Developers Must Share Phone Number and Address on EU App Store to Meet 'Trader' Requirement Starting in October

[surferfb]

"I have to have my name on the door bell" what???

Yep. No apartment numbers.

I’m what blew my mind when I moved to Germany is that you have to anmelden (register) with the local government and give them your address and copy of your lease to prove you live there within two weeks of moving in. And then when you’re moving out you have to abmelden (de-register). All of this has to be done in person too (or at least it did in the mid 2000s).

No idea if that’s a normal thing in Europe, but as an American it definitely felt very Big Brother-y.

 

[zxski]

Apple decide to ignore what EU is actual requiring and from whom. Here is beginning of section about contact info in DSA:

So if your enterprise has less then 50 employees you don't apply to this requierment

The DSA applies to providers and online platforms, not to developers. These platforms MUST publish info on the traders that are active on those platforms.

The exceptions for micro and small enterprises apply to providers and online platforms, not to developers. Apple is not a small or micro enterprise and therefore is not exempt from publishing traders information.

So the "micro and small enterprises" has nothing to do with the devs that publish their apps on the platform, and all devs who are traders on the platform must comply.

 

[firewood]

All this would not be an issue for hobbyists developers, if there was a way to download apps from say GitHub and just side-load them.

If anyone posts a project containing complete source code on GitHub, anyone else with a Mac running Xcode can side-load that app today. So this is a non-issue for hobbyist open source developers who want to post source code on GitHub.

Perhaps a solution for non open source apps is to make two versions of each app, a paid version for the U.S., and a different free or “Lite” version for the EU.

 

[JLL]

The DSA applies to providers and online platforms, not to developers. These platforms MUST publish info on the traders that are active on those platforms.

The exceptions for micro and small enterprises apply to providers and online platforms, not to developers. Apple is not a small or micro enterprise and therefore is not exempt from publishing traders information.

So the "micro and small enterprises" has nothing to do with the devs that publish their apps on the platform, and all devs who are traders on the platform must comply.

No, It says "...allowing consumers to conclude distance contracts with traders that qualify as micro or small enterprises"

The qualifications is about the traders as far as I read the text.

It doesn't help that they also talk about online platforms on both sides of the "fence".

 

[contacos]

If there are two people in an apartment building with the same first and last name and one of them moves to a new address, how does the mail service know which mail to forward to the new address?

For general mail, you can request a forwarding service at the postal office, e.g. for a year, but you need to pay for it. Official mails like from your health insurance, pension, police, job etc. they get automatically informed once you move and you register at a new address (which you are legally required to do within 2 weeks, otherwise you can get a fine)

 

[Sophisticatednut]

You would have no legal recourse regardless, because almost every EULA say something to the effect that the developer assumes zero responsibility for damage caused by using the software.

Well such agreements are illegal in EU

 

[svish]

Interesting to see the new requirements.

 

[NagasakiGG]

Reminder this is the company that supposedly cares about privacy.

EDIT: The guy below is correct, this is not Apple's decision. My bad.

Sorry but where is that a bad thing?
Often If you write devs an Email you either get no response, or some automatic sh*t after few weeks. So that's fair imho for them to provide a telephone number where you can call do. If they offer a service (App), you also have to offer support for that. Period.

Yep. No apartment numbers.

I’m what blew my mind when I moved to Germany is that you have to anmelden (register) with the local government and give them your address and copy of your lease to prove you live there within two weeks of moving in. And then when you’re moving out you have to abmelden (de-register). All of this has to be done in person too (or at least it did in the mid 2000s).

No idea if that’s a normal thing in Europe, but as an American it definitely felt very Big Brother-y.

It is a thing in almost every civilized country. Especially if you're foreigner, as it usually only have a limited time in staying in the Schengenarea. I don't get it why it is such a problem just going to the Einwohnermeldeamt and (de-)register yourself. In most cities you can also do it online and/or gets sent to the old authority automatically as soon a you move to another city. That has nothing to do with "Big Brother". Also it might influence your paid taxes, depending where you live / stay - yes, also in Germany.

 

[ginkobiloba]

Good, the most annoying trend for companies now is to hide their contact info in the depths of the abyss never to be found. So hard to just find a general contact number for companies, even then the stupid auto voice annoys the hell out of you and if you select the wrong option it hangs the call up.

Should be a law in general that all companies that trade and sell to the public need a point of contact via phone that is answered without any automated options to select. Route 1 is someone picks up the phone and fines should be given if they don't maintain it efficiently.

