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You say I don't know what I am talking about but then you agree with me. :confused:

I never said the only sway they is the decision to back out. I am arguing that the reason this is getting such attention from the police and DA is because of Apple's influence. Money talks when it comes to the law and the legal system. I assure you they are applying a lot of pressure on this investigation.
I don't know how you managed to miss what I said. It was pretty clear IMO.

To re-iterate (for the last time), ...

The only "sway" "influence" or anything that Apple has over the investigation is they can formally back out of pressing charges if they so choose, and the DA at that point *may* (but doesn't have to), take their lead and drop the charges.

You keep saying directly and indirectly that Apple is "applying a lot of pressure" and words to that effect that imply they have some kind of hold or control over the situation. They simply don't.

You are wrong, and your (possibly imaginary), "family of lawyers" are also wrong.
 
He is as responsible for losing the phone as others are for their buying/selling/vandalizing. The others aren't responsible for his losing the phone and he isn't responsible for their buying/selling/vandalizing.

I looked up the penalties for vandalizing, generally up to a year in jail/prison and/or a fine up to $10,000.

No he is not as responsible. At most he was negligent. Intentional acts are much more serious than negligence. Killing someone accidentally is at most manslaughter. Killing someone intentionally is murder.
 
Well I admit I have supported gizmodo up until now. After reading this, what gizmodo and hogan did was stupid. If gizmodo was smart, they wouldn't have bought the phone, they would have told hogan that they would buy any pictures he took of the phone if he chose to tear it apart. I am sure taking pictures of a missing prototype in someone else's possession is far less of a crime than this. Then they could have ran the story with the pictures as "is this a really good iPhone knockoff or the real thing?" type of story.

Buying the thing, then breaking it in the process, then trying to extort Steve Jobs in the progress was really dumb. I don't know what they were thinking. They either have some really bad lawyers or didn't talk to them at all.

I suspect in the end Apple will not file any criminal charges. They want to make these guys sweat a bit, and they want to show the world they can get the police to act on their every whim, but ultimately they do not want the bad press associated with sending people to jail.

When you apply for Tom Hagen's consigliere job, do yourself a favor and don't list any MacRumors readers as a reference.

And try not to count on victims of felonies living in fear of bad press. Criminal cases are controlled by the state, not by the victims, and the tide of public opinion outside of middle schools has already turned, based only on the minimum disclosure of evidence required to obtain a search warrant.

It's going to suck to be them.
 
I'm not really familiar with Apples side of the story so I was wondering if you could fill me in with a few details?

1. How is it known for sure that this iPhone was stolen and not lost at a bar as Gizmodo claim?
2. Assuming it is true that an attempt was made to find the owner of the phone, including as Gizmodo claim waiting for some time at the bar for Powell to return, why is the taking home of the phone viewed as an admission of guilt? It's entirely possible that he took it home intending to ring a contact number in the morning whilst less drunk
3. Upon the bricking of the phone and the discovery of the phone not being a 3GS why is the fact that Apple where contacted being ignored? Surely if this guy is a petty criminal as is being suggested then he would never have contacted them?
4. Why is the fact that Apple are pressing charges indicative that it was a theft? Maybe Powell was scared he would lose his job so made up a theft in order to preserve it?

Yeah, so I was hoping that could be cleared up for me. It's just it seems like people are convinced here that Apple are faultless and Gizmodo are in the wrong (and they probably are to some degree, although whether their actions are criminal or unscrupulous is another question) and I'm not really sure why, can anyone fill me in?
 
I'm not really familiar with Apples side of the story so I was wondering if you could fill me in with a few details?

1. How is it known for sure that this iPhone was stolen and not lost at a bar as Gizmodo claim?
2. Assuming it is true that an attempt was made to find the owner of the phone, including as Gizmodo claim waiting for some time at the bar for Powell to return, why is the taking home of the phone viewed as an admission of guilt? It's entirely possible that he took it home intending to ring a contact number in the morning whilst less drunk
3. Upon the bricking of the phone and the discovery of the phone not being a 3GS why is the fact that Apple where contacted being ignored? Surely if this guy is a petty criminal as is being suggested then he would never have contacted them?
4. Why is the fact that Apple are pressing charges indicative that it was a theft? Maybe Powell was scared he would lose his job so made up a theft in order to preserve it?

