Dave Lee’s MacBook Pro review is telling

[maflynn]

He's definitely got a thing for Apple, which is unusual given his profession,

I think he found that he can make more money on his videos on slamming apple then other subjects. I find it hard to watch his videos, even though he does raise some good points.

Your answer is completely irrelevant and a waste of your energy.

As your continual posting of labels is as well

 

[Mockletoy]

As much as it works my nerves to see people reflexively defend Apple no matter what, there are plenty who go just as far in the opposite direction.

And you always hear about all the issues with Apple gear, and someone inevitably says "you can get a Windows machine without the issues that is just as good for half the cost!"

Well, you can't get those machines with macOS, so, you know, who cares. But aside from all that, it's really just not true. Go Google all the crazy issues with the Dell XPS machines. The 9570 is a trainwreck. Weird colors, broken sleep, audio latency craziness, wonky GPU fans ("fixed" by a BIOS update that severely throttles the GPU), and on and on.

And what will Dell do? Release the next iteration, move on, and largely leave all those with the 9570 to rot.

Seriously, when I hear people going on and on about how expensive and awful Apple is, I think about all the horror stories I've read about Asus support, Razer support, Dell support, etc. I don't mean the support you get when you call them on the phone (though that is often horrendous), I mean the support they give to products after the sale.

As in, you buy an Asus machine today and you better hope it's in good working order because they've moved on to the next model and any issues you have will be with you -- probably unacknowledged, let alone fixed -- until you sell the machine (for almost nothing relative to what you paid for it) and move on.

You don't hear too much about Dell or Asus or whomever doing "repair programs" because they have often left their customers to rot with broken machines that were built broken and will remain so until someone finally throws them in the garbage where they belong.

Look at the XPS 9570 (which I briefly considered purchasing): Dell has been "fixing" it with one sloppy band-aid BIOS update after another since the day it launched and it's still a total mess for many people. Seriously, Google "XPS 9570 issues" and tell me that if that were an Apple device there wouldn't be headlines shrieking about it all over the Web, class action lawsuits being filed in every courthouse, editorials calling for Tim Cook to be tarred, feathered, and launched into the sun ...

Edit to add: Also, check out the drama surrounding the new Alienware Area 51 notebook. The forums at notebookreview.com are full (1000+ page thread) of people posting about what a nightmare that thing is. Orders sitting unfulfilled for weeks, Dell support lying to people about why -- and the why turned out to be a faulty motherboard design that was causing the voltage regulation components on these $4000+ machines to burn out. Page after page of "well, my 2nd machine just burnt ..."

 

[a m u n]

Sponsored by RΛZΞR.

 

[maflynn]

Sponsored by RΛZΞR.

I have to say, i love the look, design, and performance of the Razer. The price is up there, along with apple and if you want the 4k display, its ridiculously expensive. If I thought I could live with 1080p, I may have opted for the Razer over the Lenovo, but for me, the Thinkpad had too many pluses and pricing was one of the major pluses.

 

[Mockletoy]

Sponsored by RΛZΞR.

If there's any company on Earth that should not be poking fun at any other company for putting out bad products and offering crappy support it's Razer.

A few years back my mom decided to buy me a new gaming mouse for Christmas, so she went to Best Buy and asked for the "best" one they had, which of course they interpreted to mean "most expensive," so she bought me a Razer Mamba wireless. $150 (!), great build quality, cool charging dock, pretty lights.

And I had to keep a pile of Q-tips on my desk to keep the sensor clean because apparently even the tiniest speck of dust on the sensor was enough to keep it from tracking properly. And sometimes? Sometimes it just wouldn't track at all for no reason. I looked into it and found that earlier models had had similar issues. A firmware update allegedly fixed it. To this day there is no firmware update for the model I had.

At one point it simply stopped working. The buttons and the lighting and the scroll wheel worked fine, but the sensor was totally dead. And I started working with Razer "support," which, long story short, I'll never buy a Razer product unless someone other than Razer is my point of contact for support.

