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Canon Digital Rebel XT/350D Announced.
- Thread starter jared_kipe
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Moxiemike
macrumors 68020
jared_kipe said:
Hey. Mr Phil shoots raw for those sample images. I'm sure he post-processes them too. And they all show how great digital cameras can be in general. 😉
Like I've said, you don't understand digital photo like a pro does. Go out and get snap happy with your Rebel. That's fine. Soccer moms do it. Soccer dads do it. Serious amateurs do it. But don't make grandious statements about a market you obviously don't understand. 😉
Chip NoVaMac
macrumors G3
Moxiemike said:
Which samples are you talking about? Most anything other than from Canon's own site are labeled clearly as preproduction. While I might not always like his reviews, I will wait for DPRview to do a full review before passing judgment. Even then it should be taken with a grain of salt. For noise the 20D beats anything that, till the D2X or D2Hs comes, Nikon has. But in the end there are many satisfied Nikon users. So go figure. 😀
The point being is, that the fan-boy talk from both sides does not help people trying to decide. Any of the DSLR makers today, are offering products that will do the job that 80% of the users need. The other 20% need to look at detailed reviews in order to make their own judgments.
absolut_mac
macrumors 6502a
jared_kipe said:
Jared, the focus on your pics is way too soft, and I'm not the only here who has mentioned it. As I mentioned in my post much earlier on this thread, here are those extremely sharp pics from www.photo.net that I had in mind about Canon being just as sharp as the Nikon.
FWIW I'm a Nikon guy, only because I do have some Nikon glass from my old film days, but haven't bought a D70 yet, because that 1.5" screen is almost less than useless for my middle aged eyes. Nikon need to fit at least a 2.5" screen onto it if they want to attract more buyers like me.
Please note that all of these pics are copyrighted, hence the links and not the actual pics. Secondly, all were shot with Canon cameras, and all are incredible IMHO.
http://www.photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=2561574
http://www.photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=2642958
http://www.photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=3132935
http://www.photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=3132939
http://www.photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=3130387
Chip NoVaMac
macrumors G3
iGary said:
In the XT vs. 20D debate this page gives the best insight on what is what:
http://www.bobatkins.com/photography/digital/eos_digital_rebel_xt_vs_20d.html
absolut_mac
macrumors 6502a
absolut_mac said:
I know the flower pictures are kinda soft, but I don't think my others are, what lenses do you suppose those people are shooting with?
Mord
macrumors G4
Moxiemike said:
this sent about who's the more knolageable photographer now it's about the forum rules and you failed to even aknolage the point of my post, which in turn proved my point.
jared being a consumer buying a consumer grade DSLR and this being what the thread is about, your point it m00t, your posts make you look like your just out to waggle your digital penis crapping on other peoples thread trying to look like big man photographer
absolut_mac
macrumors 6502a
jared_kipe said:
I'm not sure what computer monitor you're using at home, but I'm using a 17" Viewsonic G70 graphic series, and the focus on all your pics seems a little bit too soft. Which is fine for some special effects, but appears like your settings aren't quite right, because all your pics appear that way.
While Moxiemike's and the ones that I posted appear very sharp to me.
If you look at the bottom of the pics that I posted, you'll see 4 grey buttons - Options, Details, Critiques and Larger. Clicking on Details will tell you what equipment was used, and usually what image manipulation, if any, was used.
Moxiemike
macrumors 68020
absolut_mac said:
See, Jared is apparantly against photoshopping his images. I'm sure the ones you posted (and mine) have some USM applied in PS. Won't help most of his pics (the flower ones are just too soft to save detail). But some could be saved by some quick levelling and some USM.
And hector, this isn't about wagging a digital penis. This is about people spreading information and not really being educated on the topic. I think that my experiences with both systems, pro, prosumer and consumer, give me a very informed edge. And i've said it over and over. Both have advantages and drawbacks, and image quality, when in the hands of someone knowledgeable with the feature set and basic photography, is a coin toss.
Jared, whose knowledge obviously isn't up there, is just parroting some bile he heard on dpreview.com. I'm here about photos, and image quality. Jared wants to just talk about camera bodies and which is "the best".