Yeah, so I was hoping that could be cleared up for me. It's just it seems like people are convinced here that Apple are faultless and Gizmodo are in the wrong (and they probably are to some degree, although whether their actions are criminal or unscrupulous is another question) and I'm not really sure why, can anyone fill me in?

1. Stolen as it was sold to Gizmodo, or, the founder had no intention of returing and did not follow correct protocol to return to owner.

2. Again, he did not follow correct protocol to return the device to its owner.

3. He contacted AppleCare, ie, the support division. If I found an iPhone, and I knew who the owner was, would I contact AppleCare and ask them about the iPhone or try to return the device?

4. I doubt it, plus, the thing was sold to Gizmodo, with no intent of returning to the owner, Powell.

I suggest you read the investgation affidavit for more detail. Hogan and his friend tried to dislocate/destroy evidence (potential).
 
....
Why is Lam giving up all his independence and showing such love for Apple? ...
It's fairly simple. The media have to be as strong as the people they report on otherwise they get walked all over.

Lam knew he and several people in his organization had committed a crime...

Not one millionaire or billionaire I know doesn't do it for the money. Otherwise they wouldn't be one. Never buy the rationale that Apple or SJ doesn't do it for the money. Look at their pricing and policies.

I will not call you a liar because you make it fairly clear you do not actually know any millionaires or billionaires. It would be impossible for you to be more wrong.
 
1. How is it known for sure that this iPhone was stolen and not lost at a bar as Gizmodo claim?

California statutes concerning found goods define it as theft. They have been quoted multiple times already. Short answer, the law states that if you do not make a reasonable effort to find the owner and you do not wait at least one or more month's, then the item is classified as "stolen" re-appropriating stolen items is theft.

2. Assuming it is true that an attempt was made to find the owner of the phone, including as Gizmodo claim waiting for some time at the bar for Powell to return, why is the taking home of the phone viewed as an admission of guilt? It's entirely possible that he took it home intending to ring a contact number in the morning whilst less drunk

Except that he did not do that nor did he make any effort himself to contact the owner as he is legally required to do. He sold it.

3. Upon the bricking of the phone and the discovery of the phone not being a 3GS why is the fact that Apple where contacted being ignored? Surely if this guy is a petty criminal as is being suggested then he would never have contacted them?
He never contacted Apple - the most that was done was somebody offering to contact Apple, but there is no evidence whatsoever that anybody was contacted that was in any position to recover a lost iPhone.


4. Why is the fact that Apple are pressing charges indicative that it was a theft? Maybe Powell was scared he would lose his job so made up a theft in order to preserve it?
California statutes define it as stolen. Nobody is claiming that it was taken from Powell (not even Powell claims that). It was theft afterwards when our finder decided to sell it despite knowing who the phone belonged to.
 
No he is not as responsible. At most he was negligent. Intentional acts are much more serious than negligence. Killing someone accidentally is at most manslaughter. Killing someone intentionally is murder.

That's obvious, but here is what I was saying. He is 100% responsible for his negligence. The others are 100% responsible for their purposeful decisions. 100%=100%.
 
That's obvious, but here is what I was saying. He is 100% responsible for his negligence. The others are 100% responsible for their purposeful decisions. 100%=100%.

Sure. And the consequences to be paid for negligence are far less severe than those of intentional malfeasance.
 
I'm not really familiar with Apples side of the story so I was wondering if you could fill me in with a few details?

1. How is it known for sure that this iPhone was stolen and not lost at a bar as Gizmodo claim?
It's both. The iPhone was lost (unless something more sinister happened, which we have no evidence for). It was then found, but finding an object and not returning it to the owner or alternatively to the police makes it theft. If you find something that is lost and then sell it for $5000, that is theft.

