Dolby Atmos Content to test?

[floaty83]

Yeah, I’m not sure where anyone is getting the idea that lossless formats like TrueHD and DTS-MA/X are used with streaming content. I don’t see that happening for a long long time since DD+ is such an efficient codec.
I don’t even know of any streaming service using lossy DTS for that matter.

 

[JeffPerrin]

Yeah, I’m not sure where anyone is getting the idea that lossless formats like TrueHD and DTS-MA/X are used with streaming content. I don’t see that happening for a long long time since DD+ is such an efficient codec.
I don’t even know of any streaming service using lossy DTS for that matter.

Spot on. Currently, Dolby is pushing DD+ (with ATMOS) for streaming content. Nowhere in their marketing or white papers do they mention TrueHD as a possible option for streaming.

That said, I do hope one day to have some sort of lossless option, at least for iTunes purchases, if nothing else.

//

 

[BODYBUILDERPAUL]

Has DTS ever been 'alive' in streaming?
I think in general, lossless formats will not appear in streaming services, not yet. (If avg internet speed is 13MBps, you would not use half of it to deliver audio, I guess).
For Apple, the aTV is a window into their iTunes shop. Yes, they have had to open it up to other streaming providers via apps. But I doubt they ever envisioned it as a full-blown media player.

PS comparing just some of the Atmos and DTS:X demos, I have a feeling that Dolby boys have better understanding of the object-based and immersive audio capabilities. I find DTS demos of X rather dull in comparison. (might be just me or my system, though).
Take the final "Think You Can Handle It" scene from "We are your friends" as an example of how to create immersive open space feeling in Atmos.

HA! BRILLIANT film - I loved it when I rented it a while ago and plan on buying it in time from iTunes (in my wish list). Still no 4K version in the UK iTunes store yet!
Really awesome film

 

[ThatGuyInLa]

It is amazing. I thought getting Atmos would never happen, at least with this version of AppleTV.
Apple makes it happen and now people are starting in with lossless formats in streaming.
Let's not confuse things. Let's get Atmos up and working, then you can ask Apple to stream lossless hi def audio on their wifi device.

Yeah I never had any expectations of getting lossless formats streamed. That’s a TALL order in both storage and streaming. Even today. I think DTS-MA is around 10mb a second.

What I was entertaining is something “more fancy” to make it feasible. Like a new compression that stores and streams but unpacks on the client end unharmed. The compression being used for Dolby Vision is quite good as example. This method could be looked at for audio. Using a new compressor.
[doublepost=1531090053][/doublepost]Also most here know this but for any newcomers on this thread. Here’s it all explained..the Dolby side.

https://developer.dolby.com/blog/dolby-audio-over-hdmi-part-1-codecs/

 

[priitv8]

Also most here know this but for any newcomers on this thread. Here’s it all explained..the Dolby side.

https://developer.dolby.com/blog/dolby-audio-over-hdmi-part-1-codecs/

Also, the sequels are worth reading:
https://developer.dolby.com/blog/dolby-audio-over-hdmi-part-2-signaling-and-carriage/
https://developer.dolby.com/blog/dolby-audio-over-hdmi-part-3-reality/

 

[floaty83]

Also, the sequels are worth reading:
https://developer.dolby.com/blog/dolby-audio-over-hdmi-part-2-signaling-and-carriage/
https://developer.dolby.com/blog/dolby-audio-over-hdmi-part-3-reality/

Well damnit! Part 2 just messed up my theory from earlier...


"WHY CAN'T I JUST SEND PCM?
There's a lot more to Dolby audio than just compression! You get the best possible audio quality when the final device in the chain does the audio decoding. Dolby audio bitstreams have metadata parameters that define how surround sound is downmixed to stereo, what type of dynamic range compression should be applied and other useful information. To get the best sound quality out of a television or home theater system, it's best if they receive a Dolby bitstream over HDMI. Additionally, there is NO way of sending Dolby Atmos over PCM over HDMI, so you have to send Dolby Digital Plus or Dolby TrueHD to get the Dolby Atmos experience."

So why the hell is my AVR reporting ATMOS over PCM?

 

[Audit13]

If this is the case, does it mean that the apple tv will have a passthrough option in the near future since Atmos needs DD+ or TrueHD? Has Apple cleverly added Atmos to a pcm signal?

On a side note, I am disappointed with my current ht layout because I can't do Atmos, I'm limited to 5.1. Now I have to decide if the difference in sound quality makes it's worth replacing my receiver to get DD+ (i.e. decoded to pcm) from the Apple TV vs regular DD.

 

[priitv8]

Well damnit! Part 2 just messed up my theory from earlier...

Mine does the same. And we both know that their whitepaper tells the opposite. So, for now, I take it the blog article is not correct.
[doublepost=1531165141][/doublepost]

Now I have to decide if the difference in sound quality makes it's worth replacing my receiver to get DD+ (i.e. decoded to pcm) from the Apple TV vs regular DD.