The plain answer is, none of them are the best. You want great image quality? Three words: Scanned Medium Format. (Or digital MF if you can afford the buy in!)
Chip NoVaMac
macrumors G3
absolut_mac said:
You truly show what a "tool' can do in the right hands. Some really nice images.
As someone that sells this stuff day in and day out, I try to stay out of the "fan-boy" comments. With digital is is harder to do. Since we are not relying on film (which can be changed), but sensors (that can't be changed) - the serious photographer has to take a look at what can do the job they expect. I am talking about the other 20% of us out there.
For some of the talk that I have seen in MR, no one should go digital, or ever shoot with a zoom lens. The same goes for the comments I read on DPReview or PhotoNet.
In the end the camera is just a tool. Some tools may require more work, others make it so simple that almost anyone can do it. But in the end it matters who is behind that tool and how they use that tool makes a difference.
absolut_mac said:
Hmm, I don't know, for one, all the ones you posted were using awesome lenses, much superior to mine. They were probably using some kind of flash or tripod too. But I don't know why mine later ones wouldn't be very sharp, I used a reasonable 28-105 3.5-4.5 USM at medium aperatures, and quick shutter speeds. Plus I don't think the parameters have anything to do with shooting in raw which I did for all but the last few bird/duck pictures (come on guys, 2GB CF cards, I'm using a 256mb, if I don't have enough money for a cheap 100-300mm lens why would I be wasting my money on microdrives, maybe I should get one of the belkin ipod accesories). That said, I don't think they are that soft. Could they be sharper, who knows. I guess my hands are too shaky to even shoot in daylight :'(
absolut_mac
macrumors 6502a
Moxiemike said:
Actually, this point has been pointlessly argued in photo mags and work shops for decades. Let's face it, even an apparently straight print-out of a roll of film still has some image manipulation due to minor color differences from roll to roll. Kodak even boasts that their latest printing machines don't just adjust correct color and lighting from roll to roll, but now even do so from shot to shot.
IMHO it's not really a matter of who is right or wrong, it's just a matter of personal opinion. The majority opinion nowadays seems to be that minor manipulation is fine, but montages, removing/replacing objects and backgrounds is not.
The bottom line is that whatever makes the end user happy is fine - whether that be the photographer himself/herself or his/her client.
FWIW the closest one gets these days to no manipulation is to shoot slides. Hence one of the reasons for slides popularity among professional photographers for so long.
Jared, even if you do absolutely no manipulation to your pic after taking it, keep in mind that your camera's software does some in-camera manipulation whether you're aware of it or not. Hence the reason that most pros prefer to work with RAW images.
Mord
macrumors G4
Moxiemike said:
you really don't get it do you, this thread is entirely about what is the best body (in it's class) look at the thread title it's about canon's new body, jared is not against photoshoping he's for a fair test and that cant be done what the bad bit's are smoothed over by a good photoshop.
you seemed to turn the thread into who's the better photographer.
Moxiemike
macrumors 68020
jared_kipe said:
I think you want to place too much emphasis on the tool. I have horribly shaky hands, yet I handhold 90% of my shots these days, if only because a tripod isn't always a reasonable thing to use. So if you think your hands are shaky, maybe find some articles on technique for handholding. A longer lens isn't gonna help, if only because it'll be harder to handhold. Maybe you need a tripod. You can get one for the rebel fairly cheap, as it's not that heavy of a camera. Maybe you need to learn more about post-process (I think you definitely do). maybe you aren't shooting at the right aperture. Maybe you need a better lens. And better doesn't always mean big bucks. Gary and I were fawning over 50mm lenses that don't cost more than $80 bucks!
Maybe your lens is a bad sample. Zoom lenses are often less sharp than primes, comparable to price. Perhaps you should look at the 50mm or 35mm primes. Or save up for say, the SIgma 24-70, which isn't more expensive than your lens (i don't think). Maybe adjust the sharpness settings in your rebel. See, there's more to photography than "8mp Digital Rebel 350xt!"
As i said, it's obvious i have more experience than you. I'm not bragging, just stating a fact. If you don't like my images, i don't care. BUt if you want some tips, i'll gladly share.
