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Certainly in the applications i use teh most commonly used featuers have shortcut combos, just like windows, it's just that the keys are different to get there. If you need to move focus to a bar to issue a command then tbh, you can probably mouse it as quickly anyway. I don't quite understand why you would need to set focus unless you were switching between apps :)apple:+tab usually does this for me). If I wanted to bookmark this page in firefox, I'd just :apple:+d, I wouldn't bother highlighting the bar in any way first.

What you can't do (I don't think) is alt-f to activate the File pulldown on the menu bar and then scroll down the list to get to the command you wanted (or left or right to get to other menu tabs). As has been noted elsewhere, Ctrl-f2 will get you to the :apple: though which is part of the way there if you really need to do this. Usually the important features within an app all contain their own individual shortcuts though, which is even quicker than, say, alt-f; x (just first one off top of head)

Good god, that's been around since Windows 3.1 (or earlier). Alt key combinations used to be the only way to navigate efficiently. Closest thing to a UI standard in Windows apps from day one.

lollage... The User Interface has been somewhat hacked over the years... and in M$ terms, this concept goes back to dosshell on MSDOS 5 from my memory... it's probably older and someone else's idea though...
 
Macs can because you can just use BootCamp if you don't like mac shortcuts. They are easy to remember. I tis simply your willingness to learn them that makes it hard. Windows users are so used to their commands that they think Mac ones are harder, it's all the same. And Mac OS X has way more shortcuts than windows can hope to have. What with Hot corners, :apple: key configurations, and much more. Windows certainly doesn't have Exposé or Spaces. I can tell you that now.
 
The problem is, when you switch, you can't keep expecting OS X to do everything the same as Windows. As you explore, you'll find there are lots of things XP does better, and lots of things OS X does better. I personally hate navigating like that, so it's useless to me, but for someone else, like you, it's something you'll miss dearly. Everyone chooses their OS and computers based on what makes them the most efficient. This is the way it is, I'm afraid.

I totally understand your point. In fact, the reason why I had such a smooth transition to OS X when I switched in 2006 (switch is a big word, because I use 3 OS) was because I never expected things to be like Windows. I certainly was not looking for a Start button. And I had no problem adjusting to being able to resizing a window from one corner only.

What I'm complaining about is that a more efficient way to access the menu items exists Cmd+F to access the file menu would have been very nice for example. This is especially handy for people who use dual screens or for people suffering from carpal tunnel syndrome like me.

You're right when you said there things that OS X does better than XP and vice versa. This is why I find OS X vs XP debates useless. Maybe one day, someone will come up with an OS X which combines the best of both world.
 
bob2131: I know exactly what you mean. I've been wondering menu shortcuts have not been implemented in OS X. In XP, I can access the Help menu if one key combination. In OS X, I have to access the Apple menu first, then use the arrow key to navigate to the Help menu. When it comes to shortcut keys, I personally think Windows does a better job.

in my leopard........i go to the apple menu first..........then fn and h takes me to help menu..........you dont have to go through them one by one.......(if i remember correctly last night) so i press fn and the first letter of the menu i want........

i have actually found a new renenwed love for my windows xp machine.
lol

and the apple 101 section on apple site, no mention of this navigation.
 
xp you prefer?

not saying that......ive only had mac for one day!!
give me a few years.....

also xp has mouse keys function.........so you can control the moue pointer with the arrow keys..........

bit slow but useful if in extrememly bad pain with wrist........also to annoy people if this setting is turned on!

fn key on macbook..........do desktop macs have this key?????????????

The problem is, when you switch, you can't keep expecting OS X to do everything the same as Windows. As you explore, you'll find there are lots of things XP does better, and lots of things OS X does better. I personally hate navigating like that, so it's useless to me, but for someone else, like you, it's something you'll miss dearly. Everyone chooses their OS and computers based on what makes them the most efficient. This is the way it is, I'm afraid.

its often the fastest way to choose options if you really use it..