So you want only big corporations to thrive and do business, and small businesses to get out of the way . Cool.

 

[darkpaw]

Good, the most annoying trend for companies now is to hide their contact info in the depths of the abyss never to be found. So hard to just find a general contact number for companies

I agree, but for companies. Individual hobbyists shouldn't have to provide this personal information.

The options for us are either:
1. Knock all our prices down to 0 in the EU. We develop the apps, keep them up to date with the new technologies Apple brings out, and we get 0 for that effort; or
2. Remove our apps from the EU. We then make no money from apps in those 27 countries, and concentrate on other markets, like the US.

One thing a lot of people don't realise is that for individual hobbyist developers with an active Developer Program account, it's very likely that we used our Apple ID for the Program, so now, would it be possible for anyone in the EU who maybe has a grudge against a developer for some issue they got in an app, to try and lock us out of our iCloud account?

 

[ginkobiloba]

You only have to browse x/Twitter for a couple of days to understand that there is a staggering amount of incredibly dumb and truly insane people out there. A big corporation has the means to shield itself from them, thru filters : they will be stopped at the office entrance, their calls filtered thru the receptionist, etc..
A lone developer that works from home simply won’t have the means and energy to stop idiots from showing at their door and threaten their family because they got upset by the latest update to a casual game.

Ironically, the EU has always been place that protected consumers while punishing and making life harder for small businesses more than big corporations.

 

[MilaM]

If anyone posts a project containing complete source code on GitHub, anyone else with a Mac running Xcode can side-load that app today. So this is a non-issue for hobbyist open source developers who want to post source code on GitHub.

Perhaps a solution for non open source apps is to make two versions of each app, a paid version for the U.S., and a different free or “Lite” version for the EU.

Sure. But you have to reinstall it every seven days or so, because who knows why. And installing tens of gigabytes worth of software (Xcode) just to compile the app bundle is also not ideal. Who has that much space on their hard drive?

 

[MilaM]

One thing a lot of people don't realise is that for individual hobbyist developers with an active Developer Program account, it's very likely that we used our Apple ID for the Program, so now, would it be possible for anyone in the EU who maybe has a grudge against a developer for some issue they got in an app, to try and lock us out of our iCloud account?

You seem to be affected by this new rule. Can you confirm, that the requirement to publish contact details only applies to apps that have some commercial component?

Using your personal iCloud account is off course not ideal. Is there no way to move the app to a different dedicated Apple ID to better shield your contact details?

 

[Mainyehc]

lol what?

“lol what?” what? At least where I come from, we have these legal entities called “unipessoal”, i.e. one-person companies. More often than not, they’ll share the same physical address and phone number as, you’ve guessed it, the single people running each of them. They still have a separate, corporate tax ID number and, guess what, their personal information is somewhat private. There are platforms that provide access to that data, but they’re paid subscriptions mostly for accountants, so there’s still a bit of privacy against stalkers. As for consumer protection, any company is obliged, by law, to have a complaints book, be it physical or digital, so it’s not like customers are getting shafted left and right with no recourse.

 

[darkpaw]

You seem to be affected by this new rule. Can you confirm, that the requirement to publish contact details only applies to apps that have some commercial component?

Using your personal iCloud account is off course not ideal. Is there no way to move the app to a different dedicated Apple ID to better shield your contact details?

It looks like any individual or business who makes any money from the App Store will have to have their details published.

I will try and move the apps to a different Apple ID, but there have been so many issues with that in the past that it might end up breaking stuff.

 

[cyb3rdud3]

Nonsensical take. I'm not shady at all, I collect zero data on anyone, don't sell anyones ad information, yet I don't want the public having my phone number and address. Privacy should be a basic human right especially in today's day and age.

It is a basic human right, especially within the EU. Just like it is a consumer right to have access to contact details for the service you are consuming and paying for. So when you are selling your services, you have obligations regardless of your legal entity. And to protect your personal liability it would be extremely unwise to not protect yourself and keep the services at arms' length.

For everyone who is for this, please post your home address, name, and phone number in the thread since you're so confident this is a good thing.

Irrelevant, businesses, traders, have to do that now already on their websites. You are thinking like a consumer.

There is no such privacy for business organization.

Exactly!

Not every developer is a business organization. There are tons of indies.

