I agree. I imagine a super thin iOS clam shell device with a touchscreen keyboard that adapts while using different apps, similar to the Touch Bar.
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Craig Federighi Talks Bringing iOS Apps to macOS, Reiterates No Plans for Touchscreen Macs
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I agree. I imagine a super thin iOS clam shell device with a touchscreen keyboard that adapts while using different apps, similar to the Touch Bar.
You and I must have completely different work needs. There’s maybe 20% of my work I’d feel comfortable doing on an iPad. Spreadsheets are a nightmare on iOS. Even typing emails becomes tiring an fatiguing after a very short while holding up the iPad and thumb typing. The new MacBook Pros are so light I’d much rather carry one of those for work when I travel than the far more limited iPad. When I travel on vacation, I only take my iPad as I’m not planning on doing much working, or even typing, and even then, when the occasional emergency crops up, I start looking for an actual computer as I dread doing any serious work on an iPad. Heck, sometimes I’ll grab my MacBook when I know I’m going to be doing a lot of typing, or a certain kind of web browsing —like forums, because I know it’ll be so much easier. And I can do it lying down on the couch, without having to go find my iPad keyboard and move to a table to set it all up.
As for touching the screen on a Mac, I wouldn’t want to do it constantly, but there are times I wish I could instead of using the keyboard, or trackpad. Nothing beats direct manipulation in some cases, and I’d appreciate the option. I can’t imagine what a pain it would be to be forced to touch the iPad screen constantly while trying to use it with a keyboard. I wouldn’t want that experience on the Mac either. But the option to perform some tasks on the Mac display would be great.
Totally understandable, definitely not for everyone. I use the smart keyboard at my desk and then pop it off when I am working with team members across the office, reviewing performance documents, spreadsheets, or sharing presentations to our Apple TV. I do miss macOS a bit, but it's a bit overkill for my needs. In regards to the touch screen Mac, I can see some use cases making sense, but I think they would need to make some major changes to the OS, which may alienate those who like macOS as it is. One platform for point and click, one for touch, makes sense to me. In the end, it's great we have choices, even from competition.
Touch options would have to implemented within the software for the specific touchable aspects a developer wants to enable. Perhaps that’s Apples issue, they don’t want a partial solution, they want everything touchable on a touch interface so as not to confuse the customer. But it would seem Apple is forcing the issue somewhat by pushing apps developed for touch onto the Mac platform, thus guaranteeing when they allow touch displays on the Mac, as most of the iOS apps with be optimized for them, and customers will have to go out of their way to access the non-optimized app, in much the same way a user must go out of their way to load a standard web page over the auto-loaded mobile page on iOS. If a customer bypasses the touch UI, for a more advanced version which may not be fully compatible with touch, they’ve made the conscious choice to do so and must deal with the results.
I'm not afraid because Apple already "struggles " to give out a macbook pro 13 with a quad core ,i'm relieved they are not trying something more complex like a touch screen display ,i wonder which kind of migraines gives them the "project star" we heard of not to mention the new modular mac pro.I'm little bit provocative i know but really...we have mac mini and expensive mac pro both outdated but still on their site and an Air with that display...
Yea I would agree. Apple doesn’t want a compromised experience like Microsoft. I think the end goal of moving iOS apps to the Mac is just about increasing the number of quality apps in the Mac App Store. This is a big reason I moved on from macOS, the quality and number of apps. I don’t think these will be direct ports of touch first apps with no modification either. I think a lot of the interface elements will be automatically changed to be point and click friendly. That’s what Craig Federighi mentioned when he said a lot of the work for porting apps will be done automatically.
I'll accept that when you show me a single Windows laptop that has a trackpad anywhere near as good as Apple's. There isn't one.
So the point stands... touch screen exists on Windows laptops because there isn't a better way to do it.
Wow... O..K...
It's not that the trackpad has to be AS GOOD as Apple's current monstrosity. But from everything I've used they are damn close. At least good enough to operate a scroll bar without having to touch the screen..
Gestures exist on Windows machines. Oh look... scrolling with a two finger drag. Pinch to zoom.. Three finger swipe right to switch apps.. Three finger swipe down / up to view desktop / open apps.
Mayhaps you need to educate yourself a touch (snigger) more before firing off these kinda statements cause it makes you look a tad foolish.
