'Constant Negativity' From Pro Users Led Apple to Develop Modular Mac Pro, Which May Not Ship Until 2019

[Count Blah]

What really worries me is this:

https://petapixel.com/2017/04/08/5660-mac-pro-crushed-photoshop-test-1530-pc-amd-ryzen/

Apple should respond. This is really outrageous. How low can Apple go?

Thanks for the link.
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Apple are changing approach, essentially starting again with the Mac Pro. There has been some indication Apple have actually been looking at this for about a year - testing a few approaches - and the only recently made a decision to go modular, is meant to apply to the decision on which option to take. So, we're probably 6-12 months into the product development cycle already.

Link?
[doublepost=1491696580][/doublepost]

Not really no, the Mac Pro is 4 years ish old now, and someone made a video showing the latest literally JUST released brand spanking new computer hardware can beat it....
That's called progression.

I see they also overclocked the Ryzen in that test too, pretty pointless test that. Not many professionals would overclocked their hardware.

The Ryzen beat it handily BEFORE overclocking. Overclocking just made it that much more of a beating. Also, Ryzen is fully open to overclocking, including tools software tool, and BIOS/motherboard tools to overclock with a few clicks. It's not like overclocking in years past.

Perhaps you should look into other technology, to see just how middling machines have overtaken Apple's biggest and baddest Mac.

 

[Theophil1971]

so in other words you have no need for a pro computer. Sounds like an iPad would be enough for you. I think you should stop drinking the coolaid and realize that this MacBook Pro is not sufficient for a segment of pro users. Just because it's okay for you does not mean it's okay for everyone else. Talk about pretentious

lol... what a ridiculous comment. You obviously don't read, or you fail to comprehend what you read. My post was the one saying that this MacBook Pro is not sufficient for a segment of pro users... I never said that it's great for everyone because it's ok for me. I said the opposite. My point was exactly to say that though this current Pro is great for many, many users (like myself), it clearly doesn't meet the needs of high-end pro-users who do, say, 4k video editing on the go. Apple is finally listening to them, and that's a good thing...
So in other words, I have no need for THAT kind of Pro computer, but I certainly have need of something more than an iPad. What a condescending thing to say... you do realize that there are lots and lots of use-cases in-between iPad user and professional video-editor, right?
Read and understand before posting next time.

 

[neversink]

I suspect that perhaps, just maybe, "MacBook Pro" sales in the period following the 2016 release broke records, because the 2015 refurbs were included in the "MacBook Pro" sales figures?

Shrug?

Planned obsolescence....

 

[iriejedi]

I can go to Fry's and build a state of the art computer in an afternoon... apple 5+ years to make a modular Mac Pro??? Are they using the STEM kids from pre-school in their factory now?

 

[clangers23]

They would have been better discontinuing the Mac Pro and announcing an intention to design a new model rather than trying to continue to sell four year old outdated technology with thermal limitations for ludicrous prices. I say four years but much of the architecture dates back to 2012.

Then again every $ counts as far as Tim and Phil are concerned.

 

[Obocop]

Apple, if you are indeed listening and reading forums such as this one, know that I'm still rocking an aluminium MP and my wife still clings to her 17" MBP. What does that tell you? We're both creative pros and have wanted to upgrade for years, there's just nothing Apple currently offers that seems attractive or wise for us.

P.S. The subtext to that was please re-release a 17" MBP. That would be a nice olive branch to the MBP (pro) community that was so peeved with your latest release.

 

[twa440]

Two to three years for product-development for something as complex as a Mac Pro is not at all out-of-line.

Thats BS, plain and simple, You could build a new state of the art PC in a day. All parts are readily available.
Dell does it every year, why can't they? They're to busy at this point making things look pretty so you don't notice your getting porked.
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So we are talking ~6% of overall Mac sales. Why not have a non cosmetic centric/design solution like a trashcan with a box attached?

Imagine how much money they could make and how much market share they would gain, if they actually gave people what they wanted.
As I said before, arrogance and greed will kill Apple.