2. Assuming it is true that an attempt was made to find the owner of the phone, including as Gizmodo claim waiting for some time at the bar for Powell to return, why is the taking home of the phone viewed as an admission of guilt? It's entirely possible that he took it home intending to ring a contact number in the morning whilst less drunk
Who says taking it home is an admission of guilt? That's nonsense. It would have been perfectly fine to take the phone home (that is, in California it is. In other parts of the world that would be the theft. For example, in Germany something that is left in a bar would be in lawful possession of the bar owner, and the bar owner would have to return it to the rightful owner. Removing it from the bar would be theft). No guilt at that point. The theft happened when he kept the phone for weeks and looked for a buyer, instead of looking for the owner.

3. Upon the bricking of the phone and the discovery of the phone not being a 3GS why is the fact that Apple where contacted being ignored? Surely if this guy is a petty criminal as is being suggested then he would never have contacted them?
There is no evidence that Hogan ever tried to contact Apple. It has been reported that an associate of Hogan promised to contact AppleCare; whether that happened, we don't know. However, the law doesn't require contacting the owner, it requires trying to return the phone to its owner, and that has definitely not happened.

4. Why is the fact that Apple are pressing charges indicative that it was a theft? Maybe Powell was scared he would lose his job so made up a theft in order to preserve it?
That, my friend, is libel. You are just claiming that Mr. Powell made false claims that a crime has happened, which is a crime in itself. However, I put this down to you not understanding that completely legally finding a lost object, and then not returning it to the owner, is theft.

Yeah, so I was hoping that could be cleared up for me. It's just it seems like people are convinced here that Apple are faultless and Gizmodo are in the wrong (and they probably are to some degree, although whether their actions are criminal or unscrupulous is another question) and I'm not really sure why, can anyone fill me in?

Crime 1 (theft): The phone was stolen according to Californian law (if you want to read it, google for "theft law california"). Crime 2 (handling stolen goods): Gizmodo bought it knowing they were buying stolen goods. Crime 3 (criminal damage): Gizmodo took the phone apart and put it together again, destroying it in the process. Crime 4 (theft of trade secret): Gizmodo took the stolen phone apart and took photos of the things inside, which were a trade secret since they could only be discovered by committing a crime, and then Gizmodo published the pictures.

I almost wonder if Graham Powell was targeted because somebody found out he was a tester. It appears that it was easy to find out he was a baseband engineer, so I wonder if he was among many targeted to try and steal the phone.

It makes a bit of difference, but not too much. The main difference is that _everything_ about the phone would still be protected as a trade secret; if the phone was lost then anything that an honest finder would have learned about it would not be a trade secret anymore. And if Gizmodo were behind it, then they wouldn't have been handling stolen goods, but responsible for the theft, which would be worse.

Apple's only action so far has been to file a stolen iPhone report and encourage the police to investigate. Apple will not be making the decision whether criminal charges are filed, the district attorney will make that decision. As Steve Jobs clearly stated in an E-mail reply, it's in the DA's hands now.

I'd say Paul Hogan and Gizmodo made the decision that criminal charges will be filed. I think the saying is "if you can't do the time, don't do the crime".

Despite what Steve says, Apple has a big role in deciding if charges are filed. Certain crimes like murder are always prosecuted because the victim is no longer around to file charges, since they're dead. However in cases like this the victim, in is case Apple, has a BIG say in if charges are pressed.

I can't see any reason why Apple wouldn't press charges when their iPhone prototype is stolen, taken apart by someone who in the past offered substantial rewards for stealing Apple's trade secret, photos of trade secrets published, and when the perps offered all kinds of self-serving excuses to make Apple look as bad as possible in the process.

Case 1: Kid steals iPhone prototype from an engineers pocket and takes it home, mum gives him a good ear-bashing and returns the phone to Apple. No charges pressed.

Case 2: (This one here). Charges will be pressed.
 
Sure. And the consequences to be paid for negligence are far less severe than those of intentional malfeasance.

Yeah, I already agreed with that. You shoulda said before, "True, but he is not as legally responsible..." There was some confusion in prior posts between legal and personal responsibility and I was trying to straighten it out. Hopefully it's clear now.

With that libel comment in the prior post: "Did he invent the story?" - no libel, "Perhaps he invented the story." - no libel, "I'm almost positive that he invented the story." - probably no libel, "He invented the story." - libel.
 
