Confederate Flag Avatars: Time to say Goodbye

[b0fh666]

Whereas Southern society had no concept of a special race that was entitled to rule over others. Things could've been so much better in NA.

but it would be only a few not everybody

 

[FrisbeeK9]

My position is that it is now time to banish the Confederate Flag because it has - post Civil War - come to represent attempts to disenfranchise and oppress African-Americans.

Robert E. Lee was not an "evil" man. Neither, in his way was Jefferson Davis. John Bell Hood. Stonewall Jackson or most of the hundreds of thousands of ordinary Southerners who fought for the Confederacy. But they were, to quote U.S. Grant:



There is so much to love and admire about the Southern United States. Its culture. Its food. Its music. (A fair amount of the forgoing being owed to its African-American citizens, but I digress). NASCAR.

Why celebrate, cling to (to use a somewhat charged phrase) a symbol of that region's lowest, worst history? Its ultimate defeat, disgrace, and dishonor. Put aside the Klu Klux Klan. Pre-redemption George Wallace. The Birmingham Baptist Church bombings. Bull Connor. The assassination of Martin Luther King.

Maybe you don't see the Confederate Flag as being representative of those things. Fine. But most other people do see it in those terms.

And ultimately, thats what counts. It is way past time for white Southerners to grow up. To accept the fundamental evil that slavery represented. To stop hiding behind terms like "states rights" and "northern aggression." Embrace and celebrate everything that is good about the South.

And cast aside a symbol that represents the worst.

Well said!

 

[sartrekid]

Multiculturalism isn't an unmitigated success it's an unmitigated disaster. Hopefully, you can keep it in Europe because we don't want it here.

That isn't quite true. At this point it's neither a success nor a failure. You'll find plenty evidence to support pretty much any stand you wish to take on the issue.

Emigration of nations and groups of people have existed for thousands of years in the pursuit of finding a better place to live. That hasn't and won't ever change.

In order for multiculturalism to function, people need to work, and work hard, each and every single person, group, and nation. But people are by-and-large lazy. It's much easier to stay in one's comfort zone, embrace the known, negate and dismiss everything that feels remotely different. Multiculturalism can have a lot going for it anywhere in this world if people tried. Tried harder.

One does not have to give up on one's own identity, tradition, and culture in order to accept and respect that of someone else's, unless that identity is closely tied to a concept of hate/destruction/oppression (in whatever shape or form).

Whenever and wherever multiculturalism fails, it's in no small amount due to one group of a specific culture/race/religion/gender being disrespectful/hostile towards another group of a specific culture/race/religion/gender. Let's just continue to point fingers at one another. Hate breeds hate. Nothing good can come of it. Ever.

You don't have to segregate, you don't have to be hostile towards that which you don't know. It's the easy way out and certainly the most comfortable and convenient thing to do and requires the least of efforts. It's also the path of the most horrid of consequences. For everyone. History is our most sincere and blunt witness to that and we're all part of it.

The world is not a static, closed place. Emigration is the most natural of traits to humankind and the reason why you are where you are geographically and not here in Europe or, going back farther, in Africa. There's no reason to be proud of that. It wasn't of your doing. In the same vein, there's no justification to be proud of your race or gender. Those aren't your doings either, obviously.

So why then is it so hard to understand that some people find it hurtful when a symbol that is so heavily associated with the dehumanization of an entire race is asked to not be showcased in the form of avatars on this international and multicultural forum? I know this is a rhetorical question since you've already stated that you really don't give a rat's behind. I just wished I understood it better.

 

[zachlegomaniac]

I've been rocking the Union Flag(s) a ton lately because I'm from the north, and they get zero press.

 

[Renzatic]

And not over slavery? What parts that are lectured in global history books do you consider false?

He's right, actually. The Civil War was fought over states rights.

The South wanted to own slaves, the North said no, so the South threw up their hands and bailed on the whole unified nation thing. It's pure tyranny for someone to believe they have the right to strip me of my freedom to strip another man of his freedom and own him as a beast of burden.

 

[Oudinot]

I don't see where multiculturalism has worked anywhere. Not in England, France, Germany or even in the Scandinavian countries. It doesn't unite the people but places a barrier between them. If I wanted to leave the U.S. and move to another country I feel it would be incumbent upon me to mesh with my new home and not be at odds with it. I would need to learn the language as probably the first step in the process. What's the point to making a new life when all you do is try and resurrect what you new previously had. I just don't get it.