Certainly in the applications i use teh most commonly used featuers have shortcut combos, just like windows, it's just that the keys are different to get there. If you need to move focus to a bar to issue a command then tbh, you can probably mouse it as quickly anyway. I don't quite understand why you would need to set focus unless you were switching between apps :)apple:+tab usually does this for me). If I wanted to bookmark this page in firefox, I'd just :apple:+d, I wouldn't bother highlighting the bar in any way first.

What you can't do (I don't think) is alt-f to activate the File pulldown on the menu bar and then scroll down the list to get to the command you wanted (or left or right to get to other menu tabs). As has been noted elsewhere, Ctrl-f2 will get you to the :apple: though which is part of the way there if you really need to do this. Usually the important features within an app all contain their own individual shortcuts though, which is even quicker than, say, alt-f; x (just first one off top of head)



lollage... The User Interface has been somewhat hacked over the years... and in M$ terms, this concept goes back to dosshell on MSDOS 5 from my memory... it's probably older and someone else's idea though...

yeah but when theres not a key combo shortcut...like in photoshop....i use my xp method to go to image menu and then press c for cmyk......its not about setting focus, its about getting to the option in a menu without using the mouse.....mouse is bad for wrist.....for me......alt and f? lol
thats exactly what im talking bout in the first place........alt and any first letter on bar opens up a menu..........its not just with f.....

cheers............my macbook keybaord does not have an apple key.........
desktop keyboards do have an apple key right????

Maybe one day said:
or maybe one day microsoft will combine the best of both worlds!
 
Its much easier to just use shortcuts instead of jumping to the menubar then using arrow keys etc to get to what you want. One two key combination can usually do what is required.
 
To be fair, the OP has a point, and I do think Windows does it a bit better in this regard. A lot of you keep point out keyboard shortcuts to the OP, which are great, but are actually a completely different thing than what he is referring to.

Both OS's offer keyboard shortcuts (e.g. command-s versus Ctrl-S as a shortcut for File|Save). That's not what we're talking about.

Windows offers a keyboard navigation mode whereby I can navigate through the entire menu bar by simply hitting the "alt" key and using the arrow keys.

So if I have an application whose menus I have NEVER seen before -- and therefore I have no idea what the keyboard shortcuts are for the menu commands; indeed, maybe I don't even know what menu commands are available -- and cannot use the mouse to navigate, I can hit the "alt" key and arrow around and see all my options, and hit "Enter" to execute the currently highlighted one.

I will try the Ctrl-F2 shortcut on my Mac when I get home and see what happens -- never tried it.

Granted, it's also slightly confusing to newbies and even I occasionally get tripped up because I've accidentally hit the "alt" key without realizing it, and all my user input is going into the menu bar instead of the document, and it takes a second to realize what happened. Always a trade off.

I'm not disputing that it's much easier to use keyboard shortcuts directly, on either platform -- but that's only helpful when you know what the shortcuts are in the first place. If you don't, it could potentially be a chicken-and-egg situation!
 
To be fair, the OP has a point, and I do think Windows does it a bit better in this regard. A lot of you keep point out keyboard shortcuts to the OP, which are great, but are actually a completely different thing than what he is referring to.

Both OS's offer keyboard shortcuts (e.g. command-s versus Ctrl-S as a shortcut for File|Save). That's not what we're talking about.

Windows offers a keyboard navigation mode whereby I can navigate through the entire menu bar by simply hitting the "alt" key and using the arrow keys.

So if I have an application whose menus I have NEVER seen before -- and therefore I have no idea what the keyboard shortcuts are for the menu commands; indeed, maybe I don't even know what menu commands are available -- and cannot use the mouse to navigate, I can hit the "alt" key and arrow around and see all my options, and hit "Enter" to execute the currently highlighted one.

I will try the Ctrl-F2 shortcut on my Mac when I get home and see what happens -- never tried it.

