Does scalping really make a difference?

[Gregintosh]

If they are reselling the phones to wealthy people in the same country then your logic holds true and to be accurate this does happen. BUT the majority of the phones are exported overseas. So they are causing a shortage of units in the USDM while the phones are shipped overseas, to countries who are unable to currently purchase the iPhone.

If you look at it as a global market, demand is being fulfilled all around the world. Sure, in the US a few less Apple fans might have units but in another country Apple fans (ones who are so fan boyish they're willing to pay 2x-4x MSRP just to have Apple) will have some units.

If domestic fans in the US were bigger fans, they could choose to snatch up the units online for 4x MSRP and I guarantee you the "Asian scalpers" would be selling domestically here in the US rather than shipping the units back also.

Except in the US people are only willing to pay $100-$200 above MSRP for a unit, where as in China they're doing 4x MSRP, so the units go to the highest bidders.

I would wager that a great deal of the units being sold in China were bought by non-Asian scalpers who also looked to taking advantage of the market conditions.

My point was simply that ALL UNITS end up in the hands of Apple users, the only distortion is whether its fans who wanted to buy at MSRP or fans who were willing to pay a lot more. Location isn't important, as I don't consider a US Apple fanboy to be any more precious or special than one in Hong Kong or China.

 

[Blorzoga]

What all the anti-scalper whiners haven't acknowledged is that people still buy iPhones from scalpers. So it's a zero-sum game: if Apple had 500000 units to sell over the weekend, then in the end 500000 people bought phones and are most likely using them. Scalpers are simply middlemen. Most of the whiners are just ******** that they had to wait in line after them.

If I paid a college student $500 to stand in line 2 days early and pick up a 6+ for me, I'm effectively paying $500 over MSRP for the phone. Would this also be considered scalping?

The scalpers are sending them to China. They're not selling them here.

 

[HiRez]

Oh, OK. Just as I thought. "Asian == scalper".

I'm sure you also believe that "Black == criminal", right? You're as much of a closeted racist as ToroidalZeus is.

You really are not very smart, are you? City = 19% Asian. Line = 95% Asian. You don't see anything abnormal there? And this is being repeated in every city where the new iPhone is on sale. Has nothing to do with race, other than we know these phones are destined for (ironically, heading back to) China and they are using primarily Chinese through their connections to be the mules.

 

[IllIllIll]

You really are not very smart, are you? City = 19% Asian. Line = 95% Asian. You don't see anything abnormal there? And this is being repeated in every city where the new iPhone is on sale. Has nothing to do with race, other than we know these phones are destined for (ironically, heading back to) China and they are using primarily Chinese through their connections to be the mules.

You really are prejudiced, aren't you? I don't make assumptions about anyone's intentions just because there happens to be a large group of people of a certain ethnicity gathered somewhere.

In the end the fact remains: some of you racists are simply classifying all Asians standing in line as scalpers. So if a line consists of 90% Asian people, the conclusion is that 90% of the people standing in line are scalpers. Complete BS. That's a really lame and completely inaccurate way to compile and interpret data.

I'm a hell of a lot less ignorant than you are, that's for sure.

 

[ToroidalZeus]

If you look at it as a global market, demand is being fulfilled all around the world. Sure, in the US a few less Apple fans might have units but in another country Apple fans (ones who are so fan boyish they're willing to pay 2x-4x MSRP just to have Apple) will have some units.

If domestic fans in the US were bigger fans, they could choose to snatch up the units online for 4x MSRP and I guarantee you the "Asian scalpers" would be selling domestically here in the US rather than shipping the units back also.

Except in the US people are only willing to pay $100-$200 above MSRP for a unit, where as in China they're doing 4x MSRP, so the units go to the highest bidders.

I would wager that a great deal of the units being sold in China were bought by non-Asian scalpers who also looked to taking advantage of the market conditions.

My point was simply that ALL UNITS end up in the hands of Apple users, the only distortion is whether its fans who wanted to buy at MSRP or fans who were willing to pay a lot more. Location isn't important, as I don't consider a US Apple fanboy to be any more precious or special than one in Hong Kong or China.

Except that is not how the real world works. IRL you have different carriers all needing arrange deals with Apple and you have Apple seeking regulatory approval in the various markets it sells to. So as it stands they are causing a negative influence on the supply of iPhones to end users in the Western World.

Most non-Asians do not have access to the Chinese market directly (e.g. not though eBay).

