Do I sense a major price drop on the Cinema 20"?

[zoetropeuk]

Uh.. Huh... and Apple's Pink tinge problem and Color Calibration Problems go along way to adding merit to the SWOP Certification. I hope you know that almost all Monitor makers including Apple get their LCD Panels from the same companies Primarily Samsung and LG.

They may get them from the same manufacturer but like I said, Apple pays a premium to get the best panels. It is therefore impossible for other companies to get displays that are as good as Apple from the same manufacturer.

Sure Apple's Color Accuracy is without a doubt top notch but there are others that have SWOP certification that are priced Cheaper

Like what:

Eizo Colour Edge 21.3" - $2599
Sony 23" SDM-P232W - $2499

and the only other non Apple certified monitor:

Sony Artisan CRT 21" $1799

up against Apple's 23" at $1999

So what, a few people out of the thousands have had problems with a pink tinge. I've had much worse from LaCie Electron Blue IV screens, try getting a replacement from LaCie. I'd much rather deal with Apple. The Sony LCDs that were delivered to a company I worked for were unusable. 8 of out 10 had a huge area right down the centre of the screen that was completely out of focus. They were replaced quickly but that's not the point, all manufacturers have problems from time to time.

I've had a few problems with my G5 and Apple has fixed them straight away.

 

[gekko513]

I don't know what SWOP is, but it's good to see that there may be some reason why Apple's displays are more expensive than Dell's after all.

 

[zelmo]

I don't know what SWOP is, but it's good to see that there may be some reason why Apple's displays are more expensive than Dell's after all.

http://www.swop.org/
SWOP is a color standard for monitors and output devices. It doesn't really come into relevance for the average home user, but is pretty important if you are a photographer or designer, I would think. Nothing worse than spending hours tweaking the color on a photo only to get a proof from your printer with a completely different look than what you see on your monitor. Of course, you still need to keep your monitor calibrated, and make sure your print provider is also using SWOP certified proofs.

 

[SilentPanda]

So I'm assuming since I"m a home user that uses Safari as my main power app and is color blind doesn't really need to worry about SWOP?

 

[zoetropeuk]

So I'm assuming since I"m a home user that uses Safari as my main power app and is color blind doesn't really need to worry about SWOP?

That's right. If I was a typical home user I wouldn't but an Apple Display, I wouldn't buy a Dell out of principal but there are plenty to choose from.

Having a SWOP certified set-up allows me to do away with expensive printed proofs. It means I can use the Cinema display as my proofer and know that what I see on-screen is what I'll get when I send it to print.

 

[Koodauw]

I would love to buy an Apple 20'' display. However, for the price, I can get an 17'' Widescreen, and a G5 for only $100 more! (iMac G5 if you didnt catch that) Not to mention that my PB can't even hook up to the Apple displays. VGA only on the PB's was a bad call.

I'll consider this Dell though. Stnad could be better looking, bu all in all, not bad.

 

[SilentPanda]

I would love to buy an Apple 20'' display. However, for the price, I can get an 17'' Widescreen, and a G5 for only $100 more! (iMac G5 if you didnt catch that) Not to mention that my PB can't even hook up to the Apple displays. VGA only on the PB's was a bad call.

I'll consider this Dell though. Stnad could be better looking, bu all in all, not bad.

What PB do you have? I thought all the recent PB's were mini-DVI which could let you output to DVI...

 

[SilentPanda]

Well my 2005FPW is shipping by the 22nd of this month the nice Dell lady says... I'll let you know how it turns out. If you want to order one make sure you know it's part #320-4111. The first few order takers had no idea what it was I wanted to order... and it's almost impossible to find on Dell's web site...

 

[Chip NoVaMac]

http://www.swop.org/
SWOP is a color standard for monitors and output devices. It doesn't really come into relevance for the average home user, but is pretty important if you are a photographer or designer, I would think. Nothing worse than spending hours tweaking the color on a photo only to get a proof from your printer with a completely different look than what you see on your monitor. Of course, you still need to keep your monitor calibrated, and make sure your print provider is also using SWOP certified proofs.

Raises a question for my use. I have a PB rev. B 12". So far for my uses in DTP and photography the 12" screen is pretty darn close to perfect. I am wondering if this new Dell screen will be close enough except for those that are very demanding.

For example - a printer that I have just begun to use, mentions a "pleasing color" standard. And so far my first 4 color insert proofs matches pretty darn well to the PB 12" screen. If I can expect this out of the Dell, it might make a nice Xmas Gift.

 

[zelmo]

Raises a question for my use. I have a PB rev. B 12". So far for my uses in DTP and photography the 12" screen is pretty darn close to perfect. I am wondering if this new Dell screen will be close enough except for those that are very demanding.