True, perhaps not in legal entities but they are business organizations by their actions. Personal privacy is one concern, but I'd be more concerned about personal liability. They should think about that twice as it is not that smart to do that with personal liability.

Indies should be selling under an LLC for asset protection. If you don't, any legal action could come back directly to your personal finances and your possessions. If an LLC is sued, you would be protected, and just the LLC's assets would be in play.

It's just dumb to be running a business or selling anything under your own name, no matter how small or how little you make. Even a free app should be posted under an LLC.

Naturally there are other legal entity forms available besides an LLC But in principle, very sound advice.

I’m not sure what part of “not everyone sellling is a business” is eluding you and everyone else.

You don’t have to be a business to sell on the App Store you can be an individual. This law helps no one and only hurts the indies.

When you are selling you are acting as a business, providing a service. Yes your legal entity on the App Store can still be an individual opposed to a representative for another legal entity, but it isn't really a smart thing to do. You aren't protecting yourself at all.

Publicly available and published at point of sales are two very different things. Email/website is reasonable for customer support for small apps. Requiring the app store to maintain current address and phone number would also be reasonable in case the website/email contacts aren't responsive and for legal reasons.

Unfortunately for you it doesn't matter what you find reasonable, the law is what matters. And a physical address and telephone number has been required for donkey years Nothing new here really. How you provide support has nothing to do with this.

But having to deal with phone support is an unnecessary burden for small developers. What good would it do for someone that only speaks German to call me if I don't speak German?

This isn't about having to provide phone support at all.

The requirement to publish a phone number is pretty silly, I admit. An e-mail address would be totally sufficient in my opinion.

It is the law, your opinion is irrelevant. And that law has been in existence for a long time.

The obligation to provide a business address on the other hand is nothing new. It's been a requirement for websites for decades in the EU. I'm suprised it wasn't enforced earlier in the context of app stores to be honest.

Not just the address, telephone number as well

I'm not interested in discussing your abstraction any further. Thanks.

Email/website is a perfectly reasonable support method for small apps. Providing phone support in multiple languages to anyone that browses your listing is not.


Sure, at added expense.

How, or if, you provide support has nothing to do with this. Nothing at all.

In Italy it's perfectly fine to sell something to third parties, consumers and business included, and be legally classified as an individual and NOT a company ("persona fisica").

Many countries have such constructs. They can work for some people, until they don't work. And then it is often too late, and the liabilities can spill over and impact you personally.

Bottomline : If you’re european, don’t be a lone indie developper. Be a big corporation. Be Facebook or be nothing.

Nonsense, just got to comply and play by the rules.

One thing a lot of people don't realise is that for individual hobbyist developers with an active Developer Program account, it's very likely that we used our Apple ID for the Program, so now, would it be possible for anyone in the EU who maybe has a grudge against a developer for some issue they got in an app, to try and lock us out of our iCloud account?

I set up the Organization for the legal entity with one Apple ID on the program, and then once that was verified with address, contract details etc. Then I invited my personal account that is linked to my Macbook etc. So it is easy to separate it.

 

[chmania]

Apple today reminded developers who plan to distribute apps in the European Union to submit their trader status, a requirement that will see the App Store sharing the address, phone number, and email address of each developer. The information will be displayed on a developer's App Store page.

As displaying trader status is a Digital Services Act requirement in the European Union, Apple does not have a choice on implementing the feature. Developer contact information will be displayed on the App Store product page when an app is distributed in any of the 27 territories in the EU.

That's correct, you cannot be anonymous. And, there are liabilities too.

 

[chmania]

I’m what blew my mind when I moved to Germany is that you have to anmelden (register) with the local government and give them your address and copy of your lease to prove you live there within two weeks of moving in. And then when you’re moving out you have to abmelden (de-register). All of this has to be done in person too (or at least it did in the mid 2000s).

That's correct, security being the main reason. It's quite normal, and nobody cares. You can be fined, if you don't register.

 

[chmania]

I agree, but for companies. Individual hobbyists shouldn't have to provide this personal information.

No difference. They have to, if they are doing business in the EU. And, if they are in "shady" business, better stay out of the EU.

 

[MilaM]

It is the law, your opinion is irrelevant. And that law has been in existence for a long time.

I know it's the law. Am I not allowed to have an opinion about the question? I still think an e-mail addess and a mail address should be sufficient for app publishers.

For my own small business I just rent a bunch of phone numbers for a total of 2 EUR per month. I even have a VoIP fax attached to it 😆. It's really not such a big hurdle as some have claimed here.

