Not only that, new features were added to Objective-C and AppKit according to some of this week's videos.
Craig Federighi and Greg Joswiak Discuss Apple Silicon Transition, Lack of Boot Camp Support, and More
- Thread starter MacRumors
- Start date
- Sort by reaction score
theroaringbadger
macrumors member
Ok. This community really needs to understand something. Just because Apple never confirmed virtualization doesn’t mean they are not already working with virtualization software companies and Microsoft to make this happen. This is what they do. They don’t want to make any promises. And why would they even want to? This community no offence is full of people who feel entitled to know everything about Apple. Like people need to calm the F out as Starlord would say. The arm transition has just begun and you have people moaning because Apple isn’t telling you everything and they don’t have a timeline for windows. They probably just don’t know. But even if they don’t, you could at least wait. This whole community’s full of a loud minority who think they deserve to know everything. What’s the point in speculating? It just happened. Like chill everyone. Why can’t this community be hopeful and optimistic? All I hear is bashing because big bad Apple is keeping you in the dark. Calm down.
hopefully we can have a respectful discussion for now on rather than dealing with people expressing hurt and anger for being left in the dark.
rp2011
macrumors 68030
The thing that stands out so starkly is that it seemed everyone was so complacent about the chips Intel was schlepping that only Apple seemingly ever bothered in filing complaints about the chips they were shipping. Apple was seeing errors left and right.
File error reports and then what? None of them had anywhere to turn to. Well, now that AMD is besting Intel there is.
But THIS is the reason we NEED competition.
The sad truth is that this is an industry where one not only needs huge amounts of money, but a client with a big enough ecosystem that could sustain it even if no one else would. Apple was the rare company with the money AND market share to sustain the custom non Intel silicon.
No one else really had any recourse OR skin in the game to even bother in submitting error reports.
DEll? HP? Lenovo? They don’t care, they just want to ship whatever new thing Intel was schlepping and keeping the business model moving.
File error reports and then what? None of them had anywhere to turn to. Well, now that AMD is besting Intel there is.
But THIS is the reason we NEED competition.
The sad truth is that this is an industry where one not only needs huge amounts of money, but a client with a big enough ecosystem that could sustain it even if no one else would. Apple was the rare company with the money AND market share to sustain the custom non Intel silicon.
No one else really had any recourse OR skin in the game to even bother in submitting error reports.
DEll? HP? Lenovo? They don’t care, they just want to ship whatever new thing Intel was schlepping and keeping the business model moving.
Last edited:
Unregistered 4U
macrumors G4
And, their users are already enjoying purpose built mobile processors that are years ahead of all the competition. Let’s not forget that the Apple Watch has seen updated CPU’s in the same time that Qualcomm just wasn’t interested in releasing any similar processors for their customers (maybe because their customers weren’t interested and conceding the market??)
PC’s just added a bigger plastic frame, put in bigger batteries and used desktop memory. And they weren’t concerned about doing so because they all knew their competition was doing the same
You are exactly correct. Going to Arm will hardly be noticed by 99% of Mac users. Most people are only doing light web browsing, Youtube, Instagram and maybe the Office suite.
But for anyone who edits media (video with Final Cut or Music with Logic) or does any kind of engineering work with CAD or needs to runs a Windows app in a virtual machine. For all these people this is the end of the line Macs. I suggest moving to Linux (Run Windows in a virtual machine under Linux if you must)
I bet that all those people who bought a $10,000 Mac Pro are feeling stupid now. Their expensive Mac is a "dead end"
Remember when Apple dropped Aperture? That was the first sign that Apple was dropping its professional user base. Now they will drop Final Cut and Logic. Just like they did with Aperture, Apple will claim to support it "forever" until the day they announce its discontinuation.
Moving to Linux is actually easier than moving to Windows. macOS and Linux are both actually just different versions of UNIX.
and how many of these gaming developers are currently using Macs, which are, according to said gaming developers, notoriously bad for gaming?
[automerge]1593148106[/automerge]
Unless Apple provides an upgrade path. There’s no way Apple didn’t know the transition was coming when they designed the Mac Pro. Of course they have a plan for how to upgrade it. Non-upgradability of the trashcan is the sole reason the new Mac Pro even exists.
