Craig Federighi Talks Bringing iOS Apps to macOS, Reiterates No Plans for Touchscreen Macs

[Mac 128]

My dad otoh cannot stop. Whenever he uses his retina MBP after using an iPad he immediately tries to scroll on the screen lol.

I do this as well. Unfortunately many here are invoking the straw man argument that a touch screen would be used for the majority of the input, rather than an option for those times when it makes sense to intuitively touch the screen.

That would suggest that many users would find a touch screen on a Mac to be entirely logical and intuitive.

Yup. I find it quite natural after years of being conditioned to use touch screens just about everywhere, and in many cases, preferable to clicking and scrolling.

The idea that it takes more effort to lift my hand and touch the screen is more fatiguing than holding an iPad and touching it is silly -- and that is a situation where 100% of the input is by touch. Moreover, proper hand position is not resting them on the keyboard. If the hands are ergonomically floating above the keys, touching the screen is actually going to be more efficient and easier, than shifting into a trackpad position, or moving the hand to manipulate a mouse, and finding and navigating the cursor where it needs to be -- just point directly at the screen where you're already looking and touch it.

Once iOS apps start appearing on the Mac, it's going to get very confusing when a familiar touch interface can no longer be touched, and instead a mouse or trackpad will be necessary. It's also going prove that there's no reason iOS can't use a mouse or trackpad to navigate it when that would be the most natural choice.

 

[dannys1]

"We really feel that the ergonomics of using a Mac are that your hands are rested on a surface, and that lifting your arm up to poke a screen is a pretty fatiguing thing to do," he said.

THEN EXPLAIN THE ERGONOMICS OF THE SMART KEYBOARD ON THE IPAD PRO CRAIG.

Pointer support would fundamentally change the iPad Pro + Smart Keyboard combo for the better.

I think he knows it's god awful, but people demand keyboards so Apple made them for idiots to use. It's a horrible horrible experience I used it for about 3 minutes and gave up. It's even worse than a touch screen laptop because you've no mouse either and touching the screen is the primary way to interact with an iPad. I found myself trying to find keyboard shortcuts so I didn't have to reach up and touch a screen - on a device that was designed to be soley a touch screen...woeful UX.

Still Steve Troughton Smith loves it and his weird fetish for Macs to die so he can do all his work on a phone OS.
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The idea that it takes more effort to lift my hand and touch the screen is more fatiguing than holding an iPad and touching it is silly --

It really really isn't - they're nothing like each other. It IS fatiguing to reach up and touch a screen, it's horrible, as per the experience of using a smart keyboard above.

He's totally right a laptop should never ever ever have any touch screen input you've a giant trackpad there that works much better.

 

[VictorTango777]

To my mind Apple is artificially limiting convergence in order to force users to buy more devices.

Why don't they just come out and say it?

 

[jeremiah256]

And his statement applies... until further notice.

Yep. I like how he said "No, of course not...", then talked about their totally not ominous (for developers) Phase One plan and then showed a graph with iOS's UIKit integrated into the macOS ecosystem. His denial to developers was basically "Shh, developers. It's ok. Just the tip...just the tip."

For a while now, traditional computer sales (laptops, desktops) have been steadily declining. Apple knows this and have proven to not be afraid of cannibalizing a product with little future in order to boost another that is the future. Apple seems to be moving to control all the silicon that goes into all their devices. They keep pushing (and proving) how powerful iPads are compared to traditional computers. Their concentration has been on their main OS, iOS, for a while now.

Three years, max, and we'll have a buying option of an iPad Pro type device where you can add a hard Surface Book 2 type keyboard, with a more powerful GPU and USB-C/TB3, depending on your use case.

 

[DNichter]

Let's stop trying to move the goal posts, ok? Craig, Phil and several posters on this forum keep arguing about how terrible it is, having to reach across the air to touch a screen. Other companies make adjustable touch screens which render this argument moot. But Craig, Phil and several posters on this forum continue making that same argument anyway. Why?