 

[Obocop]

I agree that Tim Cook is probably a good CEO, but not what Apple needs to maintain its success. We need someone who is more driven, hands on, ambitious, and passionate about Apple.

As a result, products lines have too much overlap, are ambiguous, and aren't getting updated in a timely manner. Customers are jumping ship and looking for other solutions. Don't get fooled by stock as it's an indication of public perception.

The situation is getting dire, and their open apology is proof of this. They haven't even *started* the Mac pro and the rest of their product lines are long overdue for an update. With their resources and high profile, there is no excuse.

I agree with all that you said, but think that the reasons you listed point to Tim being a poor CEO. Don't get me wrong, I think he has some good qualities, such as his charity work etc. But I want someone less wooden or robotic, especially as the CEO of Apple has to be so publicly visible. I want someone a little more rock n roll, who has passion, charisma and foresight. That would get me excited in this company again. As Steve Jobs put it so eloquently in that video on why Xerox failed, you need good product people running the company, making the decisions, not marketing people (nor supply chain people IMO). You want people who understand the needs of the market, can identify subtle differences between good and bad products, and who appreciate the skilled craftsmanship that goes into making truly great products.

 

[twa440]

"Pros want a Touch Bar" ???? Have you ever visited the MPro forum before?

The touch bar is a useless gimmick.

 

[AZREOSpecialist]

STUPID!

I think most pro users would be happy if Apple brought back the previous Mac Pro tower. Apple already has that design. Just revive it and stuff it full of new, relevant components and everyone will be happy and nobody will have to wait until 20 frickin' 18. I mean if the new Mac Pro isn't shipping until 2018 what the hell is the point?

Who at Apple has been so asleep at the wheel so as to have not made this decision until now? The damn thing hasn't been updated in almost 4 years. Heads need to roll, starting at the top. At this point Dell could do a better job than Apple and get it to market sooner.

 

[ZapNZs]

Not really no, the Mac Pro is 4 years ish old now, and someone made a video showing the latest literally JUST released brand spanking new computer hardware can beat it....
That's called progression.

I see they also overclocked the Ryzen in that test too, pretty pointless test that. Not many professionals would overclocked their hardware.

I agree it is limited in value because it is comparing two very different systems that someone might not purchase for the same purposes.

A more fair comparison might be against a similarly priced workstation also suitable for mission-critical applications, in my personal opinion. However, the Mac Pro doesn't do very well here, either

For example, a Mac Pro with an 8-core Xeon, 64 GB of DDR3 RAM, 512 GB PCIe-AHCI SSD, and dual 6GB D700s vs. a Lenovo ThinkStation P710 with a 12-core Xeon, 96 GB of DDR4 RAM, 256 GB PCIe-NVMe SSD, and 8GB Quadro M4000 GPU, which would come to around the same price. When Apple releases the updated Mac Pro, they are going to be competing with these capable, reliable, and affordable Windows-based workstations IMO, and they are going to need to compete with them either on a specs, pricing, or specs + pricing plane.

 

[Abazigal]

Or they could have the best of both worlds and put keep the function keys and add the touch bar above it. It's not like there isn't room. Although I am not sure what they would put on it, then.

The whole point of the touch bar is precisely to serve as a more versatile row of function keys. Adding both would completely and utterly defeat the whole point.

 

[Count Blah]

The whole point of the touch bar is precisely to serve as a more versatile row of function keys. Adding both would completely and utterly defeat the whole point.

Removing the Escape key on a pro machine, utterly defeats the whole point as well. That and destroying touch typing are two pretty big strikes. Sure you could argue against touch typing on the rest of the Function keys, but you can't argue that the Escape key isn't touch typing 101 for a ton of pros.

 

[Abazigal]

Imagine how much money they could make and how much market share they would gain, if they actually gave people what they wanted.
As I said before, arrogance and greed will kill Apple.

Likely still not enough to recoup the costs of redesigning the Mac Pro and supporting it. If Apple does keep the Mac Pro around, it's really only to retain the ios app developers, who are crucial to the success if their mobile platforms, nothing more.