Granted, it's also slightly confusing to newbies and even I occasionally get tripped up because I've accidentally hit the "alt" key without realizing it, and all my user input is going into the menu bar instead of the document, and it takes a second to realize what happened. Always a trade off.

I'm not disputing that it's much easier to use keyboard shortcuts directly, on either platform -- but that's only helpful when you know what the shortcuts are in the first place. If you don't, it could potentially be a chicken-and-egg situation!

You can do that in OSX too. When you press ctrl+F2 it highlights the apple menu then use arrows to move where you want. Press the down arrow to open that menu then enter to select what you want. Once in a menu you can use letters to jump to different options. Is this what you mean?
 
yeah but when theres not a key combo shortcut...like in photoshop....i use my xp method to go to image menu and then press c for cmyk......its not about setting focus, its about getting to the option in a menu without using the mouse.....mouse is bad for wrist.....for me......alt and f? lol
thats exactly what im talking bout in the first place........alt and any first letter on bar opens up a menu..........its not just with f.....

cheers............my macbook keybaord does not have an apple key.........
desktop keyboards do have an apple key right????

Your Macbook does actually have an apple key...It's just not labelled that way any more. It's the Command key, directly left of the spacebar. With the four leaf clover looking logo on it. Apple Key and Command Key are the same thing...
 
To be fair, the OP has a point, and I do think Windows does it a bit better in this regard. A lot of you keep point out keyboard shortcuts to the OP, which are great, but are actually a completely different thing than what he is referring to.

Both OS's offer keyboard shortcuts (e.g. command-s versus Ctrl-S as a shortcut for File|Save). That's not what we're talking about.

Windows offers a keyboard navigation mode whereby I can navigate through the entire menu bar by simply hitting the "alt" key and using the arrow keys.

So if I have an application whose menus I have NEVER seen before -- and therefore I have no idea what the keyboard shortcuts are for the menu commands; indeed, maybe I don't even know what menu commands are available -- and cannot use the mouse to navigate, I can hit the "alt" key and arrow around and see all my options, and hit "Enter" to execute the currently highlighted one.

I will try the Ctrl-F2 shortcut on my Mac when I get home and see what happens -- never tried it.

Granted, it's also slightly confusing to newbies and even I occasionally get tripped up because I've accidentally hit the "alt" key without realizing it, and all my user input is going into the menu bar instead of the document, and it takes a second to realize what happened. Always a trade off.

I'm not disputing that it's much easier to use keyboard shortcuts directly, on either platform -- but that's only helpful when you know what the shortcuts are in the first place. If you don't, it could potentially be a chicken-and-egg situation!

yes yes yes my man!!

dude.......you dont have to use alt and arrow keys on windows.......
look for the undelined letter and just hit that with alt also.........same when the pop out menu opens.........just hit the first letter of option you want, it jumps there...........you dont need to use arrow keys to go from left to right, you can but it takes longer often.......

most windows users i know, dont even know about this........
i only learnt it as i started researching ways to lessen RSI pain, and came across it on winows shortcuts website..........

mouse keys are also a very good idea..........but not very fast or accurate or efficient...........
 
yeah but who can learn EVERY shortcut for EVERY option for EVERY package?? its not possible.......

They are all pretty standard shortcuts i.e. they often remain the same throughout apps in osx. Obviously some vary from time to time. It's surprising what stuff you remember when you spend time with your machine.

I watched a video of myself the other day (the camera was left on by mistake and filmed me at work on my mac) and it was weird looking at me putting a brochure together and punching in shortcut after shortcut and hardly touching the mouse. Because you could hardly see the screen it almost looked like I was typing a letter. :D
 
Your Macbook does actually have an apple key...It's just not labelled that way any more. It's the Command key, directly left of the spacebar. With the four leaf clover looking logo on it. Apple Key and Command Key are the same thing...

apple key looks and sounds better ........they should hve left it.......

what are the desktop keyboards like?
 
apple key looks and sounds better ........they should hve left it.......

what are the desktop keyboards like?