Nothing to move. Why? Because it would result in comporomises to the OS, and yes frankly, it is terrible. I use an iPad Pro as my only other computer to my iPhone X and I prefer not to do it. Only when needed. Otherwise I use my keyboard just for typing and rely heavily on keyboard shortcuts. On the business side, which I’m sure you ultimately want me to admit, Apple would rather have you buy 2 devices. Now, I have no problem admitting that, they are a business and it certainly makes business sense, but I do still agree that it would result in compromises to the OS. If you don’t agree, that’s totally fine and reasonable. That’s why we have competition. I’m sure you’re very happy with your 2 in 1.

 

[cult hero]

In my experience, the people using touchscreens on their laptops is a minority. We have an office full of Surfaces and there is a certain novelty at first and it quickly goes away. I'm not saying there is no place for a touchscreen but I see two types of Surface users: people who primarily use it as a laptop and people who primarily use it as a tablet and most people I interact with fall into the former camp and would be better served with a laptop anyway. The people who generally use it as a tablet also generally fall into a category that doesn't need a laptop for any serious content creation. (The office tablet people almost always use them as glorified notepads.)

And anyone who thinks Apple has QC issues hasn't worked with Surfaces in large enough volume. (Especially those docks. I feel like we have issues with about 1 in 3 of those things.) And this is not to say I think Apple doesn't give the IT department its own share of issues, but... I feel like most people around here who bring up Surfaces haven't ever actually used them. They're not bad, but they've got problems.

Again, I'm not saying there is no place for touchscreen laptops, but I get Apple's position. (And touchscreen laptop lovers in this office are an annoyingly vocal minority. They kind who will sit over your desk, touch—and smudge up the monitor—and then be like, "hur, hur, I forgot, you have a Mac." Dude, I barely reach for my mouse. Like I want to touch my monitor.)

18 months in and... I haven't found the Touchbar to be very useful. And yet, customizing the keys on it is more useful than what it replaced at my end. So... whatever there. Replacing the Siri button (worst default ever) with a lock is actually really nice. I do use it for emojis occasionally but in general... eh.

 

[HowardEv]

LOL

You don’t expect a new Mac mini?

 

[bretm]

Not really. The keyboard is an optional accessory. At it's core, the iPad is still a content consumption device, not a content creation device.

Keep drinking that kool-aid. They don't want to cannibalize their own products. They gladly hype the greatness of using a keyboard with the pro. It was one of their big product launches at one point. They make their own special keyboard cases, etc. And without a mouse, the ergonomics are 1000x worse than a laptop.

They need to get their head out of their butt and just add touch screen to the MacOS. It's freakin ridiculous. Having to drag a mouse cursor to some tiny link or button on a screen when it's right there to push is just weak at this point. They keep making these ergonomic excuses. Nobody plans to NOT use the mouse. They just want the best of both worlds. Touch is great for some things where a mouse is better for many others.

 

[jeremiah256]

In my experience, the people using touchscreens on their laptops is a minority. We have an office full of Surfaces and there is a certain novelty at first and it quickly goes away. I'm not saying there is no place for a touchscreen but I see two types of Surface users: people who primarily use it as a laptop and people who primarily use it as a tablet and most people I interact with fall into the former camp and would be better served with a laptop anyway. The people who generally use it as a tablet also generally fall into a category that doesn't need a laptop for any serious content creation. (The office tablet people almost always use them as glorified notepads.)

They may be in the minority (for now), but I don't think they should or can be ignored.

I'm in environments where people are using both iPad Pros and Surfaces. It is common for them to use the tablet mode to consume information, take notes, and mark up documents, and also use the keyboard when they need a traditional computer or when using a keyboard is the better option. Granted, these are mid to higher level individuals and are not the ones doing the grunt work of data entry or content creation, but they are creating documents (reports and presentations) and the 2-in-1 capabilities of both devices are what they value.

 

[niun]

You don’t expect a new Mac mini?

Actually I do.. I'm dreading what Apple will do to that poor beast (actually thinking about it, is there anything more they can do to it??).. Same with the MacBook Air.
Apple just seems to delight in taking things I genuinely loved using and beating them into a soldered, anemic doorstop.

 

[DaveP]

You also cannot evenly compare all Macs when it comes to touch screens. Wanting a touch screen on a 13" laptop sitting in your lap as you sit on the sofa could make sense. Having a touch screen on a 27" iMac would be insanity.

