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Canon who? Nikon D70 Outspecs the "Rebel"

Originally posted by Counterfit
I saw a review of the 828. It was extremely in depth. Especially when comparing image quality to that of the 10D, the 828 has more noise (even at ISO 64) due to it having more sensors in a much smaller area. Pixels (and specs) do a camera make. However, the Sony has a nice lens, and you would have to spend a pretty penny to match it on the Canon. Not bad for Sony's first try at a pro camera.
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Yes, the 828 definitley lagged in it's image quality. As noted above, not bad for a first effort, but there's a reason that pro camera makers keep their edge. They've been at it for decades, just like Sony has with their Betacams!

I have a problem with the layout and design. When Moxiemike said he hated the 10D's layout, I guess familiarity is what most serious users like. I found Canon's pretty intuitive, and a natural progression from their EOS 1n bodies that I used to use (now gathering dust on my shelves!).

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sonydscf828/page21.asp
 
If I'm not mistaken.. Doesn't Nikon use Sony made ccd? I just sold my Nikon d1h and got me a Canon 1ds and a D60. Im not to keen on Sony ccds since allot are prone to chromatic aberation/purple fringing(See reviews on sony 828) I shoot with a Nikon f5 film mostly but for digital I like Canons and L glass plus Canon makes thier own Sensors.

Your Lenses will last a life time.. your camera will last you 3 -5 years max(if you avoid the upgrade bug) What ever lenses you feel you have most collected upon choose the appropriate body to match. After all we buy Digial SLR and Film cameras for the options of using different lenses for creativity.. I wouldn't judge a camera for its Kit lens.


Kodie
 
Why didin't Nikon go to ISO 100) this time around ? I hope they fixed allot of what was wrong on the D100.. The noise issues esp in extreme low light shots. Some photographers do almost exclusively low light to night shots.. If they put a different CCD in thier from the D100 I'd be willing to give it a chance and a entry level DSLR.
 
Originally posted by kodiecap
Why didin't Nikon go to ISO 100) this time around ? I hope they fixed allot of what was wrong on the D100.. The noise issues esp in extreme low light shots. Some photographers do almost exclusively low light to night shots.. If they put a different CCD in thier from the D100 I'd be willing to give it a chance and a entry level DSLR.
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There really isn't a noise issue on the D100. At least no more than the 10d or the 300d. The D100 and 10d take VERY similar images in low light (i've compared them both, as have many other sites).

The nikon is as clean as the 10d.

The 300d is noisier (much so!) than both.

The dynamic range of ISO 100 on the Nikon dSLR's CCD prevents it's usefulness.

That said, ISO 200 is cleaner on the D100 than ISO 100 on the 300d and not much different than ISO 100 on the 10d and a HUGE improvement over P&S cams.

Now when compared with ISO 125 on the D1x or the 1d... different story. BUt then again, the price is a different story.

That said, you don't lose anything when you lose ISO 100... the clarity is there.

What it boils down to is, the 300d with good lenses is nice. The d100 or 10d with good lenses is great. The d1x or 1d are the pro choices.

Honestly, between the 10d and the D100... it's a toss up. Though I will say the D100 focuses better in lowlight than the 10d.

The 300d (and this COULD be the lens...) could BARELY focuse in low light. Though if you push it long enough....
 
Originally posted by kodiecap
If I'm not mistaken.. Doesn't Nikon use Sony made ccd? I just sold my Nikon d1h and got me a Canon 1ds and a D60. Im not to keen on Sony ccds since allot are prone to chromatic aberation/purple fringing(See reviews on sony 828) I shoot with a Nikon f5 film mostly but for digital I like Canons and L glass plus Canon makes thier own Sensors.

Your Lenses will last a life time.. your camera will last you 3 -5 years max(if you avoid the upgrade bug) What ever lenses you feel you have most collected upon choose the appropriate body to match. After all we buy Digial SLR and Film cameras for the options of using different lenses for creativity.. I wouldn't judge a camera for its Kit lens.


Kodie
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You must have a lot of cash to burn! a 2k F5 + good (i'm assuming) nikon glass + a 1k d60 and 8k 1ds + Canon L glass?

I'll give you a couple hundred and take your nikon gear off your hands and you can move to all Canon (since you have more of an investment there!)

:)
 
Originally posted by Moxiemike
You must have a lot of cash to burn! a 2k F5 + good (i'm assuming) nikon glass + a 1k d60 and 8k 1ds + Canon L glass?