Don’t forget, the Mac Arm chips will not be simply iPad chips, not even new iPad chips (EDIT: Some lower end Macs might). They clearly stated the Macs will be using chips designed specifically for the Mac. Noone has even attempted to make a desktop grade ARM CPU yet. Like Craig said in the interview, what you see with the DTK is how Big Sur runs on ARM when their chip team “is not even trying. They’re gonna be trying!”
I think the world will be baffled when we see real world performance of the actual hardware. Intel software will be dinosaur’ed.
Last edited:
Nope, not exempt at all, just that you are using the wrong business model. They are not building commodity chips, but specialized chips that meet their own needs and give them a competitive advantage. They include many subsystems for use with software they have developed. For example their Neural Engine is tightly coupled with CoreML, and their compression hardware supports their compression software. So while it will provide a great advantage in their systems, others would not get the same advantage.
Given what we have seen in the mobile phone space you a likely to be quite wrong. In the mobile space, their chips have consistently been 1-3 years ahead of their competition, for raw benchmarks, but even more when one looks at full system specs.
If by “integration” you mean that they will gain much more from their custom SoC than the CPU by itself would indicate, you are correct. They are banking on that system integration to gain even more from their custom chips, but not only have they not settled for “good enough” (unless you mean “far superior to the competition”), even their cheapest current phone (the iPhone SE) is either on par or faster than every currently shipping Android phone at a low price point.
I have no idea what you mean “hasn’t actually changed materially” given that there will be almost nothing in common between the current Intel based systems and the new Apple Silicon based machines. If you do not think that Apple will make sure that everyone knows that these machines are completely new and totally designed by Apple, you are very confused. Count on Apple to tout their improved performance, lower power, and custom features as part of their launch campaign.
No, your first presumption is just wrong. Broadcom, Qualcomm, Intel and AMD all have to sell generic CPUs and provide reference designs for system builders. Apple gains by having a higher value system that cannot be easily duplicated. Based on what we have seen in the mobile space, your second is likely to be wrong on performance, and ignores all the other benefits even if they were just on par for CPU performance (things like the Neural Engine, hardware compression, and security features). Adding iOS/iPadOS alone is a tremendous advantage.
This is a two year old chip and has already been benchmarked many times. If you think that their release system will exceed this performance substantially, you have not been paying attention to their Year over Year performance gains.
BillyBobBongo
macrumors 68030
Well the microphone that the guys at Apple are using is a Shure SM7b. It's a legendary (dynamic) microphone, but it's gain hungry. If you consider using one on your desk, with a consumer grade digital interface, you will need something like a Fethead or a Cloud Lifter to get it to acceptable levels.
The Scarlett Solo 2i2 is one of the most common digital interfaces (I use one myself) although I've also heard good things about the MOTU M2.
Dynamic mics (the other sort is the condenser mic) have better sound rejection and I use one (RODE Procaster) on my desk. My office isn't sound treated, and I live in an old house, so if I use a condenser mic my wife who is in a meeting in another room can be heard.
I would imagine that Apple is running the show, using broadcast level equipment, here and Gruber is the guest on the remote location, rather than the other way around.
Hope some of this has been of help to you.
UnusedLoginID
macrumors 6502
You obviously haven’t used a Mac or an iPhone in the past 8 years or so, otherwise you would know you don’t need to BUY Dragon software because it’s been embedded in the OS for years! As I’m typing this, there is the mike icon on the lower right of the keyboard that I can invoke for speech recognition.
Maybe you should buy Apple products sometimes and you’d be surprised at everything that’s included like dictation, office software, powerful movie creation, photo editing, music tools, video conferencing software, measurement tool, compass/altitude, and more… plus you can switch language at will.
cmaier
Suspended
Also, who are these “companies that want to get rid of typists?”
EXACTLY!I'm pretty sure Gruber's not hurting for money.
johngwheeler
macrumors 6502a
why not just use cloud based Windows VMs? They run very well for development tasks. Some services are even optimized for gaming.
[automerge]1593152749[/automerge]
You can get very decent broadcast quality video with most consumer grade DSLRs or mirrorless camera that can output HDMI to a small video mixer like this one: https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/au/products/atemmini (c $300), and a reasonable shotgun or lavalier mic ($100 and up) either directly into the camera or (better) via an audio interface ($100 for entry level). You really don't need more to live stream in full HD from a bedroom / office studio. Possibly more important are suitable lights and some knowledge of how to use them!