For example - a printer that I have just begun to use, mentions a "pleasing color" standard. And so far my first 4 color insert proofs matches pretty darn well to the PB 12" screen. If I can expect this out of the Dell, it might make a nice Xmas Gift.

Well, we can use almost any CRT in our prepress area and use calibration tools to match our contract color proof, which meets SWOP standards. I really don't know if there are effective calibration tools for LCD displays, but I'd imagine they are out there. If so, the only question is how often you'd have to calibrate. We do a bi-monthly check on ours, and hardly ever have to make adjustments. Of course, you still need a neutral environment, the proper lighting, and a good eye, too.
I think "pleasing color" means different things to different printers. In our shop, when we describe pleasing color, we mean that we cannot guarantee that every image and every process build color on the proof will be matched on press EXACTLY. Fact is, there isn't a proofing system out there that can account for the effects of ghosting, dot gain for specific paper brands, or the fact that you put a 2" square skyline photo in the middle of a big honking build of 485 and don't expect the sky to go a little magenta on you. Pleasing color means we'll match the images, but not promise the same for the process builds.
If pleasing color is all you need, and you are already happy with the results on your PB, you should be good to go with the Dell.

 

[Chip NoVaMac]

Well, we can use almost any CRT in our prepress area and use calibration tools to match our contract color proof, which meets SWOP standards. I really don't know if there are effective calibration tools for LCD displays, but I'd imagine they are out there. If so, the only question is how often you'd have to calibrate. We do a bi-monthly check on ours, and hardly ever have to make adjustments. Of course, you still need a neutral environment, the proper lighting, and a good eye, too.
I think "pleasing color" means different things to different printers. In our shop, when we describe pleasing color, we mean that we cannot guarantee that every image and every process build color on the proof will be matched on press EXACTLY. Fact is, there isn't a proofing system out there that can account for the effects of ghosting, dot gain for specific paper brands, or the fact that you put a 2" square skyline photo in the middle of a big honking build of 485 and don't expect the sky to go a little magenta on you. Pleasing color means we'll match the images, but not promise the same for the process builds.
If pleasing color is all you need, and you are already happy with the results on your PB, you should be good to go with the Dell.

Thanks, a very good explanation. I know that with the web system my printer is using that we were able to look at the CMYK values and see how just how well they matched. I took away from my meeting with the printer that if I had a value of 35C 20M 10Y 50K, I could be with a couple points or two in the final output. Pretty darn close IMO.

 

[Abulia]

This bad boy on the Dell online store yet? I can't find it. Have to send a link to my wife for the XMas present!

 

[homerjward]

i think the vga is the best thing about this. dual 20"ers with an imac. 3360x1050

 

[madoka]

From TB:

Dell Home has the new Dell UltraSharp 2005FPW 20.1-inch Widescreen Flat Panel LCD Monitor with Height Adjustable Stand, 1680x1050, 600:1 contrast, 12ms response, DVI, VGA, SVideo, Composite Video input on sale for $679.15 shipped free.

Man, Apple better drop that price soon. Double the price of the Dell just won't cut it.

 

[homerjward]

here's the linkety btw if people couldn't find it. 12ms response time and i think +/-88 means 176 degrees. because i guess like 88 in either direction? either way, costs more than my laptop so i cant even afford that...

 

[Little Endian]

From TB:

Dell Home has the new Dell UltraSharp 2005FPW 20.1-inch Widescreen Flat Panel LCD Monitor with Height Adjustable Stand, 1680x1050, 600:1 contrast, 12ms response, DVI, VGA, SVideo, Composite Video input on sale for $679.15 shipped free.

Man, Apple better drop that price soon. Double the price of the Dell just won't cut it.

Could not Agree more!! Apple is making a killing on those who buy the 20inch Cinema Display. It has long been overpriced and Dell as well as others are driving that point home. $1299 is way to high for anyone to justify. Come on Apple $1299!! $500 more will buy a 20" imac G5 or two of those Dell Monitors for the same money. The 20" Cinema Display had better drop to $999 by Macworld or else I will buy something other than Apple when I purchase my new G5 in Janurary

 

[SilentPanda]

Mine just shipped today... I should have it by the end of this week/early next week. I'm working on getting Dell to refund me from the $799 I paid for it to the $679.15 it's offered for now though... not sure if they'll do it but... I ordered it Friday and the price change was on Monday... I knew I shoulda waited...

Hmmm... I can apparently get the difference if I refuse the package and then reorder... which is really a full refund and reorder... I'm gonna bug them some more to see if I can just get a credit... it seems so much easier for both parties that way...