 

[farewelwilliams]

Sure, I can effectively minimize the risk of RSI by occasionally using the OPTION of touching the screen thereby reducing my productivity a tiny percentage, --OR-- I can be forced to take a 15 minute break with 0% productivity. Like Craig, you MUST ENFORCE only one choice on me. If Apple gave me the OPTION of buying and using a touch screen, you likely would have the OPTION of either not buying the TS, or not using it if you did buy it. Not at all against 15 minute breaks for non-RSI health reasons. However, Apple and you deciding the its it BEST that I not have the OPTION of occasionally reaching for the screen while coding to select a word or line thereby running at 95% productivity rather than 0% for 15 minutes again falls into the category of hubris (or fanboi-ism in your case). Options are good imho.

options create confusion. if you saw an option to add +$129 for a touch screen option, you'd confuse the 65 year old customer that is looking for a new laptop. once they see that option, they'll be asking some questions like:
- Do I need a touch screen to use certain apps?
- If not, what will I be missing out on?
- Do all apps support touch?
- Does it affect battery life?
- Does it add weight?
- Does it degrade the quality of the screen?
- Can I use it like an iPad (like folding the screen all the way back)?
- Can I use an Apple Pencil on the touch screen?

also imagine the 65 year old that's never used a multi touch trackpad before. if they bought a touch screen laptop, there's a chance that they might think that the only way to pinch-zoom a photo is with a touchscreen. pinch-zooming photos all day would guarantee arm fatigue.

keep it simple. product line is already complicated enough.

 

[jeremiah256]

Apple just seems to delight in taking things I genuinely loved using and beating them into a soldered, anemic doorstop.

Well nobody took the hint when they only used glue to keep you from upgrading, so they had to take the next step. /s

 

[ChrisH3677]

No touchscreen screens maybe, but I'll wager we'll have "touchscreen" keyboards by 2020. The touchbar is the obvious precursor to that.

Imagine the power that will give software developers to have totally customisable keyboards for their applications?!

 

[FelixDerKater]

This should be exceedingly simple.

 

[VictorTango777]

Keep drinking that kool-aid. They don't want to cannibalize their own products.

If that really is Apple's intention, I'm sure they would just say it. When is Apple ever afraid to speak their mind?

 

[charlituna]

​

It's not currently clear when the new tools will be ready for third-party developers, but it appears it will take some time as Federighi suggested we will hear more about the project at WWDC 2019.

he flat out said the developers will get this in 2019 and developers get new toys at WWDC so that seems pretty clear
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I honestly applaud Apple for doing the correct approach by keeping MacOS / iOS separate while providing incentive for developers to port their iOS apps over to the Mac.

but at the same thing there should be a lot more feature parity between the two. there's lots of things in restrictions, photos etc on mac os that should already be in ios.
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Fortnite already has a macOS version, Craig.

I don’t care about touchscreen macs either, but I also don’t get the fatigue argument.

the argument isn't about keyboards as much as raising your hand to touch and drag on the screen instead of using a trackpad/mouse
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What Apple is doing to the Mac is destroying it, so please, end MacOS here, so that it’s not hurt even more, and then just port Xcode to the iPad Pro, and you’ll have the kind of ecosystem you want without making more nonsense in your Mac product line.

or maybe you should just switch to linux, windows or whatever.
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Not really. The keyboard is an optional accessory. At it's core, the iPad is still a content consumption device, not a content creation device.

i create more content on my iPad than I do on my mac. and I know a few dozen folks that are the same or pretty close. it's all about what kind of content you want to create. some of mine is actually better and easier on the iPad
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Keep drinking that kool-aid. They don't want to cannibalize their own products.

apple has no issue with cannibalizing their own products. because the money is still coming to them.

 

[VictorTango777]

I've known a few people who have touchscreen laptops and they use them fairly often, particularly for drawing notes using a stylus.

That said, it got annoying when one tutor at uni assumed my rMBP has a touchscreen.

Personally, I can live without it although there has been the odd occasion when it would have been useful.