You could probably achieve the quality you saw with a $1500-2000 budget.
Sure, the sky is the limit if you want to all out with 4K broadcast on super-expensive cinema cameras and $2000 mics and mixers.
Last edited:
malkovich87
Suspended
Sure, but Apple Silicon is not your standard ARM architecture. It‘s an ARM processor, but all the additional chips have nothing to do with that and won‘t run anything but Mac OS, iPad OS, TV OS and iOS.
Otherwise you could already run windows on iPads.
[automerge]1593153127[/automerge]
Yeah, must be extremely easy as it‘s taken Adobe close to a year to get a working demo of Photoshop ready for the keynote. And Adobe already has a dumbed-down version of Photoshop for ARM running on the iPad Pros.
[automerge]1593153273[/automerge]
It‘ll certainly be possible to emulate an x86 processor on top of ARM - but the current generation of chips is drastically too slow to handle anything like Windows 10 on top of MacOS. It‘ll take years until the SoCs are fast enough to achieve this. For all those who depend on Windows (be it through Bootcamp or Parallels) for work (myself included): you‘ll have to wait until the 2nd or 3rd generation of hardware.
[automerge]1593153549[/automerge]
certainly - it‘s just that current gen ARM chips are far behind Intel processors in raw calculation power. They might seem faster for some applications because Apple uses a plethora of support chips to run specific MacOS (iOS, iPad OS etc.) tasks, but that‘s not going to help with running something like Windows 10 on top of another operating system.
You can see how fast desktop and laptop-grade ARM processors are with Microsoft‘s own Surface X. That machine is slow as molasses running Windows, just imagine how it‘ll „fly„ running Windows on top of MacOS on a similar chip.
The switch to Apple Silicon is great if you only need Apple products. They‘ll fly due to the support chips.
Last edited:
It maybe ok for the layman, but it's useless for dictating in medical charts. The MacOS version of dragon medical is also pretty poor compared to the Windows version which is updated more often.
This is a joke, not usable at all.
There is no way to implement a special, in our case medical, vocabulary.
This "embeded" crap is, may be, good for a housemaid (nothing against housemaids), but not if you have to work with it as a professional
Belief me, we use OsiriX MD (an OSX application) to review medical images and Dragon on a Parallels VM to dictat the reports in day to day work.
We will replace OsiriX MD with a Windows app when the next of our Macs is going to hell.
As we did it with several of our Macs / the XServe in the past.
Other than the fact that they are will be faster, have better battery life, run cooler (possibly without fans) and now support iOS/iPadOS software natively, you might be right.
First, are you also convinced that Apple Silicon will amplify the 5G signal and help Bill Gates pinpoint the implanted chips? Also, if media and CAD are only 1% of customers, why would Apple care?
Now to unpack your statements:
The top four video editing software packages are Avid, DaVinci Resolve, Final Cut Pro and Premiere. All four run natively on macOS, support Metal (in fact default to it). Final Cut Pro is Mac only. Only one of them runs under Linux and the owner of that company (Grant Petty of Blackmagic Design) is a huge Mac fan and does all this demos on a Mac. That you suggest running Linux for those users leads me to question how much you understand about that market.
For CAD software, AutoCAD and ArchiCad both support Catalina and Metal. Vectorworks supports Catalina, but I have not yet confirmed it supports Metal.
Why would any of these companies who have already moved their products to Apple’s tool chain, Metal and Catalina drop support now?
I cannot speak for all of them, but I can speak for a few (my B/F among them), and no, none of them feel stupid. Most expected this transition sooner or later. My B/F fully expects to have gained enough productivity from his Mac Pro to have justified the cost by sometime late August or Early September. Covid-10 pushed that up (he used to work in some of his clients’ offices on occasion, now it is all at home and he gets to bill for use of his gear). His previous machine was an iMac Pro, and the one before that was a trash can. He has never needed more than 12 months to justify any of these machine. I expect that Apple will continue to support the machine for at least two more years, so even if one was depreciating it and not expensing it, it will have been fully amortized long before it stops being supported.