 

[davidhunternyc]

I think many of us would move to another computer manufacturer if we could get their computers to run macOS reliably, not a jail broken operating system but one licensed by Apple. I drop into the MicroSoft store from time to time and I'm trying to get used to the Windows OS but I simply can not. I'm stuck between a rock and hard place. I'm using a 2010 MacBook Pro and I want to upgrade but to what? Every slam against Apple is justified. I just don't have the courage to leave the Apple ecosystem.

 

[oldmacs]

Imagine what they could do with the old non retina chasis, with modern components. A proper cooling system + brilliant battery life. That would be my dream laptop. Apple will of course never make it. Thin=better even if it means compromising everything.

 

[BigMcGuire]

As much as it works my nerves to see people reflexively defend Apple no matter what, there are plenty who go just as far in the opposite direction.

And you always hear about all the issues with Apple gear, and someone inevitably says "you can get a Windows machine without the issues that is just as good for half the cost!"

Well, you can't get those machines with macOS, so, you know, who cares. But aside from all that, it's really just not true. Go Google all the crazy issues with the Dell XPS machines. The 9570 is a trainwreck. Weird colors, broken sleep, audio latency craziness, wonky GPU fans ("fixed" by a BIOS update that severely throttles the GPU), and on and on.

And what will Dell do? Release the next iteration, move on, and largely leave all those with the 9570 to rot.

Seriously, when I hear people going on and on about how expensive and awful Apple is, I think about all the horror stories I've read about Asus support, Razer support, Dell support, etc. I don't mean the support you get when you call them on the phone (though that is often horrendous), I mean the support they give to products after the sale.

As in, you buy an Asus machine today and you better hope it's in good working order because they've moved on to the next model and any issues you have will be with you -- probably unacknowledged, let alone fixed -- until you sell the machine (for almost nothing relative to what you paid for it) and move on.

You don't hear too much about Dell or Asus or whomever doing "repair programs" because they have often left their customers to rot with broken machines that were built broken and will remain so until someone finally throws them in the garbage where they belong.

Look at the XPS 9570 (which I briefly considered purchasing): Dell has been "fixing" it with one sloppy band-aid BIOS update after another since the day it launched and it's still a total mess for many people. Seriously, Google "XPS 9570 issues" and tell me that if that were an Apple device there wouldn't be headlines shrieking about it all over the Web, class action lawsuits being filed in every courthouse, editorials calling for Tim Cook to be tarred, feathered, and launched into the sun ...

Edit to add: Also, check out the drama surrounding the new Alienware Area 51 notebook. The forums at notebookreview.com are full (1000+ page thread) of people posting about what a nightmare that thing is. Orders sitting unfulfilled for weeks, Dell support lying to people about why -- and the why turned out to be a faulty motherboard design that was causing the voltage regulation components on these $4000+ machines to burn out. Page after page of "well, my 2nd machine just burnt ..."

You bring out a great point. Grass is always greener on the other side. My little brother's XPS 13 has had so many problems he can't use it to play games without it restarting. My XPS 15 (purchased last year) restarted randomly, had more blue screens than in the last 10-15 years of Windows usage. Bios updates helped - found putting windows power management at full performance helped too - but they keep screwing things up when they fix one thing, they break another. Now the CPU fan runs all the time with the slightest usage but the blue screens have stopped.

Nothing like walking into your boss' office to take notes during an important meeting and having your brand new XPS 15 blue screen 2-3 times.

I spend all day on windows so I'm not partial to one or the other - completely. I do prefer my MBP because it stays out of my way when I want to do stuff.

Hey, people are free to do what they want. But your comments about the XPS issues is telling. Meanwhile, Macrumors is flooded with "Apple is the worst company ever, Tim Cook is ruining Apple, MBPs are a complete joke right now, MBP keyboards are unusable." Then raining on the parade of anyone who has an Apple laptop. https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/just-got-my-new-macbook-pro-2019.2182718/ funny that some people spend their lives just to bag on the happiness of others.