Guntis
macrumors member
Comparison
Let me also add my two pennies here...
I've been taking pictures with both cameras. Canon isn't bad, but it feels really "plastic", while D70 body is much better. Not really "rock-solid", but much closer to that. Kit lens quality for both cameras have big differences, i.e., Nikon's lens is much better, both optically and mechanically (ultrasonic!). It locks on focus much faster. When my friend who owns Canon EOS 300D (Rebel) tried out D70, he almost jumped after the first shot and immediately looked at the lens - such was his reaction at superiority of Nikon's lens. 300D lacks flash compensation, and comparing to D70 is much slower both at startup and reviewing taken images. That said, Canon's CMOS technology gives less noise, although up to ISO 800 there is not big deal, asif you shoot in RAW, there are lots of programs to reduce noise, even almost eliminate it. So we can talk about any significant noise only on images taken above ISO 800. There Canon's images will be a bit smoother. All in all, in my opinion Nikon's effering is much better, although little bit more expensive. Nikon's body feels better in my hands and I like Nikon's button layout better. Nikon SB-800 speedlight is very good too. If I could rate Nikon D70 at 100 points, Canon 300D would get 90 points. As I mentioned - Canon lacks flash compensation (real minus!), Canon 300D lacks top LCD screen, its body feels less robust, it's slower, the only advantage over Nikon D70 is Canon's sensors have better signal-to-noise ratio. So the closest competitor to the D70 will be Canon 350D... (If Nikon won't introduce new camera body)
Let me also add my two pennies here...
I've been taking pictures with both cameras. Canon isn't bad, but it feels really "plastic", while D70 body is much better. Not really "rock-solid", but much closer to that. Kit lens quality for both cameras have big differences, i.e., Nikon's lens is much better, both optically and mechanically (ultrasonic!). It locks on focus much faster. When my friend who owns Canon EOS 300D (Rebel) tried out D70, he almost jumped after the first shot and immediately looked at the lens - such was his reaction at superiority of Nikon's lens. 300D lacks flash compensation, and comparing to D70 is much slower both at startup and reviewing taken images. That said, Canon's CMOS technology gives less noise, although up to ISO 800 there is not big deal, asif you shoot in RAW, there are lots of programs to reduce noise, even almost eliminate it. So we can talk about any significant noise only on images taken above ISO 800. There Canon's images will be a bit smoother. All in all, in my opinion Nikon's effering is much better, although little bit more expensive. Nikon's body feels better in my hands and I like Nikon's button layout better. Nikon SB-800 speedlight is very good too. If I could rate Nikon D70 at 100 points, Canon 300D would get 90 points. As I mentioned - Canon lacks flash compensation (real minus!), Canon 300D lacks top LCD screen, its body feels less robust, it's slower, the only advantage over Nikon D70 is Canon's sensors have better signal-to-noise ratio. So the closest competitor to the D70 will be Canon 350D... (If Nikon won't introduce new camera body)
Guntis said:
First off I was shooting in raw, I said that, and secondly the very first thing I did when I got my camera was throw in a card that had the hacked firmware on it. BAM flash exposure compensation, among other things. Another thing is price 😉
absolut_mac
macrumors 6502a
jared_kipe said:
Your pics are very nice for someone who hasn't had his camera long enough to fully explore all the possibilities.
Having said that though, there are certain rules which do not change regardless of whether you're using film or digital, or whether you're using a prosumer or DSLR camera.
Rule number one - If you want razor sharp pics for close-ups (macro) or telephoto shots, you need to use a tripod.
Rule number two - If you want razor sharp pics of night shots that involve exposures longer than 1/30th of a second, you need a tripod.
Rule number three - Disregard all rules and just go out and have fun. If you're happy with the results, that's all that really matters. However, if you post pics on any forum and ask for comments, don't be upset by honest criticism, just go back to the drawing board and do better next time 😉
Chip NoVaMac
macrumors G3
absolut_mac said:
Not sure about the machines Kodak uses, but many of the newer mini-labs are going from analog-to-digital for printing. And in the process they are using sharpening routines that really add some "punch" to the images.
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