 

[shady25]

Does scalping really make a difference?

You really are not very smart, are you? City = 19% Asian. Line = 95% Asian. You don't see anything abnormal there? And this is being repeated in every city where the new iPhone is on sale. Has nothing to do with race, other than we know these phones are destined for (ironically, heading back to) China and they are using primarily Chinese through their connections to be the mules.

And that's a problem because? There's nothing abnormal about people legally purchasing an item. There's no way to get around it.
Get in line earlier next year folks or shut up

 

[ToroidalZeus]

And that's a problem because? There's nothing abnormal about people legally purchasing an item. There's no way to get around it.
Get in line earlier next year folks or shut up

Ethics seems to be dead these days.

 

[IllIllIll]

Ethics seems to be dead these days.

But irrational reasoning and drawing false conclusions is alive and well. LOL

 

[shady25]

Wah! "It's not fair. I deserve to have my phone first!"
Laughable.

 

[ToroidalZeus]

But irrational reasoning and drawing false conclusions is alive and well. LOL

You're a scalper, the public attention is heating up on this issue and you will say anything to keep your business going.

 

[IllIllIll]

You're a scalper, the public attention is heating up on this issue and you will say anything to keep your business going.

Haha yeah OK sure, whatever. I'm a scalper. Because you say I am. That's some real slick reasoning there, boy! How old are you, 12? I bet it just kills you that you know there's nothing you can do about scalpers because the practice is perfectly legal...

Still waiting for you to answer my question. By the way, you're a coward because I say you are!

 

[shady25]

Does scalping really make a difference?

You're a scalper, the public attention is heating up on this issue and you will say anything to keep your business going.

And how exactly do you know that person is a "scalper?" Haha. Please, tell me how you came to that conclusion.
You're even more low brow than once thought.

You're too dense to realize that those who choose to do so arent doing anything illegal anyway. This has everything to do with broken entitled white tears.

 

[Chupa Chupa]

Dude, I can't stand it when people who are absolutely ignorant of the real world situation speak. As I said before this isn't your typical sports event scalpers. I was number 33 (40 after scalpers cut) in line at my Apple Store and number 50 to about 500 or 700 were 90% scalpers. From what other posters are saying is happening in their countries like Australia or cities on the East Coast, I know for a fact this is not an isolated incident. Maybe their aren't any scalpers in the middle-of-no-where America but regardless they are buying up a LARGE percentage of launch day sales, in the double digits (globally) for sure.

In short if the scalpers weren't sending Verizon, T-Mobile, AT&T cell phones back to China there would be none to little shortage today.

Seems to me you are the one ignorant of real world economics.

1. I stated upfront I did not condone scalping
2. I merely a explained the root cause of scalping, and the iPhone 6s in particular... It's irrelevant if it's a $500 iPhone or $800 World Series tickets with a $300 face value.

So I'm unsure why you are upset with me.

But I'm curious, other than limiting two per person, what should Apple do? Racially profile people that look like scalpers?

Also, you need to brush up on either your assumption-making or geography. I live in metro DC, which is the nation's capital and on the east coast, not middle America, but nothing wrong with mid-America -- it's just not where I live, sorry.

 

[ToroidalZeus]

Seems to me you are the one ignorant of real world economics.

1. I stated upfront I did not condone scalping
2. I merely a explained the root cause of scalping, and the iPhone 6s in particular... It's irrelevant if it's a $500 iPhone or $800 World Series tickets with a $300 face value.

So I'm unsure why you are upset with me.

But I'm curious, other than limiting two per person, what should Apple do? Racially profile people that look like scalpers?

Also, you need to brush up on either your assumption-making or geography. I live in metro DC, which is the nation's capital and on the east coast, not middle America, but nothing wrong with mid-America -- it's just not where I live, sorry.

Because you are spouting the most ignorant, uneducated, simpleton, economic mumbo-jumbo. Do you think Apple wants hundreds of thousands of their cell phones being exported overseas at inflated prices?

Furthermore the global economy is more complex then "the MOST ardent iPhone fans would pay a premium over retail to have the phone." They have their own domestic Chinese market that clearly has some government issues regarding regulatory approval and as a result they are plundering our domestic market. In other words instead of fixing the issues preventing the iPhone from launching in their market, they are creating a shortage (a problem) in our market while at the same time leaving their own market broken and making a profit on it.

