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CSS Animation Coming to Safari, Already in iPhone. Less Dependence on Flash?

ethweg said:
I don't really understand what this is about, it sounds like flash which Safari Supports. Can someone explain? Thanks! :apple:
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Basically this is allowing animation of layers and objects on a webpage to be animated via css (you will have to read up on css if you want more information).

unlike flash a css animation does not require a a file such as an .swf to be embedded in the page, it can target any layer, frame, table, image, text etc on a webpage for animation.
This means accessability software for blind people can still use the site without having an extra non-flash page made up for example. It also means smaller filesizes and a cutting down on pre-loaders (the "now loading" things).
Instead of a seperate plugin, if this makes standard then every web browser will be expected to have built-in rendering, once again cutting down on loading times, drive space etc

Currently it is as cpu intensive as flash, but it should be optimised before completion to significantly cut down on resource use. At the moment it seems to be running a "use all available resources" setting.

With the way css works you could also be able to easily add such features to a current website or have the ability for users to be able to choose the level of animation and interactivity of a page without having to create seperate physical pages. Much like the ability to allow users to choose a style or theme for the site (once again for usually used for accessability in the case of colourblindness).

This will cut down on the need for javascript, applets and embedded objects on pages effectively streamlining webpages into a more rebust package.

This really is much more to this than you see here at face value. As a designer i am eagerly awaiting the chance to build more interactive and intuitive sites with all that html5 and future css has to offer.
 
Look, despite all this purism, the fact remains that I want to be able to check in online for my several-times-a-week flights using my iPhone. I wanted to view the US election results as they were happening. It would be nice to see video clips on the BBC website before I get home. I want to know my favourite singer's upcoming concerts around Europe.

Apple is saying to me, "well tough f*&^%$ing sh*t. You can't if you use an iPhone, we don't think it's nice. You can have all the internet, except that, because we don't approve."

I know it uses my battery, just give me the option please. Give me an App that toggles flash on and off. Then it's my choice. Like the web should be.
 
Darkroom said:
CSS animation is suitable for fading and scrolling, the end... everything else is jagged and ugly.

finally, you can get a whole lot of complex animation out of a .swf that has very little load time (under 200k), and that's without compression...
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Thank you! Everyone's talking about "the end of flash".. yeah, that's really going to happen when probably 80% of the media on the internet use it...

Also, any web developer will tell you that CSS is different on just about any browser. Even simple things get mashed up very easily. I'd hate to manually punch out all that CSS animation code only to have it work on half the browsers out there.

Finally, someone talked about IE finally coming into compliance. Wow! write that on a piece of paper and mail it to 2012, because that's how long it's going to take for people to stop using IE 6.

I'm really impressed with people here having a hardon for the latest iPhone cop-out.

I remember when Apple announced the iPhone and said NO NATIVE APPS BECAUSE YOU DON'T NEED THEM. Anyone else remember the boards here? Same phenomenon: fanbois making excuses/saying it's adequate... up until Apple actually started selling apps... anyone out there still think that? didn't think so.

I can't wait to see flash for iPhone--and by the way, it IS coming. All the fanbois are going to drop the CSS animation idea like a rock.
 
slughead said:
Also, any web developer will tell you that CSS is different on just about any browser. Even simple things get mashed up very easily. I'd hate to manually punch out all that CSS animation code only to have it work on half the browsers out there.
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Well it's not often a developer comes into contact with css anyway. A designer on the otherhand...
 
I noticed something odd with my iPhone: the leaves looked great for about a minute. Then some of them began turning into blocky blue question marks (some were even reversed). Anyone else notice that?
 
garybUK said:
Am I missing something here but what about video? that still leaves another HUGE chunk of uses for flash. Plus if IE doesn't implement this a lot of developers won't take it into account so it will negate the point. That's why Flash is so big it solves problems with browser's poor standards.
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You can already watch flash video from pretty much any website if you jailbreak.
 
I am not a big fan of sites that only use Flash, so, the CSS animation sounds very interesting. BUT, this will only become a good alternative to Flash if EVERY browser rendered CSS the exact same way, because right now, it's a total pain to create CSS for sites that work on all major browsers. Just look at IE, it has never rendered CSS properly simply because MS refuses to follow the same CSS Box Model that all other browsers adhere to (because it is the standard). Then you have Safari and Firefox which do things differently as well, although MSIE is the worst offender.

I can't imagine how miserable it would be to extend the current CSS rendering mess to animation and interface design. For that reason alone, I hate to admit that Flash provides a standard platform that helps to greatly reduce development time because you don't have to spend hours and hours just fine-tuning one CSS element to look alike in 6 different browsers.

However, developers who create sites that use ONLY Flash and provide no alternative for those who have it turned off should not be in the business of building websites for any commercial venture.
 
Flash is a lot more than just animated webpages. Flash is... flash. There is no substitute because so many websites use flash. Having animated CSS doesnt mean you can now access one of the thousands of flash sites on the iphone.

The iphone/pod still needs flash.
 
Trajectory said:
this will only become a good alternative to Flash if EVERY browser rendered CSS the exact same way
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The main issue here is with IE. It is a bad browser that has always been the last to adopt new standards (see 32bit png transparency). Because of this designers have had to skip using new techniques most of the time because the most common browser does not render them correctly.

Because IE is the noly browser installed on a windows machine from the start a large number of users do not even know alternatives exist, meaning IE's terrible update schedule controls the web design industry.

This is why you see more personal sites turning to a no IE compatability test mode combined with a "designed for use with firefox" or whatnot banner these days. Unfortunatly a professional cannot use this route because their customers want maximum exposure.