I don't know how you managed to miss what I said. It was pretty clear IMO.

To re-iterate (for the last time), ...

The only "sway" "influence" or anything that Apple has over the investigation is they can formally back out of pressing charges if they so choose, and the DA at that point *may* (but doesn't have to), take their lead and drop the charges.

You keep saying directly and indirectly that Apple is "applying a lot of pressure" and words to that effect that imply they have some kind of hold or control over the situation. They simply don't.

You are wrong, and your (possibly imaginary), "family of lawyers" are also wrong.

If you don't think that powerful people and companies don't have sway and don't apply pressure to law enforcement agencies, then I have a bridge to sell you....

The government in this country bends over backwards for the rich and powerful. They don't live by the same rules as others. Most of them can buy themselves out of jail ( see OJ Simpson and just about every other celebrity that is brought up on charges) and buy themselves laws to support their business model (see DMCA and the ACTA treaty).
 
If you don't think that powerful people and companies don't have sway and don't apply pressure to law enforcement agencies, then I have a bridge to sell you....
I get that you're talking about bigger issues, but long as Steve Jobs didn't point a gun at the suspects and force them to make the exchange, as long as the cops didn't coerce the testimony, I don't care.
 
If you don't think that powerful people and companies don't have sway and don't apply pressure to law enforcement agencies, then I have a bridge to sell you....

The government in this country bends over backwards for the rich and powerful. They don't live by the same rules as others. Most of them can buy themselves out of jail ( see OJ Simpson and just about every other celebrity that is brought up on charges) and buy themselves laws to support their business model (see DMCA and the ACTA treaty).

I agree completely. As someone not long out of his teenage years, I've had to see the book thrown at several friends for involuntary offenses, and watched as they ended up in prison for 10+ years after being tried as adults. I'm confident that if these teens had been celebrities with money, they would've served no time at all.

It's disgusting and sad, but unfortunately very true.
 
"Sucks for him. He lost his phone. Shouldn't have lost his phone."

You know Hogan, screw you. It's people like you that make the world a lousy place. Civilization is people choosing not to crap on each other just because they can.

Honestly I think Apple's reaction is a bit over the top, but after reading how much willful thoughtlessness went into this from Hogan, I hope he does get reamed.
 
I agree completely. As someone not long out of his teenage years, I've had to see the book thrown at several friends for involuntary offenses, and watched as they ended up in prison for 10+ years after being tried as adults. I'm confident that if these teens had been celebrities with money, they would've served no time at all.

It's disgusting and sad, but unfortunately very true.

tell me just 1 of those cases, please.
 
Just cause he was driving afterward is no PROOF that he was not intoxicated to some level. Why would someone post “I underestimated how good German beer is,” on a social site if they were not trying to say something along the lines of...wow, that is some potent stuff and it snuck up on me?

Considering American beer tastes like camel's urine and with the same consistency and temperature, it doesn't take too much imagination to assume he was commenting on what a good cold German beer actually tastes like. :D

Actually, Samuel Adams is not a bad brew. Lone Star's okay too. Lagers generally. I'm talking about what passes for beer in most bars, Bud, Millers and other such flat warm dishwater. I seriously gagged the first (and last) time I tasted a Millers on tap. Even Fosters, my god what the hell have you done with that? Blecch. We send you something good and you ruin it. It tastes nothing like the Australian stuff.
 
That's obvious, but here is what I was saying. He is 100% responsible for his negligence. The others are 100% responsible for their purposeful decisions. 100%=100%.


Not exactly. The poster to whom you responded said that "at most" he was negligent. There's a continuum of unintentional acts, and in this instance it could merely have been an accident. No negligence. On the other hand, all of the actions of the parties who took/purchased the prototype were intentional, wrongful acts. There's really no comparison.
 
Lastly...If such a trusted and responsible Engineer is field testing a product then how does he do it from the product BEING IN A BAG ON THE FLOOR, UNSECURE, AT HIS FEET??? That it MIGHT have been knocked over was "casually" mentioned. That such a valuable prototype was left UNSECURE while he went to the bathroom???