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Well thankfully I, but more importantly to me, Apple disagree with you. So we won't see touch screen laptops. It's hilarious how people go on about wanting "Pro" MacBooks on here but then want touch screens, because nothing screams professional when you've got finger prints all over your colour grading work...
Agree on Apple's monstrosity. That thing is way too big, and does too much by default that the new user just gets confused. Similar to the shocker Magic Mouse with its trigger-happy scrolling due to rubbish ergonomics, and of course 3d touch or whatever it is now called in iOS. Keeping it simple worked so well for so long.
My Dell Inspiron 2-in-1 trackpad I would definitely rate as better than Apple's offerings. It handles all of the same gestures straight through Windows 10 without being overly complicated or overly large. I can keyboard without its getting in the way. The Latitude ones are shocking, sure. The Surface Laptop ones work pretty well from what I have seen … and I should really go check on a Surface Book one especially if thinking that is the way I might go next lol.
"Pro" in the Mac nomenclature used to be mainly about options and expandability, which is what pros want. As many different ports as they can fit, greater upgrade options for RAM, hard drive, etc. And touchscreens are part of that, hence the iPad Pro and its significant use for professional work especially in the art space, whether with fingers or the pen, even though we know what they used to say about the pen thing....
Now they only sport one type of port and don't offer the expandability of RAM or storage that others do. Well, they do offer really large SSDs if you want to double the price of the machine, but yeah. Options are out, creativity is out, desirability is out
. Dongles are in though, the new expandability but without all of the convenience.
I'll let you know about the Surface Book 2 trackpad in a weeks time (if they are in stock when I get back to London).
Original Surface Book trackpad has been pretty awesome (I generally compare everything to the gold standard of puters - the MacBook Air).
Exactly. Which is why I barely use ASK with my iPad Pro (also the fatigue pops up there too for me). Just cannot wrap my brain around shifting between the ASK and touch. Now touch and the Pencil? That's different and doable.
Kick it up a notch Craig
I think the best way to approach that, is "Windows track-pads/keyboards may not last as long" in terms of durability. "feel" etc.
Unless you are prepared to pay about the same price as Apple's stuff, (which if you are gonna do that may as well get an Apple Mac)
I think the best way to approach that, is "Windows track-pads/keyboards may not last as long" in terms of durability. "feel" etc.
Unless you are prepared to pay about the same price as Apple's stuff, (which if you are gonna do that may as well get an Apple Mac)
That's Lego AR demo is just begging for a pair of AR glasses.
That's really what this foray into AR is about. Seeding the ground for AR support for a future pair of Apple Glasses.
"Pro" in the Mac nomenclature used to be mainly about options and expandability, which is what pros want. As many different ports as they can fit, greater upgrade options for RAM, hard drive, etc. And touchscreens are part of that, hence the iPad Pro and its significant use for professional work especially in the art space, whether with fingers or the pen, even though we know what they used to say about the pen thing....
Now they only sport one type of port and don't offer the expandability of RAM or storage that others do. Well, they do offer really large SSDs if you want to double the price of the machine, but yeah. Options are out, creativity is out, desirability is out
Most of what you said is nonsense, but I haven't got the energy to counter this ignorant cliched opinion about dongles and ports anymore, it's boring.
I don't see why he has an ignorant cliched opinion.
You want to tell me I don't need a dongle/adapter if I want to plug in an USB Stick from a friend?
Or if I want to share my screen on a TV ?
Or if I want to import my GoPro SD-Cards ?
I'm just a consumer and still need adapters everyday. Annoying. Really annoying.
:-/
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You are a teacher. Your view of this topic is a bit skewed I think. Not trying to take a way the value of what you do which is a very important career, but its hardly representative of what business users need. I work for a global software company and travel the world interacting with our customers... both commercial companies and government agencies.
I bought a Surface Pro with my own funds to replace my company provided enterprise grade laptop, and my Mac & iPad. In my experience, everything you said there is completely incorrect. I would certainly not have done that if it didn't give me tremendous value.
"form factor ill suited for use on any surface other than a table" - completely incorrect. I use the Surface Pro on planes, in my lap sitting on the sofa, at my desk (connected to a dock w/ 4k display and peripherals), by the pool, in my truck, sitting in the airport. I've used it with and without its keyboard in all these settings and more. The Surface Pro (and its clones) is physically different than a clamshell laptop, but no more or less usable in any scenario its needed.