The name Command key was coined before Apple key if I remember but some people don't know what the command key is so its often referred to as the apple key. :)

yes yes yes my man!!

dude.......you dont have to use alt and arrow keys on windows.......
look for the undelined letter and just hit that with alt also.........same when the pop out menu opens.........just hit the first letter of option you want, it jumps there...........you dont need to use arrow keys to go from left to right, you can but it takes longer often.......

most windows users i know, dont even know about this........
i only learnt it as i started researching ways to lessen RSI pain, and came across it on winows shortcuts website..........

mouse keys are also a very good idea..........but not very fast or accurate or efficient...........

You may have missed my edit regarding once being in a menu you can press the first letter of an item and it will jump to it just like XP.
 
The name Command key was coined before Apple key if I remember but some people don't know what the command key is so its often referred to as the apple key.

This is my very biggest hate about switching to apple. Macusers of old all know it as command and call it such, but it isn't always called that on the keyboard, which is oddly poor design. It's all moot anyway, cos usually when you see the shortcut it's written with the funny symbol but pronounced 'command'. A bit like Prince, I suppose!

The majority of the important stuff (copy paste cut etc) from the straight MS UI is the same on OsX but with the command or :apple: instead of the CTRL. Same goes for Photoshop, all the shortcuts are the same as Windows, but you use :apple: or command instead of CTRL. I've yet to find an equivalent of CTRL+arrow for zipping through text though, which is quite annoying. Being able to hop whole words can be nice for editing.

Back to the OP's shortcuts, though: Having just played with it, CTRL-F2 to get you to the :apple: menu and then you can use the first letter of the menu to zip to the pulldown you want. If there is more than one F (say) it runs through the F's left to right in order. Once at the menu, an arrow or the SPACE gets you into the menu contents, and then you can do the same routine of first letter and cycle if nec. You can also use the arrow keys at any point after CTRL-F2. Where it does get a bit whacko is if you press a letter that isn't a menu option. Some keys take you back to :apple:, some (Z) seem to take you back to last letter selection but I'm really not sure about this behaviour.

OsX does have an accessibility mode, it's in :apple:>system prefs>system>universal access. The actual keyboard options (sticky keys and stuff) are a bit pants, but if you go to the 'mouse' tab, there IS an option to turn on 'mouse keys'. I have no idea how well they work though, but I imagine they'll use the arrow pad. I can't visualise an MBP or MB keyboard, so you'll have to play with this I'm afraid.

You could certainly plug a full size board into an MBP or MB if you wanted to. My personal fave at the mo is the white Pro A1016, the one they just replaced with aluminium ones. My wife likes the aluminium ones, which are more laptoppy. Apart from being a bit compact the old USB iMac boards were pretty good to type on too. There's a bunch of pictures here http://www.dvwarehouse.com/Apple-USB-Wired--Keyboards-c-253_244_545.html&pltid=ab958e7e455ad9c7ee7916b1ea405671

sorry that's got a bit long! :)
 
You can do that in OSX too. When you press ctrl+F2 it highlights the apple menu then use arrows to move where you want. Press the down arrow to open that menu then enter to select what you want. Once in a menu you can use letters to jump to different options. Is this what you mean?

I'll give that a try when I get home! I hope so!

I don't use a feature like this that often, but it's good to know it's there.
 
reallly?.........control & F2........thats kind of a long way to stretch your fingers..........and then plus another key for the destination.........


thanks, ill check it tonight.


Right. How the heck do you exit a program in windows?

See, in OSX, experienced users don't need to do the menu key because the menus are on top of the screen near the edge, thus the mouse can access it EASILY. In addition, many keyboard shortcuts are standardized and easy to reach with the command key.

In windows the menu is in an inefficient place (in addition, most shortcuts for windows use the inefficient CTRL key), thus the NEED to use the ALT key for the menu.

If you need to do something, experienced Mac users can do it quicker than window users.
 