 

[Mockletoy]

I think many of us would move to another computer manufacturer if we could get their computers to run macOS reliably, not a jail broken operating system but one licensed by Apple. I drop into the MicroSoft store from time to time and I'm trying to get used to the Windows OS but I simply can not. I'm stuck between a rock and hard place. I'm using a 2010 MacBook Pro and I want to upgrade but to what? Every slam against Apple is justified. I just don't have the courage to leave the Apple ecosystem.

I agree that the current crop of Apple notebooks are problematic. The lineup is cluttered and confusing for non-techy folks, the keyboard fiasco is a massive black eye, an unforced error that they just keep compounding. The non-Touch Bar notebooks are 2 CPU generations behind for no obvious reason. Have they been abandoned? Who knows! And so on.

They offer expensive CPU "upgrades" in their notebooks that actually run slower in many key scenarios than the CPU you're "upgrading" from because, well, the laws of physics are annoyingly immutable.

Plus, Apple is price gouging like crazy on RAM and SSDs, both of which are dirt cheap now. You can get 16GB of RAM for a hundred bucks. You can get a 1TB PCIE SSD with passable performance (Intel 660p) for $100, or one with excellent performance for twice that. But despite the prices of both RAM and SSD's bottoming out over the last several months, Apple continues to charge the same premium as when component prices were 2X or more higher than they are now. But, hey, if you want more RAM or storage in your MacBook, you have to buy it from Apple or else, so they can charge what they please ...

They're still shipping desktop computers with 8GB of RAM and 5400RPM spinning disks that can't be upgraded. If I were them, I'd be plain embarrassed to ask people to buy that crap in 2019.

They've been designing the new "modular" Mac Pro for years now, which tells me conclusively that what they end up releasing won't be what I and many other want, because it wouldn't take years to update the cheese grater case to modern specs.

But, at the end of the day the PC OEMs really aren't any better in many ways, and in a lot of ways they are worse. For whatever reason, Apple gets publicly brutalized for each and every little problem while other companies release one piece of broken junk after another, leave their customers hanging, and move on to repeat the cycle without much noise and fuss. If you buy a flawed Apple machine, odds are they'll be forced to make it right at some point, one way or another. If you buy a flawed PC there's a very good chance you're just screwed.

 

[BigMcGuire]

If there's any company on Earth that should not be poking fun at any other company for putting out bad products and offering crappy support it's Razer.

A few years back my mom decided to buy me a new gaming mouse for Christmas, so she went to Best Buy and asked for the "best" one they had, which of course they interpreted to mean "most expensive," so she bought me a Razer Mamba wireless. $150 (!), great build quality, cool charging dock, pretty lights.

And I had to keep a pile of Q-tips on my desk to keep the sensor clean because apparently even the tiniest speck of dust on the sensor was enough to keep it from tracking properly. And sometimes? Sometimes it just wouldn't track at all for no reason. I looked into it and found that earlier models had had similar issues. A firmware update allegedly fixed it. To this day there is no firmware update for the model I had.

At one point it simply stopped working. The buttons and the lighting and the scroll wheel worked fine, but the sensor was totally dead. And I started working with Razer "support," which, long story short, I'll never buy a Razer product unless someone other than Razer is my point of contact for support.

It is sad, I got into Razr back in the day of Eve Online and WoW pre WOTLK. I still have my gaming mouse from back then and use it today with my MBP. Today, I tried to recommend Razr gaming mice to people I know and they got defective units or had so many problems with them they had to return them.
[doublepost=1558971458][/doublepost]

Imagine what they could do with the old non retina chasis, with modern components. A proper cooling system + brilliant battery life. That would be my dream laptop. Apple will of course never make it. Thin=better even if it means compromising everything.

I wonder how many people would actually buy this? Apple is raking in the billions because people are buying their stuff because they like it. I love the portability of my 2017 MBP 13'.