I'll give you a couple hundred and take your nikon gear off your hands and you can move to all Canon (since you have more of an investment there!)

:)
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HAHA ,
I Don't know if I have as much cash as you think though I'm spend mostly on photgraphic equipment. The real kicker is that I'm a "PC" Game Level Deisgner for a big company in San Rafael CA. and I'm in a Mac forum. :D I had to make the switch after over16+ years of PC struggles. I now feel like i once did when i got my first Commodore 64. haha

Take Care
 
I just want Foveon to license their new chip technology to everyone else...

Holy Crap! have you seen and image taken with one of those things? the color and clarity is amazing...

technocoy
 
The only thing that makes me think about passing on the D70 is that the chosen transfer interface is USB 1.1 - I would've liked for it to be FireWire or USB 2.0. Other than that, it makes for a beatiful buy and I think that I will come around once I lay my hands on one of them and try it out.
 
Originally posted by superduperjacob
The only thing that makes me think about passing on the D70 is that the chosen transfer interface is USB 1.1 - I would've liked for it to be FireWire or USB 2.0. Other than that, it makes for a beatiful buy and I think that I will come around once I lay my hands on one of them and try it out.
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Gosh. anyone who would pass on a camera--be it the DRebel or the D70 for this reason is foolish!

On a $1000 cam? I can't see it being a big deal. Now on a $3200 D2h or the like? Sure.

That said, I always use a belkin card reader. A bit more reliable and it doesn't sap the battery. A whopping $30 extra! :D
 
Originally posted by Moxiemike
Gosh. anyone who would pass on a camera--be it the DRebel or the D70 for this reason is foolish!

On a $1000 cam? I can't see it being a big deal. Now on a $3200 D2h or the like? Sure.

That said, I always use a belkin card reader. A bit more reliable and it doesn't sap the battery. A whopping $30 extra! :D
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I agree using the the camera to transfer images would not be my concern. For me its there for emergency situations. Then again I carry an assortment of card readers. Much faster and easy enough to take to anyones house without worrying about camera drivers that maybe be needed on certain older OS's be it windows or mac. Maybe its just me but I'm kind of too lazy to pull out the USB covers on my camera body. That in itself annoys me but to each his own. Then again this is just my opinion:) .Like if one were to resell there camera allot of wear would be visible on the flaps of these compartments. ie.finger nail scratches on rubber usb flaps, wear on hinges etc. my 2 cents.
 
Originally posted by Moxiemike
Gosh. anyone who would pass on a camera--be it the DRebel or the D70 for this reason is foolish!

On a $1000 cam? I can't see it being a big deal. Now on a $3200 D2h or the like? Sure.

That said, I always use a belkin card reader. A bit more reliable and it doesn't sap the battery. A whopping $30 extra! :D
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ditto ... i plan on getting a belkin card reader for my iPod soon so that i can get my pics to mass storage quickly

so i think the 1.1 isn't something i'm going to notice to much
 
Digital SLRs just keep getting more and more tempting. My Sony F707 probably has another year or so of life in it before the upgrade heebie jeebies set in too strong. ;)

I love hearing all the pro/semi-pro reviews everyone is contributing here, too. My main hump to get over will be the separate lenses, since I'll be starting from scratch. I'll have to start with a kit or all around lens and build up a collection from there.

I second the earlier comment about getting Foveon tech to take off. It will definitely make for an interesting battle between high megapixels and more accurate ccds.
 
I wonder about lag time

the article at nikon said that it's "hardly noticeable"

i wonder what the definition is ... cause if that lag time is good ... i'm definatly getting one
 
Originally posted by Rower_CPU
Digital SLRs just keep getting more and more tempting. My Sony F707 probably has another year or so of life in it before the upgrade heebie jeebies set in too strong. ;)

I love hearing all the pro/semi-pro reviews everyone is contributing here, too. My main hump to get over will be the separate lenses, since I'll be starting from scratch. I'll have to start with a kit or all around lens and build up a collection from there.

I second the earlier comment about getting Foveon tech to take off. It will definitely make for an interesting battle between high megapixels and more accurate ccds.
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Sticking witht the F707 is a good idea since the 828 will offer you no real improvment. ie.F828(More pixels+Same ccd size=higher noise. . I've actually read off many forums that the 707 and 717 are better ..