And then there's the whole matter of opportunity costs. Who is to say that the efforts invested in maintain a legacy Mac platform wouldn't have been better spent on more lucrative ventures?

I guess it's a necessary evil - lose money on the Mac Pro side to earn more money on the iOS side.

 

[ZapNZs]

Thats BS, plain and simple, You could build a new state of the art PC in a day. All parts are readily available.
Dell does it every year, why can't they? They're to busy at this point making things look pretty so you don't notice your getting porked.

Agreed.

Suggesting that two to three years from this point in time is NORMAL is laughable. It implies that Apple intended Users to be purchasing 6-7 year old technology at a price point as high as some automobiles, and did not seem to see a problem with that. For a company that was so adamant on pushing USB-C well before it was mature, dismissing modern ports as being "legacy technology", and loves talking about the future & how they are early adopters of new technology, that is plain comical.

If such development time is normal, then the person in charge of strategic planning needs to be fired. But Apple isn't going to hire stupid people. And I don't think this happened by random chance.

So this leaves a possible explanation, which is Apple had, for quite some time, intended to discontinue the Mac Pro entirely, and something changed their mind, and it changed their mind strongly enough to (in a twist that is very unusual for Apple) announce their intentions publicly. If they are this far away from a new design, and had no plans to update the current form factor's internals, then the Mac Pro must have been slated for the graveyard (because otherwise it means Apple intended Mac Pro buyers to be purchasing legacy-legacy-legacy technology at Rolls Royce pricing.)

 

[Abazigal]

Removing the Escape key on a pro machine, utterly defeats the whole point as well. That and destroying touch typing are two pretty big strikes. Sure you could argue against touch typing on the rest of the Function keys, but you can't argue that the Escape key isn't touch typing 101 for a ton of pros.

Here's the thing - I can see a fair amount of utility for the touchbar for the mass consumer market, who may not have committed every shortcut to memory like the "pros" have. For instance, tapping a single shortcut to create a new safari tab rather than pressing "cmd + T”. I am no pro and I use the escape key a great deal myself. The touchbar will likely require some time to get used to, but nothing I can't get behind.

The problem then comes when what might be good for millions of more casual macOS users is at odds with the needs of a far smaller (albeit way more vocal) group of "Pro" users. Who then do we listen to? Pro users are notoriously conservative and inflexible when it comes to accepting and adapting to change because they have the most invested in a particular workflow.

So this leaves a possible explanation, which is Apple had, for quite some time, intended to discontinue the Mac Pro entirely, and something changed their mind, and it changed their mind strongly enough to (in a twist that is very unusual for Apple) announce their intentions publicly. If they are this far away from a new design, and had no plans to update the current form factor's internals, then the Mac Pro must have been slated for the graveyard (because otherwise it means Apple intended Mac Pro buyers to be purchasing legacy-legacy-legacy technology at Rolls Royce pricing.)

If you ask me, Apple is increasingly pivoting towards the mobile aspect of the future (mobile, AR, wearables) and the biggest stumbling block in their path is having to maintain legacy Mac hardware (especially the Mac Pro) which I feel has little place in Apple's future.

My guess is that Apple had intended to drop the Mac Pro and fold its functionality into a high-end Mac Pro variant. I would argue that this would have been the right move in the long run, but Apple ultimately capitulated here because they feared losing pro users to the windows platform. That's all there is to it.

 

[sudo1996]

Apple's refurb store was sold out of 2015 rMBPs very quickly.
[doublepost=1491714952][/doublepost]

Here's the thing - I can see a fair amount of utility for the touchbar for the mass consumer market, who may not have committed every shortcut to memory like the "pros" have. For instance, tapping a single shortcut to create a new safari tab rather than pressing "cmd + T”. I am no pro and I use the escape key a great deal myself. The touchbar will likely require some time to get used to, but nothing I can't get behind.

Consumers know about cmd+T for tabs, and it's faster than the Touch Bar because you don't have to look at the keyboard to press it.
[doublepost=1491715034][/doublepost]

What really worries me is this:

https://petapixel.com/2017/04/08/5660-mac-pro-crushed-photoshop-test-1530-pc-amd-ryzen/

Apple should respond. This is really outrageous. How low can Apple go?