 

[the future]

As always, buy what you need. Apple LCDs are certainly high-end, best panels from the manufacturer, SWOP, Alu enclosure, USB 2 and Firewire hub etc. If you don't need such a high-end display, buy something else. But I, personally, would never buy a display before checking it out in real life (i.e. a shop) - which pretty much rules Dell out. For me, the display is quite simply the most important part of the setup, as I stare at it for several hours a day. And my 20" Cinema Display amazes me every day. Put a price tag on that.

 

[Chip NoVaMac]

As always, buy what you need. Apple LCDs are certainly high-end, best panels from the manufacturer, SWOP, Alu enclosure, USB 2 and Firewire hub etc. If you don't need such a high-end display, buy something else. But I, personally, would never buy a display before checking it out in real life (i.e. a shop) - which pretty much rules Dell out. For me, the display is quite simply the most important part of the setup, as I stare at it for several hours a day. And my 20" Cinema Display amazes me every day. Put a price tag on that.

That is the biggest draw back for me and the Dell.

 

[Little Endian]

As always, buy what you need. Apple LCDs are certainly high-end, best panels from the manufacturer, SWOP, Alu enclosure, USB 2 and Firewire hub etc. If you don't need such a high-end display, buy something else. But I, personally, would never buy a display before checking it out in real life (i.e. a shop) - which pretty much rules Dell out. For me, the display is quite simply the most important part of the setup, as I stare at it for several hours a day. And my 20" Cinema Display amazes me every day. Put a price tag on that.

Agreed, I would not buy the Dell before getting to see one in person. However one could always buy and return if it were that bad. Hopefully Silent Panda as well as other who purchase the Display can give us insight to it's quality. I DO NOT doubt Apple's 20" Cinema Display as far as visual Quality as well as fit and finish however one can put a price tag on that and it's $1299 which is about twice as much as the Dell which I find to be excessive. I don't think that Apple's 20 inch Cinema Display warrants a 100% premium unless it came with a Zero Dead Pixel Guarantee and came with a three year warranty Standard. How about Being able to do more than tilt, can apple say swivel and turn? now that would have been nice for Apple to have done at a $1299 price point.

Another option is Formac Displays
Only $899 and they have a Zero Dead Pixel Policy sure not Widescreen but one acutally gets more work space and the specs out class Apple's in most regards and I have used the Older Platinum and Oxygen Series Displays and must admit they rival Apple displays in Visual Quality and Color Accuracy.

http://www.formac.com/p_bin/?cid=solutions_displays_gallery2010_01

You allready paid $1299 for an overpriced Cinema Display so you feel obliged to make yourself feel better. Apple will probably drop the price Considerably in a few months or they will see Cinema Display sales Drop off.

Remember the Rumors before the release of the Current Aluminum Displays? The Rumors stated that they would sell for $999 however that seemed to change at last minute so they have been overpriced for awhile. I aslo wonder how many Mac Users out their actually turn to third Party Manufacturers for an LCD because not everybody is willing to spend $1299 for a Display. Apple needs to have a Sub $1000 Apple Display option as they could sell quite a few more and still charge a nice premium over the competition. Arguing that the 20" Cinema Display is not overpriced is about as bad as arguing that the recently discontinued 17" Studio Display at $699 was'nt overpriced!!

I don't think that all of Apple's Cinema Lineup is overprice as I can Argue that the 23" and especially the 30" Cinema Displays are exceptional Values. It is on the low end that Apple is weak. uh wait.....$1299 aint quite low end in price now is it... or even mid range.....

 

[the future]

$1299 which is about twice as much as the Dell which I find to be excessive.

The Dell display is 799, isn't it? Twice that would be 1599, not 1299.

I don't think that Apple's 20 inch Cinema Display warrants a 100% premium unless it came with a Zero Dead Pixel Guarantee and came with a three year warranty Standard.

I absolutely agree that Apple LCDs should have a three year warranty.

How about Being able to do more than tilt, can apple say swivel and turn?

I don't think that's essential. If you do, buy something else.

Another option is Formac Displays.

Formac's "support" is so horrible I would never buy one of their products (again). Fool me once...

You allready paid $1299 for an overpriced Cinema Display so you feel obliged to make yourself feel better.

Hey, analyze yourself, will ya. I'm just happy with my display, that's all. I think you feel the need to convince yourself that you can do without a Cinema Display in all it's sleek, alu-tastic glory...

Apple will probably drop the price Considerably in a few months or they will see Cinema Display sales Drop off.

As the new Dell display is the first non-Apple ws 20" display (that I know of), it will be indeed interesting if we will see more of those in the future and if the competition will make the ACD prices drop. But I wouldn't hold my breath.

Remember the Rumors before the release of the Current Aluminum Displays? The Rumors stated that they would sell for $999 however that seemed to change at last minute so they have been overpriced for awhile.

Rumors are almost always too optimistic. The iPod mini, for example, was supposed to cost 149-199. I don't think the ACD prices were changed "at last minute".