 

[Renzatic]

I don't see where multiculturalism has worked anywhere. Not in England, France, Germany or even in the Scandinavian countries. It doesn't unite the people but places a barrier between them. If I wanted to leave the U.S. and move to another country I feel it would be incumbent upon me to mesh with my new home and not be at odds with it. I would need to learn the language as probably the first step in the process. What's the point to making a new life Shen all you do is try and resurrect what you new previously. I just don't get it.

That's why the US isn't widely regarded as The Great Melting Pot, rather the Great Balkanized Cultural Hodgepodge.

 

[Oudinot]

He's right, actually. The Civil War was fought over states rights.

The South wanted to own slaves, the North said no, so the South threw up their hands and bailed on the whole unified nation thing. It's pure tyranny for someone to believe they have the right to strip me of my freedom to strip another man of his freedom and own him as a beast of burden.

If it were only that simple. There were arguments over taxes, military and an assortment of other issues. We don't teach that in schools anymore because it's not PC.

 

[vrDrew]

I don't see where multiculturalism has worked anywhere.

I'll tell you where multiculturalism has worked:

Right here. The United States is the most vibrant, successful country in the history of the world. And it got that way by taking the best of pretty much every nation and culture on earth, mixing it up and creating something new - and better.

Yeah: As a nation, the US was started by white guys whose ancestors mainly came from the British Isles. But even back then they were incorporating influences from France, from Ancient Greece and Rome. And things didn't stay that way for long.

I cannot think of a single element of US society; culture; economics; athletics; whatever - that hasn't been made better thanks to the contributions of people coming here from around the world.

 

[triptolemus]

Emigration

 

[Renzatic]

If it were only that simple. There were arguments over taxes, military and an assortment of other issues. We don't teach that in schools anymore because it's not PC.

No. It really is that simple. The vast majority of the declarations of secession list slavery, and the violations of the laws surrounding it by the union, as their primary grievance.

History isn't on your side on this one.

Here you go.

South Carolina

Mississippi

Georgia

Texas

And all the rest.

It's all flowery, self righteous justification for "hey, you promised to return our runaway negro slaves to us, and now you're saying YOU WON'T? AND THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT IS NOW VIOLATING THE LAW BY CHOOSING TO BACK YOU UP? WELL ENOUGH OF THIS!"

 

[ProjectManager101]

Thinking about changing my avatar to this.

LOL... That was a Thug Life kind of reply, you made my day.

 

[ProjectManager101]

Actually, if we are talking about flags, this flag would be considered offensive by many in the world
Should its use be banned here?
Asking for a friend...

View attachment 573743

I am agreed. When you are in the internet you are world wide, not just U.S. stuff. I understand the banning of the confederate flag because of the things happening in the U.S. but I could ask to ban certain things as well because they are aggravating to me since I am Venezuelan.. OR ask to accept some other stuff. For example, gringos are gringos but they feel offended by the word. Or people here are very offended by gay remarks and lets no start when I call someone negro... my dad used to call me "mi negrita" and I am blonde (in a way). I do not want to micromanage stuff either but just for you to be aware of things and cultures and what implies to have forum that is actually international. Saturday 11 PM, I have to go. Guys, go out, get drunk and get the girl. A pict of me tonite.

 

[Oudinot]

I'll tell you where multiculturalism has worked:

Right here. The United States is the most vibrant, successful country in the history of the world. And it got that way by taking the best of pretty much every nation and culture on earth, mixing it up and creating something new - and better.

Yeah: As a nation, the US was started by white guys whose ancestors mainly came from the British Isles. But even back then they were incorporating influences from France, from Ancient Greece and Rome. And things didn't stay that way for long.

I cannot think of a single element of US society; culture; economics; athletics; whatever - that hasn't been made better thanks to the contributions of people coming here from around the world.

Diverse yes. Multicultural not so much.

 

[Oudinot]

No. It really is that simple. The vast majority of the declarations of secession list slavery, and the violations of the laws surrounding it by the union, as their primary grievance.

History isn't on your side on this one.

Here you go.

South Carolina

Mississippi

Georgia

Texas

And all the rest.

It's all flowery, self righteous justification for "hey, you promised to return our runaway negro slaves to us, and now you're saying YOU WON'T? AND THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT IS NOW VIOLATING THE LAW BY CHOOSING TO BACK YOU UP? WELL ENOUGH OF THIS!"

BS

 

[dukebound85]

Please tell me exactly where, and under what circumstances, the United States flag would be considered "offensive".

Asking because I think your "friend" is a bunch of baloney.

you are kidding right?

 

[Renzatic]

BS

History's inconvenient like that.