That test in particular isn't fair in terms of price comparison since the Mac Pro has pricey pro GPUs, PCIe SSDs, and ECC RAM, and it looks like he's put it against just a box with a Ryzen and everything else minimum spec.

But yeah, it's been left unimproved for too long, and new hardware beats it. In terms of CPU/RAM: An upgraded 2012 high-end Mac Pro can beat the 2013 high-end Mac Pro, and for a lot less money. And consumer-level machines (even the iMac) beat the low-end Mac Pro. In terms of GPU: Even for pro tasks, high-end gaming cards can beat the FirePro GPUs for less money.
[doublepost=1491715146][/doublepost]

The Ryzen beat it handily BEFORE overclocking. Overclocking just made it that much more of a beating. Also, Ryzen is fully open to overclocking, including tools software tool, and BIOS/motherboard tools to overclock with a few clicks. It's not like overclocking in years past.

Perhaps you should look into other technology, to see just how middling machines have overtaken Apple's biggest and baddest Mac.

Pros don't overclock. You can't tell your boss that you're unable to work because you burned up your machine trying to make it 20% faster, plus electricity costs can be a concern.
[doublepost=1491716109][/doublepost]

Removing the Escape key on a pro machine, utterly defeats the whole point as well. That and destroying touch typing are two pretty big strikes. Sure you could argue against touch typing on the rest of the Function keys, but you can't argue that the Escape key isn't touch typing 101 for a ton of pros.

Eh, I'm assuming you're thinking of Vim, and I bind j+j to escape anyway. But there are plenty of other flaws on that stupid new rMBP.

 

[Abazigal]

Apple's refurb store was sold out of 2015 rMBPs very quickly.

A knee-jerk reaction.

Eh, I'm assuming you're thinking of Vim, and I bind j+j to escape anyway. But there are plenty of other flaws on that stupid new rMBP.

That or just bind "escape" to the caps-lock key.

 

[DevNull0]

Here's the thing - I can see a fair amount of utility for the touchbar for the mass consumer market, who may not have committed every shortcut to memory like the "pros" have.

And those people can quite happily enjoy their iToys and MB-toys. Because, as Apple just found out the hard way, the toy-kiddies aren't going to drop three grand and up on a toy.

And your usual excessively condescending tone is getting worse here. . "committed every shortcut to memory". How about have a few commonly used keystrokes in muscle-memory?

The touchbar will likely require some time to get used to, but nothing I can't get behind.

Apple has yet to do anything to any product that you can't get behind.

The problem then comes when what might be good for millions of more casual macOS users is at odds with the needs of a far smaller (albeit way more vocal) group of "Pro" users. Who then do we listen to?

Well, every other computer company in the world, as well as Apple up until about late 2011, doesn't seem to have a problem making different products and different price points that appeal to different users. I guess a $750 billion company can't handle more than one product line at a time anymore.

If you ask me, Apple is increasingly pivoting towards the mobile aspect of the future

That's a trendy fashion space that could vanish overnight at a whim. As Blackberry or Motorola how betting the company on that market segment worked out for them.

OTOH, these vocal conservative "pro" users are in it for the long haul, which is why there is all this "constant negativity". We don't just switch on a whim. And we've got the message, we're leaving Apple, but we're not going to do it quickly or quietly like the iToy crowd does things. We don't want to leave Apple, we're being forced out. And we'll be laughing when the iToys go Blackberry as the fashion cycle continues.

My guess is that Apple had intended to drop the Mac Pro and fold its functionality into a high-end Mac Pro variant. I would argue that this would have been the right move in the long run, but Apple ultimately capitulated here because they feared losing pro users to the windows platform. That's all there is to it.

Apple needs the pro users a heck of a lot more than the pro users need Apple at this point. Apple is well under 20% of the global smartphone market right now, and if Apple wants to actively piss on all the devs, a lot are going to wonder why they should even bother releasing an iOS version anymore. And if all the best Apps are android focused, iOS is dead overnight.