If microsoft would pay more attention to the direction the industry is taking and plan ahead with IE developments then this problem would be no where near as bad. Personally i think it is time they decided to cut their losses and scrap IE then bundle a variety of browsers in the windows7 install for the user to choose from.
 
stainlessliquid said:
Flash is a lot more than just animated webpages. Flash is... flash. There is no substitute because so many websites use flash. Having animated CSS doesnt mean you can now access one of the thousands of flash sites on the iphone.

The iphone/pod still needs flash.
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Yes Yes and YES
 
yeah this just seems like a cop-out for not supporting flash.
Instead of supporting a huge chunk of the web, lets just make a new standard and hope every site jumps ship.
 
What a great idea

Did you see the code? Nobody would need a player, a big hunk of proprietary, bloated code on their site. Just start <video, etc., and off you go. The page would load quickly. All browsers would have to support all formats.

I'm sure Flash would survive, but in many instances, it would be much ligher weight, and faster, just to make the HTML call.
 
Those defending Flash...

I'd be willing to bet most of you defending Flash are probably Flash Developers or Designers.

Epic Fail:

- if your _business_ (i.e. what you are trying to *sell*) requires the installation of a piece of proprietary software.
- If your business will not work in major corporate environments.
- If your business relies on a third party company to fix security holes (Flash player) on top of a third part company (MS/Mozilla/Apple) to fix *their* holes.
- If you need to switch media delivery methods to communicate via alternative means (such as email, mobile)

Those are just a couple show-stoppers off the top of my head. Yes, there is still a need for Flash, as it has been mentioned - Variable Data Video and some others, depending on your campaign/audience etc... The reality is that as a Web Designer, generally you either pick or influence the choice of delivery method/product/technology (the right tool for the job) - if you are desperately clinging on to Flash, no questions asked: you need to wake up.

UI development that includes single-document-interfaces, rich media/interactivity has been present in the web world for about 5 years now, *without* the use of the "ubiquitous Flash player", and it's only getting better.

And, I know that the iPhone not having Flash support is completely hurting it's sales!</sarcasm>

Sorry guys, but we all need to be more agile than just unconditionally clinging to a technology. Fact: jQuery, Scriptaculous, Mootools etc. have brought lean, cross-browser, technology independent rich interfaces to the mainstream. That, combined with CSS animation could mean that transitioning from Flash to HTML/CSS/Javascript might be a better long-term solution.

Or... better yet... you keep using Flash...:cool:

Could the iPhone/iPod Touch benefit from Flash support? Sure. Is it contingent on the success of the mobile web? Not in a million years. (Do I miss it? Heck no). Do I think that CSS animation support should come first? That's up to Apple's bean counters.
 
Codemonkey said:
Sorry guys, but we all need to be more agile than just unconditionally clinging to a technology. Fact: jQuery, Scriptaculous, Mootools etc. have brought lean, cross-browser, technology independent rich interfaces to the mainstream. That, combined with CSS animation could mean that transitioning from Flash to HTML/CSS/Javascript might be a better long-term solution.
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Honestly, that's all fine and dandy, and a good thing to look forward to. My objection is that most people do need something right now to design/code in. But feel free to show your client a wonderful animated website with embedded videos, but make sure you let them know it will only show up on about 7% of the browsers out there: link

Browser Statistics for January 2009 Red = Webkit
IE7 25.7%
IE6 18.5%
IE8 0.6%
Fx 45.5%
Chrome 3.9%
Safari 3.0%
Other 2.3%
 
The Phazer said:
No chance of this replacing Flash anytime soon. Not in IE6 = not mainstream enough for most users.

Flash are also doing a lot of work in building in DRM to prevent video/audio stream ripping which will continue to push Flash to the top of the queue for professional media companies and broadcasters.

Phazer
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Just to reinforce how important this is, Channel 4 have just announced that they're going to be switching from WMV streams to Flash 9 - good news for Apple owners. But their blog *explicitly* rules out doing an iPhone version in the manner of the BBC, because the content is too easy to permanently capture and they're beholden to third party rights holders to prevent that.

The embed video tag would be just as unsecure to permanent captures as making available an unprotected iPhone H264 stream. Indeed, probably less so. And hence that solution is no use to broadcasters whatsoever, which is why Flash will still own that market. The only realistic alternative is Silverlight, and be careful what you wish for there.

Phazer
 
dejo said:
Except they never said that.
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Steve Jobs specifically said web 2.0 "apps" (he even used the term "app", :rolleyes: ) are just as "functional" as native--totally ignoring any questions about 3rd party apps until months later. One of the reasons apple released safari for windows for for iPhone "web app" (HAHA ... app) development.

If they were even considering 3rd party native apps at the time, they would not have bothered trying to compete on the Windows platform. Not to second-guess these guys, but please? ANOTHER browser for Windows? The ONLY good use for Saf on windows is testing websites for iphone compatibility.

More important than Apple's response, however, was the response here: Mostly fanbois saying how versatile web apps are and how it's almost unnecessary. Yeah, not everyone was saying that, but most of the self-labeled "tech experts" were saying how Javascript and CSS could mimick apps like Word and such. Hilarious.

Mark my words: when flash comes out for iPhone, "CSS animation" will go the way of the "Web App" (HAHAH .. app); at least for the really complex stuff.
 
slughead said:
Mark my words: when flash comes out for iPhone, "CSS animation" will go the way of the "Web App" (HAHAH .. app); at least for the really complex stuff.
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Very unlikely. The iPhone is simply an early adopter, it will not be the main driving force of css animation.
 
Took a look at the leaves on my iPhone's Safari, and with one other text-only page open it was struggling.
 
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