I aslo wonder how many Mac Users out their actually turn to third Party Manufacturers for an LCD because not everybody is willing to spend $1299 for a Display. Apple needs to have a Sub $1000 Apple Display option as they could sell quite a few more and still charge a nice premium over the competition.

Absolutely. Where is that 17" ACD??

 

[SilentPanda]

I don't really feel like recounting my whole experience with Dell but... this display better be nice or else I'm gonna be ticked. I will not be buying anything else from Dell. Their customer service people (the ones I talked to) had no idea what I was saying since my conversation went something like:

Me: I'm trying to get a price match on a monitor I bought on Friday.

Customer Rep: Your monitor is broken?



I wish I was making that up.

 

[wdlove]

I absolutely agree that Apple LCDs should have a three year warranty.

Apple wants the purchaser to get a CPU also. Then you can have the 3 year AppleCare.

 

[Grokgod]

Taking a chance!

Well, I have been having strange thoughts about Apple lately.

With all the recent problems with the LCD's.
( The white spot game with the Pb's, and now the pink tints etc )

Not to mention that there is a NO return policy!
You have to break legs if you think that there is something wrong with your LCD. This includes all the known issues, stuck pixels, pink hues, white spots.

Don't get me wrong, I love Apple product but their policies are NOT loveable! ( A quote from my last relationship! )

But to pay $1200.00 bucks with the ackowledged problems and knowing that IF there are problems APPLE will make it a REAL problem!

IS TOO MUCH to spend $1200.00 bucks to experience!

WHo has time for such sweaty problems.

All this only serves to weaken APPLE base and to lose sales!

Because here I am a LOYAL APPLE user actually going to DELL, <cough cough, the pain of it all> because I feel isolated as an APPLE user from the company that doesnt seem able to back their own product despite the huge prices above other companys.

I would pay the higher costs if it also meant higher service and value.

Of course my DELL experience may be ugly but there is a 100 percent satisfaction condition and I plan to be satisfied or send it back!

By the way, the salesgirl told me that the LCD panel was a SAMSUNG!
COOL..!

 

[davebytes]

Since I just lost my entire freaking message (it was LONG), I'll keep this shorter.

The Dell display is 799, isn't it? Twice that would be 1599, not 1299.

As I've posted (see here), the Dell can be had for much lower than the MSRP (unlike Apple displays). In fact, as they were selling down below 700, that's in fact close to half the price of the Apple 20. And if you buy an upper-end XPS, you can get it down under $500. Sheesh. Apple should really do bundle deals like that!

The Dell has more features, and costs less, simply put. Apple hasn't truly justified the pricing of their displays, and my personal opinion is they simply can't at this point. (Well, I'll give them a bit more credit than that -- their build quality is generally impressive...)

Yeah, the mac-only addicts among us (I was one once -- some might know me from a stint at my old company Reality Bytes) will buy Apple just because it is Apple, as will the people 'who don't know any better'. In fact, that's why I started CHAITGEAR, to try and inform average consumers of all the great stuff out there. Certainly, anyone price shopping will find things like the Dell, and purchase it without a second thought (at least if they aren't hard-core Mac-based graphics folks).

Just to reiterate, I believe that Apple's SWOP certification is specifically in combination with certain calibration hardware -- the same class of hardware you can go buy (with software) to calibrate any LCD (or CRT) on the market, within reason, Mac or PC.

Dell isn't the only competition BTW. Well, in the 20" yes this is new, but not at 23". The Sony is a nice display, and frankly the HP L2335 wins hands down on price-for-features. Same res, better contrast, Pivot, swivel and height adjust (really nice), plus not just DVI -- also VGA, Svid, composite, AND component (yes, use it as an HD set!). All that for around $1500, 3/4 the price of the Apple equivalent. Oh, did I mention 3 year parts/labor/onsite warranty?!?

So, back to the question this thread poses... Apple >should< drop their prices, at least 20-25%, to try to get more competitive in pricing. The shift to a DVI connector certainly helped grow market share inside and outside the Mac OS world -- but that's obviously no longer far enough on the feature front. (Lord knows I won't guess at what they WILL do, as I've been saying every year "This is the year Apple understands GAMES drive the industry, and gets behind game development"...)

Can Apple continue to justify their premium costs? Hmmm. No. At least not unless you just have to have an Apple Alu display to match your new G5. Over the past few years Mac machine prices have been dropped to be more in line with those of Dell, HP, and other first-tier manufacturers. Now it's time for display prices to follow. (I should note I applauded the price drops that came with the Alu display introductions -- it just seems the LCD space has shifted faster than Apple has adapted...)

And, I should note, I'm writing this using Windows XP, but on my Apple 20" Cinema Display (original edition!). Which I love.

Now where's the flash-drive iPod already?!?!?

-d