"isn't designed for on the move computing the same way iOS is" - agree that its not the same way as iOS. From my perspective, I'm so glad that's the case. I don't want to have to learn and deal with gimped versions of all the software I use. My guess is that you have never used one of these long enough to learn how to use it... it takes time to learn a new OS... keyboard shortcuts, gestures, etc.. Windows 10 compares more to MacOS than iOS. Your needs are served with (your words) big iPhone. For many information workers (me included), a lot more function than a big iPhone is needed. I am "on the move" around the world... you are "on the move" around the school. For my uses, I'm able to move around with it quite easily. In fact, if any use includes a physical keyboard, the Surface Pro is much more stable and portable than an iPad with the hokey keyboard afterthought. The kickstand gives such great versatility.
Everyone's needs are different... glad the iPad works for you. But for a vast number of people, that's simply not the case.
Or maybe... stay with me here... maybe people have different opinions, and calling someone foolish for them is foolish in and of itself.Wow... O..K...
It's not that the trackpad has to be AS GOOD as Apple's current monstrosity. But from everything I've used they are damn close. At least good enough to operate a scroll bar without having to touch the screen..
Gestures exist on Windows machines. Oh look... scrolling with a two finger drag. Pinch to zoom.. Three finger swipe right to switch apps.. Three finger swipe down / up to view desktop / open apps.
Mayhaps you need to educate yourself a touch (snigger) more before firing off these kinda statements cause it makes you look a tad foolish.
Your hostility and insults are not necessary.
I have used a LOT of Windows trackpads. You don't know a thing about me, so don't assume my opinions are based on inexperience. I have never come across one that feels as good as Apple's and supports as many features with multitouch. Never once. If you want to point me in that direction, I'll gladly try it out and admit I'm wrong.
And calling Apple's a "monstrosity" is just insane to me. They set the bar a long time ago and continue to do so.
Uh huh..
It's not about your differing opinion.. You stated as fact that the ONLY reason windows machines had touch screens was due to that being the ONLY way to interact due to the trackpads (existing features) being so poor..
Now unless you have tried EVERY iteration of windows trackpads on the market in every configuration, that's a bit of a bold and daft statement..
Nowt to do with opinions on your side mate.. Just a dumb thing to say and I couldn't let it fly, hence my fix to your original post..
Saying it makes you look foolish is just that.. Not insulting you or yours personally and no offence meant.
My view on the mac trackpad being a monstrosity IS my opinion and I have tried it on the only machines that offer that trackpad. However I also said that no windows trackpads are as good as Apple's offerings but they come damn close in some cases (Surface Book for comparison) and at least good enough to use gestures with ease.
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I will agree that Apple makes nice trackpads, but like many things some of it comes to taste. I'm come to find the click pressure to be a bit much for my taste. That said, I find the current current trackpad on my Surface Pro to be quite acceptable. The one my company issued Dell laptop is not horrible, but the worst of the 3. Like many things on this forum, people seem to have to go to absolute extremes when in reality things are not that different between many competing products. Its not like the old days when trackpads were horrible to use.
Aren't our experiences with devices skewed by factors such as our choice of profession?
That's my point. The value of 2-in-1 convertibles (and the outright dismissal of iPads as a legitimate productivity machine) seems to revolve very heavily around their ability to run legacy desktop software (namely Excel, but also some more specialise programs), and using them more as PCs than tablets.
Yes, the needs of business users matter, but they don't make up the entirety of users' needs.
That just goes to show that different people use different products differently, and derive varying amounts of utility from them.
I myself used my own money to install an Apple TV in my classroom (I have 2 at my desk) and an iPad Pro, precisely because they give me tremendous value for the work that I do. I didn't get a windows convertible because they didn't fit my needs very well.
I find there is more to a tablet than just the form factor. My iPad Pro is thinner, lighter, runs optimised tablet apps and I am probably just more comfortable interacting with iOS over macOS or Windows.
*On a side note, can you recommend any decent pdf annotating apps for windows? That's the one issue I still have with my school-issued HP convertible. If it isn't too expensive, I could probably make a case for my school's IT dept to make a bulk purchase. On the iPad, it's largely a solved issue with Notability and PDF expert.