 

[arobert3434]

Speaking as a consumer in the EU, I would be happy simply with the support and privacy links Apple already requires developers to provide working. There are plenty of apps out there where the support link is just dead. The EU ought to ask Apple to remove listings with dead links until they comply. That would be something actually useful. A phone number and address are not things I would use when wanting help with or to complain about an app, and I don't really understand how anyone thought this was a good idea. By all means, require Apple to collect and verify this information internally, and provide it to law enforcement if needed. But meanwhile, why aren't they requiring every item in physical stores to list this information? It's not like it would in any way be easy for a consumer to get that contact info for the bananas sitting in the produce section and, again, as a consumer, I'd be more interested in knowing where my food comes from than my apps! Rules and regulations like this that seem purely a product of bureaucracy rather than helping anyone or anything are one of the biggest reasons residents can get negative about being in the EU. I'm sorry that in this case it makes life worse for people elsewhere as well.

 

[laptech]

I think people are not understanding the 'trader' part of this. The EU have very strict and specific laws on trading. For far too long people have been buying and/or selling stuff for years and getting away with without paying proper taxes, this is because many people think what they are doing comes under 'hobby' or 'hobbyist' or some other term and thus do not have to register themselves as a trader. Unfortunately for them the EU disagrees. If you buy and/or sell on a regular basis or produce something in bulk that you either sell or give away for free, you are classed as a 'trader' and thus must register with the relevant authorities. Being a trader means you have to have certain protections in place as a trader, a license to trade, business license, trader insurance, trader liability insurance, health and safety certificates.

The EU updated the Electronic Commerce Directive 2000 which was brought in in the year 2000. It was updated in 2022 and renamed to the Digital Services Act which is to addresses illegal content, transparent advertising and disinformation. The purpose of the update was so it covered today's modern online world.

source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Services_Act

For way to long people have been using the online world to avoid responsibility when trading goods and services. Slowly the EU is updating it's old laws to now accommodate and include the online world meaning those intending to avoid responsibilities using the online world to do so can now be caught.

Do not blame the EU, blame the tens of thousands of people who use the online world to trade illegally, basically avoiding having to register as a trader. One area that is going to be caught out heavily in this is Facebook Marketplace because people use that to regularly sell stuff. Selling the odd one or two items will probably be acceptable but doing so on a weekly basis, nope, the DSA will now require that person to register as a 'trader' and if they do not the EU could go after Facebook in getting the marketplace such down.

Ebay, Amazon and Facebook Marketplace have had rogue/fake sellers for years. Yes each of them say they try to catch as many as they can but now with the DSA, all 3 of them will be expected to get sellers to pass on their phone number and address and if they don't they will get their account closed or new accounts prevented.

The DSA is to protect consumers from the illegal activities of those who trade online. It's been a long time coming.

 

[nicolas_s]

I’m right there with you. My apps are my “hobby business” and don’t generate nearly enough income to justify the expenses I’d incur for “proper” business resources. I will simply opt out of any opportunities with the EU market. It’s just so surprising to me that the EU would snub individual-run businesses this way in favor larger ones.

As someone said on this thread, if you're a solo developer, just rent a virtual office and mailbox, it's only 75 euros per month.

 

[darkpaw]

It is a basic human right, especially within the EU. Just like it is a consumer right to have access to contact details for the service you are consuming and paying for.

Right, but when you put an app on the App Store you have to provide a "Support URL", which is described by Apple as "A URL with support information for your app." If someone wants help with an app of mine, they can use that link.

For my apps, that URL points to a website with help and guides for that app, plus a contact form where anyone can contact me. They don't see my email when they use the contact form, and when I reply (which I always do), I use an email address I can easily change if it gets spammed or abused.

Publishing my personal/Apple ID email on the App Store is a massive no-no.

 

[darkpaw]

No difference. They have to, if they are doing business in the EU. And, if they are in "shady" business, better stay out of the EU.

I fundamentally disagree.

A company won't be providing the email address or phone number of an actual employee; it'll be a catch-all account and phone number that gets dealt with by employees.

An individual hobbyist's details are their private, personal details. We do not have the money to rent a business address and phone number. You people seem to think we're making tens of thousands of € a month. We aren't. We're lucky to get a couple of sales a week.

Also, why raise the idea that individual hobbyist developers are "shady"? That's just plain rude. I can tell you, Meta and Google are far shadier than I have ever been or ever will be!