Kit leanses are wonderful to start with..Just remember not to judge the cameras overal image quality from a kit lens. Some are great some are much better off using another lens. I use Prime lenses and only have a few "zoom type lenses". I mainly use zoom type lenses for walk around shooting etc.

"It will definitely make for an interesting battle between high megapixels and more accurate ccds"

I would take accuracy and quality any day over megapixels. A good expample is to compare Cameras like the older Nikon D1 and Canon D30 to 5+ megapixel point and shoot cameras. These old dogs of DSLR can compete with newer prosumer cameras any day as far as picture quality. I know allot of other factors are involved like, Speed,auto focus etc.. but it all comes down to picture quality.

Just my 2 cents again
 
Originally posted by evoluzione
so it's finally a full frame ccd like the canon??

please correct me if i'm wrong on that :)
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I believe canon 1ds is Cmos not ccd sensor... hehe :)
 
Originally posted by evoluzione
so it's finally a full frame ccd like the canon??

please correct me if i'm wrong on that :)
Click to expand...

I believe canon 1ds is Cmos not ccd sensor... hehe :)
 
Originally posted by Moxiemike
Gosh. anyone who would pass on a camera--be it the DRebel or the D70 for this reason is foolish!

On a $1000 cam? I can't see it being a big deal. Now on a $3200 D2h or the like? Sure.

That said, I always use a belkin card reader. A bit more reliable and it doesn't sap the battery. A whopping $30 extra! :D
Click to expand...
I got a PCMCIA CF reader for $11 at Circuit City.

CalfCanuck: I'll take one of those 1N's off you. Heck, I'll even pay shipping :D
 
Originally posted by evoluzione
so it's finally a full frame ccd like the canon??

please correct me if i'm wrong on that :)
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Not even close. The D70 is a 1.5 field of view crop (about the same as the 10D, which I seem to remember is 1.6.

Just be realistic about the sensors - it costs a lot to get that larger coverage of a full size 35 mm sensor, and you have to pay for that. If anyone came out with the full frame sensor feature even at the low end pro market ($2000) they would CLEAN UP.

As an example, even the Canon 1D Mark II (just released today) with support for 100 MB per second (!!!!!!) has a 1.3 Multiplier effect. This is geared for the motor-drive section of the pro market that needs the 8 frames a second. One has to move up to the Canon 1Ds for the full frame support, and that's a $6500 body.

Here's the preliminary specs on the D70 from dpreview:

http://www.dpreview.com/articles/nikond70/page2.asp

And here's the latest specs on the new 1D Mark II.

http://www.dpreview.com/articles/canoneos1dmkii/default.asp
 
Nikon lens multiplier info

I'm not a Nikon guy, but decided I need to include the sensor cropping on their models to go with my previous post about Canon. So here's the info from their usa website:

Looks like the D1X, the D2H, the D1H, the D100 and the D70 all have a lens multiplier effect of 1.5x.

Kind of funny compared to the Canon's EOS 1Ds (1.0), 1D (1.3) and 10D (1.6) ratings - looks like Nikon has some design issues that have standarized around that 1.5 multiplier, because I don't believe that all those models use the same sensor...
 
Re: Nikon lens multiplier info

Originally posted by CalfCanuck
I'm not a Nikon guy, but decided I need to include the sensor cropping on their models to go with my previous post about Canon. So here's the info from their usa website:

Looks like the D1X, the D2H, the D1H, the D100 and the D70 all have a lens multiplier effect of 1.5x.

Kind of funny compared to the Canon's EOS 1Ds (1.0), 1D (1.3) and 10D (1.6) ratings - looks like Nikon has some design issues that have standarized around that 1.5 multiplier, because I don't believe that all those models use the same sensor...
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For Evo:

Here's the Multiplier effects:

Canon:
300d: 1.6x
10d: 1.6x
1d: 1.3x
1d mkII: 1.3x
1ds: full frame

Nikon:
d1: 1.5x
d1h: 1.5x
d1x: 1.5x
d2h: 1.5x
d100: 1.5x
d70: 1.5x

Fuji: (nikon mount)
Finepix S2: 1.5x

Kodak (nikon mount)
14n Pro: full frame

Pentax:
*ist: 1.5x

Sigma: (foeveon!)
SD9/10: 1.7x

Nikon has "standardized" on the 1.5x image crop as their "DX" standard, probably stemming from engineering difficulties (or just price constraints) in the development of sensors.

as such, they've also developed a NICE series of "DX" lenses, which take into account the 1.5x crop factor:

10.5mm fisheye = 15mm fish on D series body
12-24 G f4 = 18-26 f4 on D series body
17-55 G f2.8= 28-90 f2.8 on D series body
18-70 f3.5-4.5 = 28-105 on D series body

All of the lenses has AF-S (silent wave motor for fast focusing) and they are all ED element glass (extra dispertion for less chromatic abberation) and they all have that nice, semi-professional/professional nikon build.