From what I can tell, DD+ alone sounds much better than DD, because of higher bitrates supported and better compression efficiency.

 

[ThatGuyInLa]

Mine does the same. And we both know that their whitepaper tells the opposite. So, for now, I take it the blog article is not correct.
[doublepost=1531165141][/doublepost]From what I can tell, DD+ alone sounds much better than DD, because of higher bitrates supported and better compression efficiency.

DD+ sounds “a little better” not a lot. Of course you have to have a setup that can properly reveal the differences. TrueHD and DTS-MA of course sounds far more dynamic and intense due to its much, much, higher bit-rates and frequency.

Whenever I do a comparison between my AppleTV version and the UHD disc version, it always makes you think the AppleTV version is still using some form of dynamic range compression. Even though it’s off. I attribute that to the very low bit-rate. 256kbps is simply not enough for 7.1 channels, let alone 5.1. Even old school DTS gave you 1.5mb which is why they pop and spark much better than DD ever did.

 

[tecnho]

Atmos without TrueHD is like Sex with Condoms.

Do I need to be the one to point out that sex with condoms is still pretty great?

On topic though, since I am exclusively streaming, I have accepted lossless audio as a necessary evil. That being said, in a blind test with all other factors such as db level and equipment being equal, how obvious is the variation between lossy and true ATMOS to those that have heard both side to side?

 

[Audit13]

I can't speak to Atmos but I have compared DD5.1 from iTunes movies to the same BluRay movie with lossless audio (DTS-HD MA, TrueHD).

With lossless, the bass is deeper and tighter whereas it is kind of boomy and not as deep with DD. Also, other sounds are better separated and detailed with lossless.

 

[ThatGuyInLa]

...how obvious is the variation between lossy and true ATMOS to those that have heard both side to side?

See my previous post.

 

[tecnho]

See my previous post.

Yeah. I guess I was trying to determine if comparing the two atmos products (complete with 3D sound) ,as opposed to DD vs DD+, would yield different insight...

 

[ThatGuyInLa]

Yeah. I guess I was trying to determine if comparing the two atmos products (complete with 3D sound) ,as opposed to DD vs DD+, would yield different insight...

DD+ with Atmos sounds, for lack of a better term, muffled in a direct comparison. At least on my modest system

There’s plenty of bass and LFE. The issue is the range between sounds. As I said before it sounds like there’s some form of dynamic range compression on when there isn’t. Only the most obvious surround and height FX print themselves clearly in your sound field. Quick quiet to loud sections of audio are far too similar in level compared to the full TrueHD version. (or even DTS-MA version)

But hey, it’s a streaming format. It’s not terrible, that’s for sure. It’s enough that I only buy UHD discs for only my core set of truly loved films.

 

[dsdevries]

DD+ with Atmos sounds, for lack of a better term, muffled in a direct comparison. At least on my modest system

There’s plenty of bass and LFE. The issue is the range between sounds. As I said before it sounds like there’s some form of dynamic range compression on when there isn’t. Only the most obvious surround and height FX print themselves clearly in your sound field. Quick quiet to loud sections of audio are far too similar in level compared to the full TrueHD version. (or even DTS-MA version)

But hey, it’s a streaming format. It’s not terrible, that’s for sure. It’s enough that I only buy UHD discs for only my core set of truly loved films.

I completely second that! Although i do tend to buy more UHD discs than i probably should. It's a bit like, if you've tasted sugar it's hard to like anything that doesn't taste as sweet.

 

[priitv8]

But hey, it’s a streaming format. It’s not terrible, that’s for sure. It’s enough that I only buy UHD discs for only my core set of truly loved films.

Also, taking DD+ stream from iTunes shop as a basis for evaluation may speak more about the preparation of the stream, than capabilities of aTV hard/software.
Take for example the Dolby Atmos demo disc (a blu-ray), and listen to Atmos Amaze or Leaf trailer in both TrueHD and DD+ versions (all tracks on that disc are encoded with both codecs).
I do not deny, TrueHD sounds better, but DD+ sounds not that bad and is definitely a welcome improvement over DD5.1.

I can't speak to Atmos but I have compared DD5.1 from iTunes movies to the same BluRay movie with lossless audio (DTS-HD MA, TrueHD).

DD sound can be no benchmark for anything except low-bitrate MP3 sound.
Most iTunes movies have even been encoded with 384kbps 5.1 AC3, not even 448 or 640kbps.

 

[Tech198]

I think Apple features on AppleTV 4/4k are running ahead of ITunes content..

very few 4K specific movies on iTunes, over all the others . Most are still 1080p only, and now Apple introduces ATMOS, which means they will need to add this as well..

Where gonna be in a situation, where this will always be true, and Apple will never get every single movie updated before any new feature *resolution and/or audio* additions.