I've seen posts like this over the last 10+ years online. I'm one of the "oldies" now I guess - I've built gaming PCs and I prefer large batteries and proper cooling. I used a gaming PC with a MASSIVE cool master heatsink (took 2 people to install), redid the thermal paste myself - it was so effective my i7 didn't even need a fan.

That said, how many people would buy a thicker laptop with proper cooling? You and me, maybe. But the millions buying Apple now? Some, yeah. We can dream.

 

[burgman]

I"m looking at the same machine. Looks like the best on the market assuming thermals are ok.

If one USB port will work for you, that’s the biggest criticism of Surface line, lack of ports. Seems Microsoft doesn’t want to directly compete with other Windows hardware manufacturers.

 

[BigMcGuire]

If one USB port will work for you, that’s the biggest criticism of Surface line, lack of ports. Seems Microsoft doesn’t want to directly compete with other Windows hardware manufacturers.

Was surprised to see how expensive the Surface Pro really was, then the dock cost on top of that. I've got a coworker with one. Lots of 8 GB RAM 256GB SSD configurations way over $1000. Costco has some nice sales with the pen now and then.

I see them all over at airports now days (last year).

 

[burgman]

Your beautiful 2019 keyboard is already added to Apples repair program...
When they released the 2018 MBP, those machines were not listed in the repair program because Apple was confident about the new condom design.

When a new machine is added to the program, they know it won’t last. The 2020 redesign will probably fix the keyboard issue permanently.

Which to me makes any Macbook covered under a free 4 year keyboard warranty a good buy.

 

[jerryk]

I like Dave reviews, but remember he is a gamer which means Windows first guy, and big gaming laptop expert.

 

[profcutter]

It is sad, I got into Razr back in the day of Eve Online and WoW pre WOTLK. I still have my gaming mouse from back then and use it today with my MBP. Today, I tried to recommend Razr gaming mice to people I know and they got defective units or had so many problems with them they had to return them.
[doublepost=1558971458][/doublepost]

I wonder how many people would actually buy this? Apple is raking in the billions because people are buying their stuff because they like it. I love the portability of my 2017 MBP 13'.

I've seen posts like this over the last 10+ years online. I'm one of the "oldies" now I guess - I've built gaming PCs and I prefer large batteries and proper cooling. I used a gaming PC with a MASSIVE cool master heatsink (took 2 people to install), redid the thermal paste myself - it was so effective my i7 didn't even need a fan.

That said, how many people would buy a thicker laptop with proper cooling? You and me, maybe. But the millions buying Apple now? Some, yeah. We can dream.

How about some kind of compromise? My retina mbp is far thinner and lighter than what came before it, but still is quite thick compared to my wife’s 2017. Maybe that would be enough to relieve some of the thermal issues, if not all of them? That said, even the retina gets searing hot when you ask it to do any heavy lifting.

 

[Falhófnir]

Imagine what they could do with the old non retina chasis, with modern components. A proper cooling system + brilliant battery life. That would be my dream laptop. Apple will of course never make it. Thin=better even if it means compromising everything.

Arguably they cold get to the same destination without increasing the depth of the computer by using ARM chips - look at how much performance they can squeeze out of a passively cooled A12X, for example. This is what I am really interested to see (though they could still stand to add 0.5mm and make the keyboard travel that much more as well, I think it would solve their problem).

 

[Mockletoy]

It is sad, I got into Razr back in the day of Eve Online and WoW pre WOTLK. I still have my gaming mouse from back then and use it today with my MBP. Today, I tried to recommend Razr gaming mice to people I know and they got defective units or had so many problems with them they had to return them.
[doublepost=1558971458][/doublepost]

I wonder how many people would actually buy this? Apple is raking in the billions because people are buying their stuff because they like it. I love the portability of my 2017 MBP 13'.

I've seen posts like this over the last 10+ years online. I'm one of the "oldies" now I guess - I've built gaming PCs and I prefer large batteries and proper cooling. I used a gaming PC with a MASSIVE cool master heatsink (took 2 people to install), redid the thermal paste myself - it was so effective my i7 didn't even need a fan.