There are a whole host of reasons why the scalper situation is a big issue and if you think it's some simple elementary school capitalism--whoever pays more gets it-- then you are clearly disconnected with the reality of doing business.

 

[IllIllIll]

Because you are spouting the most ignorant, uneducated, simpleton, economic mumbo-jumbo. Do you think Apple wants hundreds of thousands of their cell phones being exported overseas at inflated prices?

Furthermore the global economy is more complex then "the MOST ardent iPhone fans would pay a premium over retail to have the phone." They have their own domestic Chinese market that clearly has some government issues regarding regulatory approval and as a result they are plundering our domestic market. In other words instead of fixing the issues preventing the iPhone from launching in their market, they are creating a shortage (a problem) in our market while at the same time leaving their own market broken and making a profit on it.

There are a whole host of reasons why the scalper situation is a big issue and if you think it's some simple elementary school capitalism--whoever pays more gets it-- then you are clearly disconnected with the reality of doing business.

The problem with pretty much everything you've stated above is that you have provided no factual evidence to back up any of your allegations. So far all you've done is rely on first person anecdotal evidence (yourself) and automatically assumed your experience to be 100% representative of what's happening everywhere in this country. Hell, you won't even reveal how you conclusively came up with your "90% of the people in line were scalpers" claim, probably because you know that you're talking out of your butt. That's why you're not to be taken seriously.

Additionally, you're one lone shrill voice whining on an Internet forum. If this is such a catastrophic affront against society why aren't you more up in arms about this whole situation and taking it directly to Apple, going to the media with it, etc.?

Give it up. I understand I haven't changed any minds here but neither have you. The difference between you and me is that I really don't care. You just like to talk like you know what's going on, but in reality everyone sees through you.

 

[ToroidalZeus]

The problem with pretty much everything you've stated above is that you have provided no factual evidence to back up any of your allegations. So far all you've done is rely on first person anecdotal evidence (yourself) and automatically assumed your experience to be 100% representative of what's happening everywhere in this country. Hell, you won't even reveal how you conclusively came up with your "90% of the people in line were scalpers" claim, probably because you know that you're talking out of your butt. That's why you're not to be taken seriously.

Additionally, you're one lone shrill voice whining on an Internet forum. If this is such a catastrophic affront against society why aren't you more up in arms about this whole situation and taking it directly to Apple, going to the media with it, etc.?

Give it up. I understand I haven't changed any minds here but neither have you. The difference between you and me is that I really don't care. You just like to talk like you know what's going on, but in reality everyone sees through you.

The difference between us if you are scalper and it is clearly obvious from how you defend all the shady/unethical practices the scalpers make. I think Chupa Chupa doesn't understand because he wasn't on the ground to see it for himself and is preaching textbook capitalism but you understand full well and are making every excuse possible.

As for why am I the only person up in arms? Well right now this is true. From my experience with iPhone launches, with the 5S being like a warm-up, this is the first iPhone launch with MAJOR scalper issues. We'll see if the problem continues and if every year it gets worse and worse and worse then I'm sure it'll be covered in bigger depth by the media and the general public will become aggravated as well.

 

[IllIllIll]

The difference between us if you are scalper and it is clearly obvious from how you defend all the shady/unethical practices the scalpers make. I think Chupa Chupa doesn't understand because he wasn't on the ground to see it for himself and is preaching textbook capitalism but you understand full well and are making every excuse possible.

Believe what you like, but in reality all I did was question some of your statements. Instead of answering you got your panties in a bunch and started in with the crazy misinformed rants. Not my fault.

If you go back and read every one of my posts in this thread, nowhere did I present my opinion about scalping. If you want to consider that as me 'defending' scalpers and thus that makes me one, fine. I mean, it's not really an insult except to people like you with latent racist attitudes.

As for why am I the only person up in arms? Well right now this is true. From my experience with iPhone launches, with the 5S being like a warm-up, this is the first iPhone launch with MAJOR scalper issues. We'll see if the problem continues and every year it gets worse and worse and worse then I'm sure it'll be covered in bigger depth by the media and the general public will become aggravated as well.

Sure, sure. If and when that happens be sure to revisit this thread so you can rub it in all our faces and scream and yell "SEE I TOLD YOU SO NEENER NEENER". Maybe you'll get a modicum more respect then. Until then, back up your statements with objective facts or GTFO.