You mean that product for the very small professional photography market that was never very well received and never gained much market share? Yep. I remember. It would be hard to forget it given how often it gets mentioned on here.
By sign do you mean that if you look at the Aperture discontinuation press release upside down in a mirror, one can read the discontinuation plan for Final Cut Pro and Logic X? Given how much Apple has spent over they last years on Final Gut Pro X and Logic X, including one to two major releases a year, why would they even consider it?
Why? What possible benefit would they gain?
I will try to write a response to this line once I stop laughing (that may be a few days).
Last edited:
SocialKonstruct
macrumors regular
We have 4-5 students here at the EAE department who are doing their dev work on Macs. No kidding... It's possible but just not commonplace.
[automerge]1593161490[/automerge]
Apple has targeted casual gamers with Arcade but they aren't courting most gamers who are into triple A titles which is worlds apart.
loekf
macrumors 6502a
I suspect Hairforce One (aka Craig) is secretely a Twitch streamer with this huge mic in his office.
rp2011
macrumors 68030
PC’s just added a bigger plastic frame, put in bigger batteries and used desktop memory. And they weren’t concerned about doing so because they all knew their competition was doing the same
And this year alone we’ve had a few new serious security flaws to add to the list that includes Meltdown, Spectre, SMT/Hyper
hlfway2anywhere
Cancelled
Just chiming in here because Alan said most of what i'm thinking already but I wanted to add that Apple demonstrated Final Cut on the A12Z processor in the keynote, and said that both FC and Logic Pro were already working on Apple Silicon. Having a conversation about apple abandoning pro apps in the context of them literally announcing updated versions to support next generation Macs is pretty asinine.
loby
macrumors 68000
The thing that has not been mentioned is that "maybe" Windows is going to work to port something to their Apple Silicone and Apple knows it already. Maybe that is why they are not talking about it?
Last edited:
It is important to distinguish between emulation and virtualization.
Virtualization divides a host into different logical hosts but executes unmodified CPU instructions (e.g., VMware, VirtualBox, Parallels)
Emulation translates instructions from one architecture to another (e.g. Rosetta 2). Running an x86-64 bit version of Windows on ARM requires emulation.
The inability to emulate Windows on ARM-based Macs is the first indicator delimiting the performance of x86 programs on [edit: ARM-based Macs using] Rosetta 2. Don't expect BootCamp or emulation of any x86-64-based OS.
Virtualization divides a host into different logical hosts but executes unmodified CPU instructions (e.g., VMware, VirtualBox, Parallels)
Emulation translates instructions from one architecture to another (e.g. Rosetta 2). Running an x86-64 bit version of Windows on ARM requires emulation.
The inability to emulate Windows on ARM-based Macs is the first indicator delimiting the performance of x86 programs on [edit: ARM-based Macs using] Rosetta 2. Don't expect BootCamp or emulation of any x86-64-based OS.
Daring Fireball's John Gruber typically hosts a live episode of his The Talk Show podcast during the week of WWDC, featuring high-level Apple executives to dig further into some of the details on Apple's major announcements, and while the all-online format of this year's conference changed things up a bit, Gruber was still able to get Craig Federighi and Greg Joswiak to participate in a video podcast.
The 90-minute discussion touched on a number of topics, including a brief statement from Joswiak on Apple's relationship with developers in light of recent concerns sparked by the "Hey" email app controversy, a thorough dive into Apple's perspectives on macOS Big Sur and the Apple Silicon transition, and briefer tidbits on iPadOS and Apple Pencil, iOS 14, and privacy.
Some of the more interesting bits of the discussion include thoughts on all of the different ways Apple has now for developers to build Mac apps, including Catalyst, UIKit, AppKit, and SwiftUI, as well as Apple's emphasis on virtualization with Boot Camp going away for Apple Silicon-based Macs.
While avoiding direct mention of Windows, Federighi acknowledges that you won't be able to boot directly into x86 operating systems on these Macs. As it stands, Windows can't be directly supported on the Arm-based chips of Apple Silicon via virtualization, but Federighi made clear that Apple is well aware of the situation, without tipping his hand on what developments may appear on that front in the coming months.
Article Link: Craig Federighi and Greg Joswiak Discuss Apple Silicon Transition, Lack of Boot Camp Support, and More
