Pro and 11 Pro Max in particular. Those are behemoths.
Apple isn't going to make a special model just for the 1 % who are willing to, and it's silly to ask for that.

We disagree. First, the protrusion of the lens on the Max is somewhere between .5mm to 1mm. Not exactly a "lot" thicker and heavier.

And secondly, I think most pros/heavy phone users will GLADLY take a thicker phone with more battery life. Agreed that apple will not make a phone for 1% of the base, but I know WAY WAY WAY more than 1% of the base will sacrifice a little more thickness for more battery life.

See 16" MacBook.

 

[MrUNIMOG]

We disagree. First, the protrusion of the lens on the Max is somewhere between .5mm to 1mm. Not exactly a "lot" thicker and heavier.

And secondly, I think most pros/heavy phone users will GLADLY take a thicker phone with more battery life. Agreed that apple will not make a phone for 1% of the base, but I know WAY WAY WAY more than 1% of the base will sacrifice a little more thickness for more battery life.

See 16" MacBook.

That's why iPhone 11 and 11 Pro are as thick and heavy as they are.

The increase in thickness from XS to 11 Pro was in fact a more significant one than from 15" to 16" MBP.

 

[ZombiePhysicist]

That's why iPhone 11 and 11 Pro are as thick and heavy as they are.

The increase in thickness from XS to 11 Pro was in fact a more significant one than from 15" to 16" MBP.

And another mm won't kill them either. More battery and make it flush with the lens. A lot of people will appreciate it.

 

[TBoneMac]

Who cares, so make it thicker than those phones. No one cares. I'd rather it be flush like the iphone5 doesn't mean it has to be the same thickness. Whatever the thickness of the camera is fine. Use that on the Pro models where people actually need battery life. For the others, do whatever fashion dictates, I don't give a darn.

no thanks

apple doesn’t like shipping air. Making the phone thicker for the sake of getting rid of the bump does nothing good except make a few people happy, not the majority mind you. if they make the bump disappear then they have to add a larger battery or other internals to fill up that airspace, they will not just make thicker glass It’s too expensive and heavy for no reason. Either way it will increase the cost of the iPhone and if they just add more glass then it will be more expensive and heavier again for no reason.

the camera bump is a great feature. It means that when you put on a phone case that the phone is still thin as can be even with the added size of the phone case. Not to mention how good looking the iPhone camera bump actually is these days.

now Phones have found a good thickness overall and they change slightly each year but it’s mostly the same. The cameras keep improving so the bump is needed. Apple does an excellent job making their camera bump appealing. It’s arguably the most attractive part of the iPhone.

making it flush would look ugly in comparison to their current set up. But then again I am sure if and when they decide to make it flush they will have a very attractive design to go with it.

all this to say that the camera bump is definitely not the most important aspect of the iPhone to work on.

its pretty safe to say that Apple will be using the current setup for a while. The iPhone 11 and pro both have such attractive cameras that I doubt Apple will stop making them like this for a while. You can tell from the glass that it’s quite the process they have set up to cut the glass so perfectly. I doubt Apple will be benching it anytime soon unless some huge improvement occurs for the cameras that allows much smaller but more powerful cameras.

 

[petvas]

I got my 16" MacBook Pro this Wednesday so I don't have a lot of typing experience with the Magic Keyboard, but I also have a Magic Keyboard for my iPad. I have used a butterfly 13" MBP for a year and had some issues with stuck keys, that went away after cleaning the keyboard (and never came back). The typing experience on the Magic Keyboard is better, but the first day I used it I thought it felt worse than the butterfly keyboard. Now that I got used to it, I believe that it's better and if you combine it with reliability, then this change can only be a good thing. If the butterfly keyboard were reliable for all people, then I wouldn't mind using it in the future also, but now I prefer the feeling of the Magic Keyboard.

 

[ZombiePhysicist]

no thanks

apple doesn’t like shipping air. Making the phone thicker for the sake of getting rid of the bump does nothing good except make a few people happy, not the majority mind you. if they make the bump disappear then they have to add a larger battery or other internals to fill up that airspace, they will not just make thicker glass It’s too expensive and heavy for no reason. Either way it will increase the cost of the iPhone and if they just add more glass then it will be more expensive and heavier again for no reason.

the camera bump is a great feature. It means that when you put on a phone case that the phone is still thin as can be even with the added size of the phone case. Not to mention how good looking the iPhone camera bump actually is these days.

now Phones have found a good thickness overall and they change slightly each year but it’s mostly the same. The cameras keep improving so the bump is needed. Apple does an excellent job making their camera bump appealing. It’s arguably the most attractive part of the iPhone.

making it flush would look ugly in comparison to their current set up. But then again I am sure if and when they decide to make it flush they will have a very attractive design to go with it.

all this to say that the camera bump is definitely not the most important aspect of the iPhone to work on.

its pretty safe to say that Apple will be using the current setup for a while. The iPhone 11 and pro both have such attractive cameras that I doubt Apple will stop making them like this for a while. You can tell from the glass that it’s quite the process they have set up to cut the glass so perfectly. I doubt Apple will be benching it anytime soon unless some huge improvement occurs for the cameras that allows much smaller but more powerful cameras.

That is a false dichotomy. The options are not leave a bump or make it flush but leave a cavity of air. Make the battery bigger so we have more battery life to fill the void.

We disagree on the camera bump, that you like it, well that's your taste. Others feel differently.