Really, the whole "it's true because I say it is" approach is getting old and only works for people 12 and under. Unless you're in that demographic, people expect more logic and reason when it comes to discussing such a world shattering issue such as iPhone scalpers. But then again, you call people who disagree with you scalpers so I really don't expect any less from someone of such shrewd intellect.

 

[Gregintosh]

Except that is not how the real world works. IRL you have different carriers all needing arrange deals with Apple and you have Apple seeking regulatory approval in the various markets it sells to. So as it stands they are causing a negative influence on the supply of iPhones to end users in the Western World.

Most non-Asians do not have access to the Chinese market directly (e.g. not though eBay).

Nope, I described exactly how the real world works. Regulations and carrier deals don't matter if the phones are unlocked or unlock able. The only thing that matters is that people want them and there aren't enough to go around or they aren't even available at all to some people.

Scalpers come in and fulfill the gaps that legitimate channels couldn't.

My point stands, that each unit ends up in the hands of someone who was willing to pay a big mark up to ensure they had it when they got it.

Non-asians have access to the Chinese market also. It is not like only Chinese people are allowed to fly to China, and it is not like non-Asians don't know Asian-connected middlemen or brokers who can make deals happen (i.e. a non-Asian scalper sells the phone for a $200 markup to an Asian middleman/smuggler who then takes it to Asia and sells for a $1,000 markup).

The value-chain in these operations can get quite complex with lots of middle men (that is why by the time they get to Asia they are sold at 4x Markup versus the $200 markup they are sold for domestically).

 

[shady25]

Does scalping really make a difference?

I find it interesting that because some disagree Zeus here that we somehow cannot grasp the very legal concept of people taking advantage of the high demand of iPhones on its release day.

I'm still curious as to how you are quite sure that another user here is a scalper. It is very clear you are merely talking out of your ass. Like being there physically would suddenly take the legality out of the practice

 

[Starfyre]

I am just thankful for their 2 device limit policy.

 

[lineskogans]

There is a very significant aspect of the scalping situation that is being largely overlooked in this conversation, which is that the scalper groups employ unethical line practices to maximize their profits. It is essentially organized cheating.

When I arrived at the shopping mall where my local Apple Store is located, it was 7:30 pm the evening before launch. I counted heads and I was the 27th person in line. Now, the atmosphere is these situations is usually tense until you have established a place in line and marked your territory so to speak. You're going to be there all night, so you learn who is in front of you and who is behind you, you set up your chair or your sleeping pad, and you settle in. But as the night wears on, it becomes clear what the scalping organizations have planned and I got to watch it take place first hand. When the mall closed at 9pm and security allowed the line to move from the parking lot up to near the doors, many loiterers took the chance to sneak in and take place next to their acquaintances. The growing number of people in line in front of me began to inflate more drastically in the later hours of the night. A lone person in the line would welcome three buddies under the rope as most people slept.

Now, I want to go ahead and say that I saw people from several different ethnic groups employing this strategy, and who it is doesn't really matter to me. What does matter is that they use dishonest methods to gain their advantages. By 6 am when we were allowed to enter the mall and wait directly in front of the Apple Store, there were 117 people in front of me. What...the...actual...*******? Pardon my language, but that is just not right. When I and many other honest people waited 12.5 hours outside, during which we endured a thunderstorm with rain so heavy there was standing water on the asphalt, only to have our efforts subverted by coordinated cheaters...that isn't right.

And how do I know they were scalpers, you might ask? Well, they weren't discreet at all. They had mangers that were handing out stacks of sheets of papers with apple gift cards printed on them from home. They bought phones and then congregated in the parking lot to wait for their colleagues to join them, seemingly to consolidate their newly gain inventory. Their ring leaders (the gift card distributors) actually went through the line multiple times, on occasion. Now I am not the type to take that kind of thing lightly. I verbally called out to Apple employees and identified line cutters and repeat buyers multiple times. Mostly mine and everybody else's concerns were met with apathy. All the store reps want to do is sell phones as fast as possible and avoid fights and stuff. I can't really blame them for that, considering what they get paid and the general high stress involved with handling such an event. The problem is that the scalpers posses zero shame. When they would get called out when they were in line, the would ignore the people around them or pretend not to speak English for a few minutes. When they got called out as they left the store, phones in hand, they would hurry away. I literally saw couples run out of the mall as the people waiting inquired about how they had appeared at the head of the line.