 

[throAU]

You can't have freedom of speech and freedom of expression and yet at the same time want to ban and suppress images that you dislike.

 

[throAU]

Please tell me exactly where, and under what circumstances, the United States flag would be considered "offensive".

Asking because I think your "friend" is a bunch of baloney.

You are aware that there are a great many countries outside of the united states, and that a large percentage of them dislike your country due to the proxy wars they have fought and the constant desire to prop up the industrial military complex via playing world police (but really, it's about resources - otherwise you would have played world police in Saudi Arabia decades ago) at the expense of civilians everywhere?

And your government's need to collect all data from everyone in the world, snoop on everyone's private conversations, break their encryption, deliberately weaken crypto standards, etc.?

I find it amazing how the OP wants to ban display of an image, and yet in the same breath claims that no one could possibly hate the US flag, no doubt because of some belief that the US is all about freedom and liberation and warm fuzzies and stuff.

The level of delusion is astounding.

 

[Renzatic]

You are aware that there are a great many countries outside of the united states, and that a large percentage of them dislike your country due to the proxy wars they have fought and the constant desire to prop up the industrial military complex via playing world police at the expense of civilians everywhere?

And your government's need to collect all data from everyone in the world, snoop on everyone's private conversations, break their encryption, deliberately weaken crypto standards, etc.?

The counter to this argument is that while the US flag can raise some hackles depending on where you're flying it its origins are noble, and it's stood for just as many good things as bad throughout its history.

You can't make the same claim about the Confederate flag.

 

[throAU]

The counter to this argument is that while the US flag can raise some hackles depending on where you're flying it its origins are noble, and it's stood for just as many good things as bad throughout its history.

You can't make the same claim about the Confederate flag.

The dukes of hazard was a good show and they had the confederate flag on their car.

That argument is pretty irrelevant as "noble" and "good" and "bad" are all flexible concepts and depend entirely on your point of view, and change throughout history.

As I said earlier, you can't have freedom of expression and then decide you want to suppress things you don't agree with.

You either have freedom of expression, or you don't.


For a nation that is all so often first to cry about freedom of speech, one would hope that you guys understand that.

 

[b0fh666]

they would, if they were true americans... true to their nation's founding father's principles, not this new political correctness fascists they are breeding these days

with all this hype one can think all southeners want to have slaves as of today... the horror...

meh

 

[Renzatic]

The dukes of hazard was a good show and they had the confederate flag on their car.

The Dukes of Hazard never stood as a symbol for an ethos or way of life. It was merely a good show.

That argument is pretty irrelevant as "noble" and "good" and "bad" are all flexible concepts and depend entirely on your point of view, and change throughout history.

Speaking from a Western point of view, you can't play the nebulous semantics card when you're talking about a flag representing a nation founded on the ideas of equality and justice for all (even if we haven't exactly lived up to our own stated standards then, nor have yet to do so entirely even today) vs. one that was founded on the notion that a state should be allowed to keep an entire group of people enslaved for mere economic convenience.

At no point in the Confederate flags history has it stood for anything but anything but a negative. It's almost always represent greater freedom for some at the direct expense of others. People have gone to great lengths to claim otherwise, but they're only able to do so by blithely ignoring the past.

As I said earlier, you can't have freedom of expression and then decide you want to suppress things you don't agree with.

You either have freedom of expression, or you don't.

For a nation that is all so often first to cry about freedom of speech, one would hope that you guys understand that.

Now this I can agree with you on.

 

[throAU]

The Dukes of Hazard never stood as a symbol for an ethos or way of life.

Neither does some guy's avatar on here.

Speaking from a Western point of view, you can't play the nebulous semantics card when you're talking about a flag representing a nation founded on the ideas of equality and justice for all (even if we haven't exactly lived up to our own stated standards then, nor have yet to do so entirely even today) vs. one that was founded on the notion that a state should be allowed to keep an entire group of people enslaved for mere economic convenience.

At no point in the Confederate flags history has it stood for anything but anything but a negative. It's almost always represent greater freedom for some at the direct expense of others. People have gone to great lengths to claim otherwise, but they're only able to do so by blithely ignoring the past.

Actions speak louder than words.

The point i was responding to was whether or not someone could be offended by the US flag. Given some of the atrocious acts carried out under it, I don't think there is any doubt what-so-ever that this is not just possible, but highly likely.

Saying "but the nation was founded on the principles of equality and stuff" is all well and good, however it's the actions carried out by the country that actually matter.

 

[Renzatic]

Neither does some guy's avatar on here.

So why are they using it?