The 17-55 and the 12-24 are EXPENSIVE, but the new 18-70 should be around $300 and be of similar optical quality to the EXCELLENT 24-85G lens that Nikon has out now.

Canon offers "EF-s" lenses for the Digital Rebel ONLY.

the Kit lens:
18-55 f3.5-5.6 = 29-88 on 300d
55-200 f4.5-5.6 = 88-320 on 300d

These lenses are pretty much consumer build quality all around. I don't know anyone who has the 55-200 (most opt for the 70-300 Sigma, which i'm SURE is opitcally superior and has a TON of telephoto (480 on the 300d). I'm sure the 55-200's quality is acceptable. BUt I think Canon lacks in that these lenses only work on ONE camera. And knowing Canon (they've changed their mount before!) It's entirely possible that the 300d lenses MAY NOT work on future canon bodies. That would take the stuffing out of their "first sub 1k dSLR" march I think.

Sigma (one of my fave lense companies. Check 'em out!) offers one "Digital" series lens:

Sigma 12-24 f4.5-5.6
EX (professional finish) Which equals a 18-36 on Nikon and a 19-38 on Canon.
This lens costs around $500.

I think Nikon has the best strategy with their sensor format and lenses. I don't mind the smaller sensor, as it's easier to engineer. If it gets me 16-22mp (medium format res) some day for 2k i'm sold.

Canon is weird (to me) since they have 1.3x's, 1.6x's and full frame. Plus some odd rebel only lenses, etc.

Sigma's Digital initiative is to be looked at seriously, though the slowness of that lens makes it primarily a landscape lens for me. Though I may get it.

SO the crop factor isn't as big of an issue as it was a year ago. That said, no one ever knows what's happening in the digital world. Hehe
 
sorry to repost this

but ... .Does anyone know how the lag time stacks up in this camera?

and my second question is ... the 6.1 megapixel sensor .... what kinda prints can i get out of it

i know it's 3008 x 2000

so at 300 dpi thats 10 x 6.5 (roughly)

and i've often been satisfied with the 300 dpi even though i've been reading that 400 dpi is much closer to what the actual image compared to film is.

my question is ... how big can i print and it will still look nice ?
 
Originally posted by revenuee
sorry to repost this

but ... .Does anyone know how the lag time stacks up in this camera?

and my second question is ... the 6.1 megapixel sensor .... what kinda prints can i get out of it

i know it's 3008 x 2000

so at 300 dpi thats 10 x 6.5 (roughly)

and i've often been satisfied with the 300 dpi even though i've been reading that 400 dpi is much closer to what the actual image compared to film is.

my question is ... how big can i print and it will still look nice ?
Click to expand...

If the shutter lag is anything like the D100, it's not an issue at all. I do action/sports oriented stuff ewith th d100 all the time, and have no issue with SL. Juts make sure mirror lockup is off (which adds a half sec. delay between the mirror flipping up and the shutter closing.

But yea. I don't think you'll see much in the way of shutter lag, it'll be similar to the 10d/d100/f100/n80 areas of camera.


As far as 6mp goes? I've done 24x36 prints (and 125dpi) and the quality is AWESOME. I go up to 11x17 @ 300dpi with no problem.

The key is getting good lenses, with good reslving power.

I've noticed that the 300d kit lens doesn't have as much resolution as the Sigma 70-300 my buddy uses, and the 50mm primes, and good prosumer-ish lenses from Nikon (that I know about... not as schooled in mid-range Canon gear) gets me some stunning resolution.

What size are you looking to print?? 8x10's are virtually indistinguishable from film, and the 18x24 + sizes only "show their true colors" when you put your nose about an inch from 'em. :)

6mp would be good for ya.... if not, the Fuji S2 gets 12mp (though interpolated...) and nets out to like, 9mp.

Of course, you should ALWAYS shoot raw, and save as 16bit tiffs for NO lose of info. and you can size up a lot.
 
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