I also would be keen to know if this is true ATMOS, or just simulated on all speakers somewhere, the same kind of think people saying how some 4K movies are not actually 4K, not done poorly.

Apple's got some strange ways sometimes to make it sound like ...

 

[ThatGuyInLa]

Ther

I think Apple features on AppleTV 4/4k are running ahead of ITunes content..

very few 4K specific movies on iTunes, over all the others. Yes some are upscales but that’s out of Apple’s hands. Most are still 1080p only, and now Apple introduces ATMOS, which means they will need to add this as well..

Where gonna be in a situation, where this will always be true, and Apple will never get every single movie updated before any new feature *resolution and/or audio* additions.

I also would be keen to know if this is true ATMOS, or just simulated on all speakers somewhere, the same kind of think people saying how some 4K movies are not actually 4K, not done poorly.

Apple's got some strange ways sometimes to make it sound like ...

there are plenty of 4K films already in iTunes. Yes, some are upscaled and that’s out of Apple’s hands. With most having HDR or Dolby Vision. As for the ATMOS, remember it’s not a codec it’s a processing. However the ATMOS streams for any streaming platform use DD5.1+ as the codec. Not TrueHD. Not the higher bitrate, higher frequency codec.

It’s sort of like streaming ATMOS is akin to MP3 audio versus SACD from disc based. About the best comparison I can think of.

 

[priitv8]

It’s sort of like streaming ATMOS is akin to MP3 audio versus SACD from disc based. About the best comparison I can think of.

But to my ears, the DD+ (with or without Atmos) sounds so much better than the old DD, that it alone is worth the upgrade.
Whether you count 5.1 or 7.1 channels in DD+ is also irrelevant, because now with Atmos it is object based and each object is a mono clip anyway, just moved around in the space using the coordinate system.
You may hear the difference if your rendering system has 7.1 setup instead of 5.1 but I can not tell that, as my setup is 5.1.2 at the moment.

 

[Audit13]

But to my ears, the DD+ (with or without Atmos) sounds so much better than the old DD, that it alone is worth the upgrade.
Whether you count 5.1 or 7.1 channels in DD+ is also irrelevant, because now with Atmos it is object based and each object is a mono clip anyway, just moved around in the space using the coordinate system.
You may hear the difference if your rendering system has 7.1 setup instead of 5.1 but I can not tell that, as my setup is 5.1.2 at the moment.

I have to agree with you about DD+ vs DD. After I replaced my current receiver with one that is compatible with HDMI 2.0 and HDCP 2.2, the sound from iTunes movies and Netflix is excellent but obviously not as good as lossless audio. The bass from iTunes' Cabin In The Woods is felt more than heard!

 

[kiranmk2]

I'm interested in the judgement between Atmos (via DD+) compared to Dolby TruHD (no Atmos) as I think that's the big question that's facing people looking to upgrade from TruHD/DTS-MA systems to Atmos soundbars. I guess it's a lack of definition/dynamic range vs the better placement of sounds.

 

[priitv8]

I'm interested in the judgement between Atmos (via DD+) compared to Dolby TruHD (no Atmos) as I think that's the big question that's facing people looking to upgrade from TruHD/DTS-MA systems to Atmos soundbars. I guess it's a lack of definition/dynamic range vs the better placement of sounds.

Atmos in itself won’t bring any sound improvement in the measurable departments (noise, dynamic range), so I really dont’t see much sense in a comparison like this.

 

[ThatGuyInLa]

Atmos in itself won’t bring any sound improvement in the measurable departments (noise, dynamic range), so I really dont’t see much sense in a comparison like this.

Correct...sort of. As I said before it’s more like CD or HQ MP3 versus SACD. Surround effects(Atmos) will sound the same. Clarity, dynamic psychoacoustic range (punchiness) are all improved with the lossless codecs. All my friends could hear the obvious difference between the BR2049 UHD Atmos disc version and the Vudu ATMOS.

 

[priitv8]

All my friends could hear the obvious difference between the BR2049 UHD disc version the Vudu ATMOS.

That is hard to deny. But this is attributed to sound quality difference between TrueHD and DD+, not the Atmos aspect of it.
I also find, that the addition of high speakers creates a more immersive 3D-soundfield (added Z-axis or height), that presents itself as more grippy, than the ear-level 2D-soundfield. So listening to same content with Atmos decoding is more pleasant experience, IMHO.

 

[ThatGuyInLa]

That is hard to deny. But this is attributed to sound quality difference between TrueHD and DD+, not the Atmos aspect of it.
I also find, that the addition of high speakers creates a more immersive 3D-soundfield (added Z-axis or height), that presents itself as more grippy, than the ear-level 2D-soundfield. So listening to same content with Atmos decoding is more pleasant experience, IMHO.

Yup! Atmos sounds better, always, no matter the codec, heh.