And once they go off that cliff they are speeding towards, there is absolutely no way to come back. Just ask Blackberry. Remember how we made fun of BB for delaying OS10 for years while their company crashed. Sounds familiar with the length of time Apple is taking on pro hardware as the pros are leaving Apple.
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Apple's refurb store was sold out of 2015 rMBPs very quickly.

A knee-jerk reaction.

The 2015 rMBP is plain superior to the 2016 in every single way. Apple has more or less conceded that they screwed up the line Why is it so hard for you? Apple is not a religion. Timmy is not your personal saviour. The world won't end if you admit they made a mistake.
[doublepost=1491719973][/doublepost]

Who is to say that the efforts invested in maintain a legacy Mac platform wouldn't have been better spent on more lucrative ventures?

I guess it's a necessary evil - lose money on the Mac Pro side to earn more money on the iOS side.

Your logic is incomprehensible.

Apple sells about 20 million macs a year. They just said the pro is a single digit percentage of that. If that's 5%, its a million mac pros a year. Average price of $4,000 means they make $4 billion a year off Mac pros.....with a 3 year old model they admit missed the mark.

You think a 3 year old computer that still sells $4 billion a year at Apple's margins is a money losing necessary evil? You think a $4 billion a year high margin product is not worth the effort of keeping a bit more up to date?

And you think it's a "legacy Mac platform" when even Apple is aware it's the foundation of their entire ecosystem.

 

[Abazigal]

Apple has yet to do anything to any product that you can't get behind.

So being open-minded to change is a bad thing now?

Apple needs the pro users a heck of a lot more than the pro users need Apple at this point. Apple is well under 20% of the global smartphone market right now, and if Apple wants to actively piss on all the devs, a lot are going to wonder why they should even bother releasing an iOS version anymore. And if all the best Apps are android focused, iOS is dead overnight.

I would say it's more of a mutually beneficial relationship. Apple's minority market share belies the fact that 14% still represents a significant number of iOS devices sold in an absolute sense (more than 200 million iPhones sold last year). Many developers choose to code for iOS first or exclusively because there is good money to be made (relative to Android), so it's not like they aren't getting any benefits out of this partnership.

Do you seriously need a maxed out Mac Pro for app development?

 

[DevNull0]

So being open-minded to change is a bad thing now?

Open minded means analyzing facts. Not a fanatical level of blind devotion that would make any religious zealot question the intensity of their own faith.

Do you seriously need a maxed out Mac Pro for app development?

This is exactly my point in how you completely miss the boat every time. No, I don't need a maxed out Mac Pro. My needs are very modest, yet Apple utterly fails to meet them.

I need a machine capable of rendering 4k video well and reasonably quickly. I need a machine capable of driving multiple monitors well (and simply pushing out the pixels to show a mostly static GUI desktop doesn't count). Apple thinks stuttering while scrolling a webpage counts as driving a display well enough. I need a machine with a lot of internal storage (both SSD and spinning platters). Nothing says pro quite like a spaghetti tangle of cables and boxes strewn around your computer, right? I need a decent selection of modern and up to date ports. Again, spaghetti tangles of dongles are extra work, extra points of failure, and look like crap.
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I would say it's more of a mutually beneficial relationship. Apple's minority market share belies the fact that 14% still represents a significant number of iOS devices sold in an absolute sense.

So a 14% market share for Apple is significant enough that you think the Devs need apple.

Yet 5-10% of macs being mac pros worth $4-10 billion in annual revenue is not enough to recoup the cost of supporting the product line.

Your kind of "open mindedness" truly is one of a kind.

 

[Abazigal]

So a 14% market share for Apple is significant enough that you think the Devs need apple.

The ios App Store takes in more revenue than google play store despite its smaller market share.

People don't care about which platform has the greater market share but which has the larger usage share.

Yet 5-10% of macs being mac pros worth $4-10 billion in annual revenue is not enough to recoup the cost of supporting the product line.

Your kind of "open mindedness" truly is one of a kind.