It was definitely ridiculous. The problem was certainly exacerbated by the fact that the digital reservation system that Apple had prepared completely failed, and our store had to use a backup method that resembled years past with the barcode stickers on index cards signifying the phone in the back stock that you would have claim on. This system definitely enabled some of the line hoppers. These are issues that certainly can be addressed with better planning from the Apple retail department, but only if they care enough to enact changes.

The truth is that I don't disagree with scalping in its essence. I was actually hoping to buy a second iPhone 6+ at full price that would have personally flipped on local classifieds or eBay to help fund the purchase I made for myself, but of course there were zero remaining by the time my turn came. If all those people had actually waited in line the whole time and arrived before me, then more power to them...but they didn't. They cheated. The employed organized tactics, exploited their power in numbers, and used other unethical means to obtain more phones than what they were truly entitled to from an already limited supply.

So, I guess what I'm saying is that I have no problem with a scalper who is just a scalper, grinding away to make a buck. I have huge problems with the shameless, dishonorable pimps that that I witnessed, and such types were present in abundance. There is nothing anyone here can tell me that could successfully justify such behavior. And, there is very little a bystander can do to limit it, for fear of being booted from the line themselves for creating disorder. This is the gripe that many among the general launch day iPhone customers feel and would like to express. Our question is, who is going to listen?

 

[NYY FaN]

Please share how you came up with this data.

I'm late to the party on this one but yeah it's because 90% of the line were full of asians. I don't live in an area with even a small asian population. Also, it isn't even the fact that they are asian and discriminating against them - it's also the fact that they were older folks that could not even speak english. I HIGHLY doubt a 70 year old woman that doesn't speak a word of english is worried about standing in line for 24 hours for a phone for her own use. Sometimes you just have to call a red sheep red.. it is what it is and stop calling others racist for stuff like this. They could be black, mexican, jews... makes no difference, but it's obvious what's going on. I'm also not saying every asian in line was there to resell - but given what I saw what went on at my local Apple store that morning, I have to at least think a good majority of them were there to resell.

 

[erzhik]

A) they are breaking a lot of laws like customs, tax, littering, etc.

B) they are causing shortages.

A. Customs tax is only paid when they ship products to China and who says they don't pay them? Littering, well they did yes. But who is it to say that some of that litter didn't come from college kids?

B. They are causing shortages only in US, but there will always be a shortage of product that is popular.

They are not breaking any laws. The only people who are upset are those who didn't get a phone. Well tough luck, should've gone into a line sooner.

 

[nostresshere]

This is foolishness.

I know 3 different people that wanted a phone on Friday. They went to the store and got one.

As I stood in line, everyone around me appeared to be buying a phone for themselves. Did not hear anything that would indicate scalpers.

I do not like scalpers and hope those FEW that hope to make a profit get burned.

 

[megadon]

A. Customs tax is only paid when they ship products to China and who says they don't pay them? Littering, well they did yes. But who is it to say that some of that litter didn't come from college kids?

B. They are causing shortages only in US, but there will always be a shortage of product that is popular.

They are not breaking any laws. The only people who are upset are those who didn't get a phone. Well tough luck, should've gone into a line sooner.

Who said anything about "customs tax"? Why would I care about Chinese gov losing tax?
They're selling it to someone else for cash and not reporting that income. That person buys it and ships it out.
You really think a old Chinese lady is flying to china herself with a thousand iPhones? Lol

I could care less how many of these people resell their phones, however, almost non of these people are going to pay taxes, hence why they purchase with cash.

No one cares if you resell the phones at the same price that you bought it for, but when apple sets the price for their phones, and hoards of these people flock to buy them for the sole purpose of reselling to the highest bidder in china, and avoid taxes on those gains, that's when it becomes criminal and extremely ugly.

Sooner or later states are going to introduce laws to stop this. It mirrors ticket scalping.

Last time I checked, anti-scalping regulations here in the USA are not set up to reduce the number of people avoiding tax and duty IN CHINA.

Currently 26 states, the District of Columbia, and most sports-league municipalities in the United States have some form of anti-scalping regulation, and three-quarters of the U.S. population resides in those locales.

These anti-ticket scalping regulations are there to insure that bulk buyers do not tie up the supply of goods for the purpose of selling them to the highest bidder.

Not so sure why everyone is getting really upset when they see people venting their frustration about the shady scalpers.

Why are you so sensitive and taking this so personally? Everyone hates scalpera..