I assume that's what the purpose the 3G disguise outer casing was for, to account for any eventuality. So people wouldn't know it's a 4G even if they stepped on it. And it worked, the first guy who handed it to Hogan had no idea.

And I also assume his bag contained other important material (at least to him if anything) like maybe even schematics he was taking home to work on (who knows) that he was being very responsible for. He did indeed make sure to take the bag with him when he left. Believing the phone to be safely inside it. You don't have to be drunk to not check your phone is still in your bag where you put it.
 
You gotta read up more on corporate takeover. If you haven't known by now, SJ is quite a spiteful person and his personality is now fused with the Apple we know. Yes, no one is contesting about SJ's motivation to innovate. If you don't much about Pixar, the creative guys don't really like him around. SJ is primarily a marketing person. He's one person who now surrounds himself with really good people. Sadly, not all of them gets to shine. And not all technologies you see from Apple now are originally conceived by Apple. SJ made some good acquisition decisions. Have to give him that.

But SJ is more or less a bully. It's sad that people don't see it. Also, Apple is like the big brother of its own 1984 ad. It's pathetic that people submitting to big brother. Sometimes I wondering why people can say so much about the movie, The Matrix and not get it in real life. Tragic.:(

How does this relate to stolen iPhone?
 
Not exactly. The poster to whom you responded said that "at most" he was negligent. There's a continuum of unintentional acts, and in this instance it could merely have been an accident.

Yeah, but as I clarified, I wasn't talking about legal negligence/responsibility. If I put my car keys on a store counter while I get change out of my pocket and forget the keys, that was negligent, but not in a legal sense like firing a gun straight up is.

People, people, people, the new phone isn't the 4G iPhone, just the 4th iPhone and 3rd 3G iphone (unless Apple wants to play games with names).
 
You gotta read up more on corporate takeover. If you haven't known by now, SJ is quite a spiteful person and his personality is now fused with the Apple we know. Yes, no one is contesting about SJ's motivation to innovate. If you don't much about Pixar, the creative guys don't really like him around. SJ is primarily a marketing person. He's one person who now surrounds himself with really good people. Sadly, not all of them gets to shine. And not all technologies you see from Apple now are originally conceived by Apple. SJ made some good acquisition decisions. Have to give him that.

But SJ is more or less a bully. It's sad that people don't see it. Also, Apple is like the big brother of its own 1984 ad. It's pathetic that people submitting to big brother. Sometimes I wondering why people can say so much about the movie, The Matrix and not get it in real life. Tragic.:(

A personal therapist may be covered by your health plan. I suggest you look into it. That is, of course, unless you enjoy suffering from paranoid delusions.
 
Reading a little helps one make a fairly educated guess. I also was not there and can not say he was or was not drunk. HOWEVER, when one reads his own posts on facebook, and some of the previous stories posted HERE on MacRumors BY ARN did originally say he was having a grand old time.

Granted the source of this link can be questioned, but some of the evidence coming from the Engineers own facebook account can validate some of it.
http://gizmodo.com/5520438/how-apple-lost-the-next-iphone.

Also doing a little research does wonders: http://www.gourmethausstaudt.com/
This is a "BEER GARDEN", German Specialty Store and "German Beer School"

Again, although this is not "proof" that he was "drunk" it is proof that he knew where he was going, to celebrate a birthday, with the intent to consume alcohol. With this in mind, being a responsible, trusted engineer with a top secret, classified, trade secret loaded device that is "invaluable" The enginerr was not responsible in his actions and was NOT "testing" this device at his little celebration. He is therefore partly responsible for losing the stupid phone.
Oh. My. God. This man intended to consume alcohol and have a good time??? He could be stoned for less under Sharia law. Clearly he is a degenerate.

AND @ jb1280, I DID NOT and STATE SO AGAIN, condone the actions or support any of the actions of those individuals that took the prototype and the actions that occurred after the loss of the device. I am only "discussing" the irresponsible actions of the Engineer and that he is just as guilty and irresponsible as the rest of them.
The part you can't seem to get through your thick head is that you are entirely and utterly wrong. We understand that you have a bizarre and legally nonsensical opinion based on your own speculation (or "educated guess" as you called it). We just don't care nor do we agree with it.
 
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