5-10%?

Try 1-2% of total Mac users.

We are looking at ~ .2% of total Apple users, which translates to about 250,000 Mac Pro units sold a year. That's about 2 billion in revenue. Deduct the costs and profits is likely way less. Likely break-even at best.

You are asking Apple to continue supporting a product which likely brings them next to zero income and you wonder why they aren't all that enthusiastic about keeping it updated on a timely basis?

 

[DevNull0]

Try 1-2% of total Mac users.

Citation needed. You're resorting to making up "facts" now.

We are looking at ~ .2% of total Apple users, which translates to about 250,000 Mac Pro units sold a year. That's about 2 billion in revenue. Deduct the costs and profits is likely way less. Likely break-even at best.

Even with your artificially pessimistic numbers, if Apple can make $2 billion a year in revenue on a computer they haven't updated in 3 years and still not make a profit after design costs, then Timmy must be the most incompetent person in America. He's not, and the Mac Pro is a big money maker. Even with your numbers.

You are asking Apple to continue supporting a product which likely brings them next to zero income and you wonder why they aren't all that enthusiastic about keeping it updated on a timely basis?

You are making up facts, pretending a lucrative product makes next to nothing and should therefore be discontinued.

The one thing we know for sure is that devs make apps. Without Apps, iOS is dead. So without devs in the Apple eco system, Apple is dead. So Apple driving devs away is the fastest way to corporate suicide there is.

 

[Abazigal]

@DevNull0 I am basing my numbers off a report by Aboveavalon. It's hidden behind a paywall, so I can't provide a copy of the article in its entirety, but here's a screenshot of the pertinent points.

In a nutshell, the move is an effort by Apple to prevent any possible exodus of app developers to Windows, nothing more. Apple's intent was to consolidate around 2 Mac models - the MacBook (pro) and iMac (which make up the bulk of their sales), while retiring the Mac mini and Mac Pro.

 

[DevNull0]

@DevNull0 I am basing my numbers off a report by Aboveavalon. It's hidden behind a paywall, so I can't provide a copy of the article in its entirety, but here's a screenshot of the pertinent points.

Interesting site. Who is talking in those points though? They are citing the same "single digit" figure we all have. Why does their 1-2% figure have any merit when it is simply an unknown (from your image) person speculating off the same data we all have? But anyway, even your $2 billion is a significant market for a machine with no R&D spending for 3 years.

Something else interesting is from those figures 4% *all* Apple users are considered pro. I wouldn't have thought it was that high, and it makes it all the more surprising that Apple has been trying so hard to drive them away, especially when they are the core foundation of the eco-system. These are users who will drop $1600 to go to a conference to hear about Apple software. These are much more valuable customers than someone who will buy a $1000 phone every year or two and maybe a watch or aTV once in a while. These are users who's professional lives live and die by Apple and so have to be the most ardent supports of Apple. Yet Apple seems to want to toss them to curb.

In a nutshell, the move is an effort by Apple to prevent any possible exodus of app developers to Windows, nothing more. Apple's intent was to consolidate around 2 Mac models - the MacBook (pro) and iMac (which make up the bulk of their sales), while retiring the Mac mini and Mac Pro.

The exodus has been going on for years, since before the trashcan came out (hence Phil's infamously innovative ass comment). Apple needs to do whatever they can to keep the devs they have left.

From your link, the pro users prefer a notebook anyway. That does describe me (because as I said I don't need a maxed out mac pro). But a gimped machine with a torture device instead of a keyboard, no mag safe, no modern ports, an emoji bar, and a hugely boosted price tag, feels like nothing more than a giant middle finger from Timmy and Phil.

I want to buy a MBP very badly, I've owned several over the years starting with a 1999 Powerbook G3 Wallstreet. But the emojibook is certainly not a MBP in any way I would define it. And judging by the comments ever since the Apple released it as well as Apple's current comments, I am very much in the majority among MBP users.

Every mac I've ever owned before has been absolutely better than the one before it as well as cheaper in real dollars. This new MBP is inferior to the 2015 as well as much more expensive.