I have a keys-to-go Logitech keyboard for times when I need to do heavy typing on my iPad, but by and large, I get by just fine on my iPad Pro.
Just the other day, I was at a workshop and needed to create a sample lesson plan using some provided material. I used my iPad to scan them into pdf documents and annotated on them using my Apple Pencil, then presented from it using the vga adaptor.
I guess you are right in that I have used my iPad for so long that I have largely gotten so used to its strengths (and resolved whatever shortcomings I may have had with it), to the point where using a desktop OS now seems more archaic and cumbersome in comparison.
I question just how "vast" this group of people is, or if we are simply looking at a small but extremely vocal group of users here at Macrumours skewing the numbers and making them seem more numerous than they really are. As it stands, the Surface Pro isn't really selling in huge quantities, which seems to suggest that the concept of a 2-in-1 convertible is more of a niche product category.
Not saying that there aren't groups of people who would legitimately benefit from a product like the Surface Pro. Just means that it's ultimately still a niche market that Apple has made a conscious decision not to address.
It’s all about use cases. A nice application is to ask if either of you workout with front lateral raises?
Two hands supporting any weight is a LOT less fatiguing than one hand being lifted up repetitively at no set intervals to use on screen input or actions. Form a seated position to 45 degree angle from your body.
Try this:
Hold a 10lbs double in both hands at less than 45 degrees from your body for 5mins (same as simulated by LEGO team during WWDC.
Wait 15mins arms full rested by your sides standing or seated you choose.
Now, hold a 5lbs dumbbell in any hand while seated and raise the dumbbell 45degrees from you body (about face level which is where PC screen would always naturally be) for 5mins.
When done each tell me which caused more strain?! It’ll be the latter.
Another third test, my double blind.
Hold a 5lbs dumbbell up and down at random intervals during 5minutes from 0 degrees beside your body while seated to 45 degrees again while seated. Have a friend that has something on you tell you when to lift or lower and if lowering halfway or fully.
Trust me this last test WILL absolutely have your shoulders screaming. And if you’re a bodybuilder who routinely works out at the gym 3+ x a week you’ll still agree the latter will cause you more fatigue!
It’s not about UI choices it’s about musculature and how body composition and ligaments etc respond to action in your shoulders based on action. Go I’ve rto bodybuilding.com and read all you can about front lateral raises.
Hint: look at ANY of Apple’s executive or director level staff upwards I see only 1 that wouldn’t have a problem with any 3 or all 3 of these tests daily during their work shift every few hours out of a day for 3mo this. Can you guess who?!
Two hands supporting any weight is a LOT less fatiguing than one hand being lifted up repetitively at no set intervals to use on screen input or actions. Form a seated position to 45 degree angle from your body.
Try this:
Hold a 10lbs double in both hands at less than 45 degrees from your body for 5mins (same as simulated by LEGO team during WWDC.
Wait 15mins arms full rested by your sides standing or seated you choose.
Now, hold a 5lbs dumbbell in any hand while seated and raise the dumbbell 45degrees from you body (about face level which is where PC screen would always naturally be) for 5mins.
When done each tell me which caused more strain?! It’ll be the latter.
Another third test, my double blind.
Hold a 5lbs dumbbell up and down at random intervals during 5minutes from 0 degrees beside your body while seated to 45 degrees again while seated. Have a friend that has something on you tell you when to lift or lower and if lowering halfway or fully.
Trust me this last test WILL absolutely have your shoulders screaming. And if you’re a bodybuilder who routinely works out at the gym 3+ x a week you’ll still agree the latter will cause you more fatigue!
It’s not about UI choices it’s about musculature and how body composition and ligaments etc respond to action in your shoulders based on action. Go I’ve rto bodybuilding.com and read all you can about front lateral raises.
Hint: look at ANY of Apple’s executive or director level staff upwards I see only 1 that wouldn’t have a problem with any 3 or all 3 of these tests daily during their work shift every few hours out of a day for 3mo this. Can you guess who?!
I think its reasonable to accept 'quality' as well..
To go to the extreme would mean 'Apple is king, and others are crap"
Defiantly not true, but you just arn't gonna get quality build on a $600 laptop.. There is always a trade-off if something is perfect, unless you spend more, in which case you'd get a better responsiveness track-pad which works 100% of the time, comparable to Apple.