Right. How the heck do you exit a program in windows?

See, in OSX, experienced users don't need to do the menu key because the menus are on top of the screen near the edge, thus the mouse can access it EASILY. In addition, many keyboard shortcuts are standardized and easy to reach with the command key.

In windows the menu is in an inefficient place (in addition, most shortcuts for windows use the inefficient CTRL key), thus the NEED to use the ALT key for the menu.

If you need to do something, experienced Mac users can do it quicker than window users.


alt f4 on windows = lol = big stretch!
menus on top of the screen? lol
so are they in xp.....what?
menus on both platforms are on top of screen.......
 
alt f4 on windows = lol = big stretch!
menus on top of the screen? lol
so are they in xp.....what?
menus on both platforms are on top of screen.......

Yea... Silly arguement. I will say though is that you can set keyboard shortcuts to anything from any application and with any keys in OSX really easy in your preferences.

I set hot keys (Apple + E or something) to all my most used functions in each program. :D
 
Yea... Silly arguement. I will say though is that you can set keyboard shortcuts to anything from any application and with any keys in OSX really easy in your preferences.

I set hot keys (Apple + E or something) to all my most used functions in each program. :D

really? i thought key commands are changed for diff programmes from within each package.......not from wihtin OSX.................same as XP.........

programmes are the same on both platforms, to be fair..........
 
You're right when you said there things that OS X does better than XP and vice versa. This is why I find OS X vs XP debates useless. Maybe one day, someone will come up with an OS X which combines the best of both world.

Well, it's not completely useless.

a) Argument could bring some points out that one person may not know about the one OS that could lead them to have a slightly different opinion.

b) There are a few objective things that can argued.

However, for things like this, it's pretty useless, because, I haven't found a single thing that Windows does better for my usage :p But I know that there are a lot of things for other users.

its often the fastest way to choose options if you really use it..

Actually, a correction:

It is one of the ways to navigate around, and possibly one of the faster ones in Windows. Windows has a menu bar for every app, instead of one at the top of the screen, so using a mouse to get to menu commands is so much easier on OS X than Windows. Plus, you have to consider: If you are memorising the key combinations to navigate through the menus based on letters, why not just memorise the shortcuts instead and be that much faster? It's not going to be uber fast navigating that way unless you know exactly what you need to hit while going through.

yeah but who can learn EVERY shortcut for EVERY option for EVERY package?? its not possible.......

Many of the shortcuts are shared between programs. There's not a single program on my Macbook, including all the iLife programs, browsers, Logic Express, Adium, games, et cetera, that I do not know every shortcut I require to use the program. Note that that's not every shortcut there is, but it's every one for a command I use. I can be very efficient, but I think you'll find that using the trackpad on your Macbook is a hell of a lot easier than trackpads on other laptops. I hated laptop trackpads until I bought my Macbook :) It's so spacious and easy.

really? i thought key commands are changed for diff programmes from within each package.......not from wihtin OSX.................same as XP.........

programmes are the same on both platforms, to be fair..........

Well, actually, they aren't. An example: iTunes on Windows is ****** compared to the OS X version. Another example: Microsoft office is ****** on....ah, wait, nevermind, it's ****** for both platforms. ;)

But there will be many variations between differently coded programs, even if they are technically the same program.

Another example: MSN Messenger for Mac is terrible. It's not bad on Windows.

Edit: Just to be clear, I'm not arguing for this kind of a feature not to be in the OS (though you can make the feature by adding shortcuts, or with Quicksilver, as people have said), but rather, a extrapolation of what I said in my last post about not wanting OS X to be exactly the same as Windows. The placement of the menu bars was just one example, but there's many things that work well in Windows, that wouldn't necessarily make sense in OS X. A feature such as this being gone doesn't make Windows "better" just like some feature that OS X has doesn't make it "better." If you really can't let go of one or two small things you could do on Windows, but can't on OS X, then there's really no reason to switch. You do what works best for you.
 
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