That said, how many people would buy a thicker laptop with proper cooling? You and me, maybe. But the millions buying Apple now? Some, yeah. We can dream.

That's a false dichotomy, though.

Thin and light is awesome for lots of people and lots of use cases, but it isn't good enough or suitable for everyone and every use case. Apple should continue to make thin and light machines, which clearly sell well.

But think how many people buy the thin and light MacBook Pro because it's the only option.

I, for example, would happily buy a thicker, heavier, more powerful machine with proper cooling and a GPU that isn't abysmal. So would many others. But Apple won't build me that machine. So, I am holding onto my 13" 2016 machine, which works well enough, and instead of upgrading it I bought an MSI GE75 with an RTX 2080, 32GB RAM, and a 1TB SSD for $2399. It's not thick or heavy, but it's not thin and light, either, and that's okay because it does what I want it to do. Apple could have had that money, but they for whatever reason don't want it. Of course, Apple would probably charge $6000 for a machine with those specs ...

What many of us can't understand is why Apple only makes thin and lights. Or why they can't just give us an updated ATX tower and let us plug in our own RAM, SSDs, and GPUs. They won't even support nVidia GPUs in external enclosures!

They are courting the subset of "pro" users who would happily pay them for machines that they refuse to make, such as a thicker, more capable notebook or a simple desktop tower. Their product lineup is actively hostile to those users. I really don't understand it.

 

[BigMcGuire]

How about some kind of compromise? My retina mbp is far thinner and lighter than what came before it, but still is quite thick compared to my wife’s 2017. Maybe that would be enough to relieve some of the thermal issues, if not all of them? That said, even the retina gets searing hot when you ask it to do any heavy lifting.

Agreed, thermal issues are getting way out of hand. I prefer to keep things as cool as possible if I can. I don't like to run my 2017 MBP in clamshell mode because it shows 6-10F difference (and it doesn't even have the high temp cpu in the 2018/9).

Mac has always been one to push the thermal limits. My 2014 Mac mini was always burning to the touch - I felt so bad for it, but it lasted me years and years of high temp usage (played WoW on it for 3 years, lol).

I miss my 2015 MBA keyboard too.

Arguably they cold get to the same destination without increasing the depth of the computer by using ARM chips - look at how much performance they can squeeze out of a passively cooled A12X, for example. This is what I am really interested to see (though they could still stand to add 0.5mm and make the keyboard travel that much more as well, I think it would solve their problem).

I was always hoping there would be more talk about putting their A12 chip into a laptop. All this talk about how fast it was... lol.
[doublepost=1558972321][/doublepost]

That's a false dichotomy, though.

Thin and light is awesome for lots of people and lots of use cases, but it isn't good enough or suitable for everyone and every use case. Apple should continue to make thin and light machines, which clearly sell well.

But think how many people buy the thin and light MacBook Pro because it's the only option.

I, for example, would happily buy a thicker, heavier, more powerful machine with proper cooling and a GPU that isn't abysmal. So would many others.

What many of us can't understand is why Apple only makes thin and lights. Or why they can't just give us an updated ATX tower and let us plug in our own RAM, SSDs, and GPUs. They won't even support nVidia GPUs in external enclosures!

They are courting the subset of "pro" users who would happily pay them for machines that they refuse to make, such as a thicker, more capable notebook or a simple desktop tower. Their product lineup is actively hostile to those users. I really don't understand it.

Agreed. I hear you on every single point. Would be nice to have more Mac options. I love Mac OS, I'm invested in it. I love being able to answer phone calls/texts and use Handoff regularly (could write a book about what I like about Mac OS). I just think Apple probably assumes the market isn't worth the effort? That's my assumption. A lot of Pros I know have moved off to Windows. I think Mac really should try to get them back. I was attracted to Mac as a kid because all the Pros I know used Mac.