Let's explore this feeling of annoyance further. Why do you think you got annoyed? Here is one theory:
For years, you believed Apple's arguments against touchscreen Macs and Macbooks. And you believed Apple when they said that nobody wants or should have a touchscreen desktop or laptop computer. But now you see people trying to use your Macbook as a touchscreen. This set off a feeling of cognitive dissonance. Of course you didn't want to say that Apple was wrong. But at the same time, you could not deny what you were seeing with your own eyes. Perhaps you were also trying to avoid jumping to conclusions against the person touching your Macbook screen ("He must be stupid, because only stupid people expect laptops to have touchscreens"). You wanted a clear sense of right vs. wrong. Naturally, we want to see ourselves on the "right side" of everything. Not knowing where to direct the blame, this feeling of mental conflict continued to build up subconsciously until it manifested in the conscious mind as a feeling of annoyance. What do you think?

 

[cult hero]

They may be in the minority (for now), but I don't think they should or can be ignored.

Right. You don't. But someone number crunching deciding what particular group is worth adequate profit margins does. It was (and is) like the group that wants Apple to release a "tower" or some kind of hobbyist Mac. And I'm not saying there isn't a pool of people who want certain things, but... I can't say my experience has given me any reason to believe Apple is passing up some kind of golden opportunity.

I'm in environments where people are using both iPad Pros and Surfaces. It is common for them to use the tablet mode to consume information, take notes, and mark up documents, and also use the keyboard when they need a traditional computer or when using a keyboard is the better option. Granted, these are mid to higher level individuals and are not the ones doing the grunt work of data entry or content creation, but they are creating documents (reports and presentations) and the 2-in-1 capabilities of both devices are what they value.

This sounds like a place where an iPad Pro is absolutely adequate. The number of people who regularly need tablet and laptop functionality on the same machine is not a huge number so far as I can tell and Apple's focus is clearly on being able to use these machines in tandem.

This isn't any particular reflection on what I think anyone should or should not make. I have a laptop that spends most of its life operating as a desktop. (Probably the only reason I can even tolerate the latest MBP keyboards—I don't use it!) I mean, I'm a dev. It's 2018 and I spend most of my professional life with tools very similar to tools I was running like 15 years ago. For me it's simply a matter of not messing with the terminal, lol.

I just don't see the market for people who want spend enough time using a tablet as a tablet in their professional settings that could also benefit from having a full blown computer as being all that big. (On the other hand, bringing UIKit to macOS might be the start. Who knows?) There are certainly markets Apple does not care about at all: hardcore gamers and computer hardware enthusiasts come to mind (also, people who want Apple-branded WiFi and server solutions).

 

[redheeler]

but at the same thing there should be a lot more feature parity between the two. there's lots of things in restrictions, photos etc on mac os that should already be in ios.

I agree about feature parity, and I've criticized Apple plenty for developing features on iOS and taking years to port them to the Mac. That being said, MacOS and iOS should remain separate operating systems for a variety of reasons.

Hopefully the move to the same APIs on both MacOS and iOS will make it easier for Apple maintain feature parity.

 

[VictorTango777]

Nothing to move. Why? Because it would result in comporomises to the OS, and yes frankly, it is terrible. I use an iPad Pro as my only other computer to my iPhone X and I prefer not to do it. Only when needed. Otherwise I use my keyboard just for typing and rely heavily on keyboard shortcuts. On the business side, which I’m sure you ultimately want me to admit, Apple would rather have you buy 2 devices. Now, I have no problem admitting that, they are a business and it certainly makes business sense, but I do still agree that it would result in compromises to the OS. If you don’t agree, that’s totally fine and reasonable. That’s why we have competition. I’m sure you’re very happy with your 2 in 1.

The main argument used by Craig Federighi, Phil Schiller, and posters in this forum is "fatigue" and "gorilla arm". That was the argument quoted in the article. And the same argument has been repeated several times by other posters in this same thread.

The existence of highly adjustable touchscreens like the Surface Studio addresses the fatigue/gorilla arm argument and renders it moot.

If you disagree, then explain why. But do not start interjecting other arguments about unrelated issues, because that is moving the goal posts.

But if you agree that the Surface Studio and similar screens do address the fatigue/gorilla arm argument, then do you think it is appropriate for Craig, Phil, and the posters in this forum to keep using that argument?

 

[jeremiah256]

Right. You don't. But someone number crunching deciding what particular group is worth adequate profit margins does. It was (and is) like the group that wants Apple to release a "tower" or some kind of hobbyist Mac. And I'm not saying there isn't a pool of people who want certain things, but... I can't say my experience has given me any reason to believe Apple is passing up some kind of golden opportunity.

It's not that Apple is passing up an opportunity, it's that they haven't needed to react. Yet. But they surely know that traditional non-touch based computers are not a growth market. Meanwhile, the primary computing devices people interface with on a daily basis, from Amazon, Apple, Google, and Microsoft (and this is just the American companies) are touch based (phones, tablets, 2-in-1s). Apple announced a 'Phase One', set to fully kick off in 2019, of bringing iOS apps to macOS. A Phase One means there's at least a Phase Two. It is not illogical to assume Phase Two and beyond may include a further integration/merger of iOS and macOS.

As for many wanting a tower, I'm not seeing the logic of not having a new cheese grater tower-type Mac Pro. Apple publicly admitted they screwed up with the form factor of the current Mac Pro.

 

[Amazing Iceman]

In my experience, the people using touchscreens on their laptops is a minority. We have an office full of Surfaces and there is a certain novelty at first and it quickly goes away. I'm not saying there is no place for a touchscreen but I see two types of Surface users: people who primarily use it as a laptop and people who primarily use it as a tablet and most people I interact with fall into the former camp and would be better served with a laptop anyway. The people who generally use it as a tablet also generally fall into a category that doesn't need a laptop for any serious content creation. (The office tablet people almost always use them as glorified notepads.)

And anyone who thinks Apple has QC issues hasn't worked with Surfaces in large enough volume. (Especially those docks. I feel like we have issues with about 1 in 3 of those things.) And this is not to say I think Apple doesn't give the IT department its own share of issues, but... I feel like most people around here who bring up Surfaces haven't ever actually used them. They're not bad, but they've got problems.

Again, I'm not saying there is no place for touchscreen laptops, but I get Apple's position. (And touchscreen laptop lovers in this office are an annoyingly vocal minority. They kind who will sit over your desk, touch—and smudge up the monitor—and then be like, "hur, hur, I forgot, you have a Mac." Dude, I barely reach for my mouse. Like I want to touch my monitor.)

18 months in and... I haven't found the Touchbar to be very useful. And yet, customizing the keys on it is more useful than what it replaced at my end. So... whatever there. Replacing the Siri button (worst default ever) with a lock is actually really nice. I do use it for emojis occasionally but in general... eh.

• I have a MacBook, but I mainly use an iPad Pro with Smart Keyboard when I'm not at my desk on my iMac.
• I have come to the conclusion that using the iPad's touch screen only appeals to me because it's so close to the keyboard.
• And I don't see myself needing to tap on the screen of my MacBook when using it, not even by instinct.
• I'm always struggling to keep my display clean of fingerprints and smears.
Of course, all this thinking may change if Apple releases a Mac with a Touchscreen.

Mmm... I remember seeing an Apple patent on a display proximity sensor where you don't really need to actually touch the screen, but a simple gesture would help you interact.

My iMac it's at arms length, I don't see myself stretching my arm to reach for the screen. How about a gesture sensor just behind the keyboard? That may actually work.
Give it a try, using your imagination.

 

[Digital Dude]

As for the touchscreen ergonomics/fatigue issue, I finally agree with Craig Federighi. That is hard for me to do following his lame DJ demo of the equally useless 'Touch Bar' on my MacBook Pro. Still, I use it more than his emoji mania push.

 

[CLS727]

AGREE with not wanting touch screen on my desktop computer. iOS is a different experience.

But for work flow, I'd love to merge: iMessage + FaceTime + Contacts = Apple's Skype for macOS

All I want is a better experience for using my iPhone.... without picking up my iPhone.... while I'm sitting at my desk with my headset on all day long.

iMessage works great... I have it in the bottom left of my screen all day... so much easier to type there with my full desktop keyboard and to be able to drag/drop images and screenshots with a mouse to my desktop. And what makes it really great is that is does regular SMS too when my phone is nearby to my Android friends.

But the top left of my screen is still Skype.... I'd love to be able to drop it forever.

But the macOS FaceTime app sucks... I don't really do video calls, and it just doesn't work right as a audio-only call app.... and it shouldn't be separate from the iMessages anyway.