 

[Glockworkorange]

Interesting. He didn’t come out and say it directly, but essentially he said it’s thermal issues remain & keyboard update doesn’t fill him with any confidence. It’s also just not worth the money as he hilariously alluded to.

Have a watch...

That's a fair review. We know what this machine is.

 

[BigMcGuire]

That's a fair review. We know what this machine is.

Does Tim Cook need to come visit you too? <cough>

 

[Falhófnir]

Agreed, thermal issues are getting way out of hand. I prefer to keep things as cool as possible if I can. I don't like to run my 2017 MBP in clamshell mode because it shows 6-10F difference (and it doesn't even have the high temp cpu in the 2018/9).

Mac has always been one to push the thermal limits. My 2014 Mac mini was always burning to the touch - I felt so bad for it, but it lasted me years and years of high temp usage (played WoW on it for 3 years, lol).

I miss my 2015 MBA keyboard too.



I was always hoping there would be more talk about putting their A12 chip into a laptop. All this talk about how fast it was... lol.

It looks like there is still mounting evidence towards it, a few (alleged) benchmarks here and there, MCK and other analysts saying it's happening, the groundwork on the OS/ Apps side with 'Marzipan', T series chips offloading more and more workload from the main CPU - it's all pointing in this direction, hopefully we might get further clues at WWDC

 

[Glockworkorange]

Does Tim Cook need to come visit you too? <cough>

I should probably get myself back in line, lest I hear a knock at the door....

 

[burgman]

I should probably get myself back in line, lest I hear a knock at the door....

Knocks on doors are so 2010, today it’s your power lines delivering the pulse from HQ, like the old song “Killing me softly”

 

[oldmacs]

I wonder how many people would actually buy this? Apple is raking in the billions because people are buying their stuff because they like it. I love the portability of my 2017 MBP 13'.

I've seen posts like this over the last 10+ years online. I'm one of the "oldies" now I guess - I've built gaming PCs and I prefer large batteries and proper cooling. I used a gaming PC with a MASSIVE cool master heatsink (took 2 people to install), redid the thermal paste myself - it was so effective my i7 didn't even need a fan.

That said, how many people would buy a thicker laptop with proper cooling? You and me, maybe. But the millions buying Apple now? Some, yeah. We can dream.

People bought the 2012 MacBook Pro non retina in droves well into 2016 despite it being outdated slow and more expensive than the MacBook Air.

People don't necessarily buy the MacBook Pro because it is thin and light, a lot would buy it as they need the most powerful laptop with MacOS.

Apple is raking in the billions because they have increased product margins and kept people in the ecosystem. So many people buy MacBooks as status items, or because its too hard to leave the ecosystem, or they love MacOS too much to go to Windows. Doesn't necessarily mean they're super satisfied, it means that it is 'Good Enough'. Sadly while it brings in the money 'Good Enough' isn't my idea of making the best products for people.

The MacBook is convoluted already, so it wouldn't hurt to offer a proper high end device that was less compromised by thinness. I'm sure Apple could do it and make money off it.

 

[BigMcGuire]

People bought the 2012 MacBook Pro non retina in droves well into 2016 despite it being outdated slow and more expensive than the MacBook Air.

People don't necessarily buy the MacBook Pro because it is thin and light, a lot would buy it as they need the most powerful laptop with MacOS.

Apple is raking in the billions because they have increased product margins and kept people in the ecosystem. So many people buy MacBooks as status items, or because its too hard to leave the ecosystem, or they love MacOS too much to go to Windows. Doesn't necessarily mean they're super satisfied, it means that it is 'Good Enough'. Sadly while it brings in the money 'Good Enough' isn't my idea of making the best products for people.

The MacBook is convoluted already, so it wouldn't hurt to offer a proper high end device that was less compromised by thinness. I'm sure Apple could do it and make money off it.

Interesting perspective. Thanks for the info. --- I'm sure Apple could do it and make money off it. If anyone can, they can.

I hope to be still using my 2017 MBP 7 years from now like you are.