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I'm torn between getting a 2020 now or waiting. I currently have a 13-inch 2017 i5/16GB/512GB. I want to get the 13-inch 2020 for the new keyboard and the quad-core 10th-gen i5. If Apple says the transition will take 2 years, I figure it will take an additional year to work out the bugs of a 1st-generation product. So if I get a 2020 MBP now, it will only be 3 years old by the time I'm ready to upgrade. But if I keep my 2017 MBP, it will be 6 years old by then.

But, buying an Intel-based MBP now seems like a foolish thing to do. I don't use my MBP for Parallels or Bootcamp since I have a 2019 iMac 5k for that.

First-world problems. :)

Tell me about it. I recently bought a 2020 MacBook Pro 13 inch. Well I plan to keep the machine for at least 5 years.
 
Really enjoying the discussion in here and finding it useful. Still conflicted about what to do but have some options:

- buy a used MBA or MBP, but probably means getting the stilly butterfly keyboard
- buy a new 2020 MBA/P and hope to keep it for at least 5 years
- hold out with my 2011 MBA 11” and hope for the best for at least the rest of this year
- upgrade my Windows machine this year and wait a year or two before upgrading Apple laptop.

Will keep an eye on this thread!
 
You may be right, you probably are, but should notional future value be a consideration when buying a computer?
Spud's Law: Today's top tech = tomorrow's junk.

This may be true in some cases, but this is different, I think, to many. My last iMac, 24", lasted me nearly 10 years. Sure much better tech came out over the years, but nothing that made it truly obsolete. Switching processor technology is different. So many factors and the possibility of today's brand new machine not lasting nearly as long as it could have. That is very frustrating especially when faced with a decision of buying a new machine right now. (I'm ready to buy a new MB Pro 13" for our daughter who is heading to college in a month).

My concern is not what most seem to have in regards to ARM. I'd buy one right now if it was available. My fear is dropping 1-2k on a machine that's going to wind up like my older PPC unit. Almost no proper support after just a few years. (At least for the software I was using at the time).
 
First off Apple silicon isn’t going to be superior in performance to intel. I’ve seen nothing showing this more so with emulation likely being around for a very long time.

I think a lot of developers and professionals are going to abandon Apple, engineers. Apple made a massive mistake, they should have went Ryzen 7nm
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The question is should I return my Mac, and go get a Lenovo or dell now?
 
First off Apple silicon isn’t going to be superior in performance to intel. I’ve seen nothing showing this more so with emulation likely being around for a very long time.

I think a lot of developers and professionals are going to abandon Apple, engineers. Apple made a massive mistake, they should have went Ryzen 7nm
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The question is should I return my Mac, and go get a Lenovo or dell now?
If you are asking yourself that question then clearly you do not need the mac ecosystem.
But if you like apple hardware then this IS the time to buy a mac as they run windows beautifully. Apparently the 16” has better thermal behavior in windows 10 than native osx according to some users.
 
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Does anyone buy a Mac to run Windows? I thought we bought Mac's to avoid or at least just tolerate Windows. Not saying Windows is bad per se but don't see the point.

As for the silicon who knows it is so difficult to predict. I recall debating how we should go at 35nm and look where we are now. Astounding and unpredictable.
 
Well. There was no doom and gloom back then atleast in terms of performance and power efficiency. Actually, those relying on old PPC apps were pretty much only ones. Pretty much all the laptop forks here loved the transition. Remember when we all were dreaming about a G5 laptop? I still remember those super thick g5 powerbook renderings.

Although I use variety of platforms including both Mac and Windows, I really welcome what this transition to Arm can bring to Apple’s ecosystem. For me, Mac is my personal machine with all my pic library and music library, etc. Arm switch will pretty much combine greatness of ios and ipados with Mac. I can’t really wait.

The only thing I’m worried is Apple’s muddy picture from their introduction. What’s the performance? What about their dgpu roadmap?(if any?). Are all Arm chips from now on is going to have igpu only and share ram with cpu? What about their Xeon and nVidia/Radeon counterpart? You know, just vague description of “Apple Silicon” and A12Z as test machine doesn’t really cut it for me yet.

Thing is, when Apple moved to x86, they moved to an industry standard. That is a good move. Going to ARM or PowerPC is not because it will break compatibility. This is especially bad for something labelled as a "Pro" machine.

I'm happy for everybody who want to be more pigeonholed into Apple their ecosystem / bubble with the move to ARM. I like the flexibility of x86.
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Does anyone buy a Mac to run Windows? I thought we bought Mac's to avoid or at least just tolerate Windows. Not saying Windows is bad per se but don't see the point.

As for the silicon who knows it is so difficult to predict. I recall debating how we should go at 35nm and look where we are now. Astounding and unpredictable.

Mac is just straight up garbage for professional use. I have to use Windows since they broke 32-bit compatibility for some use cases. (now you can say I should harass the developers more. They got their stuff in 64-bit but they rely on other libraries which is still in 32-bit).

Linux supports both 32-bit and 64-bit. Windows support 32-bit and 64-bit. So why the hell can't Apple support both too?
 
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Does anyone buy a Mac to run Windows? I thought we bought Mac's to avoid or at least just tolerate Windows. Not saying Windows is bad per se but don't see the point.

As for the silicon who knows it is so difficult to predict. I recall debating how we should go at 35nm and look where we are now. Astounding and unpredictable.
The kind of work I did required me to run a windows only based app to do cardiogram analysis. My employer gave me a choice of computer. With parallels I could run windows on the mac and the allowed me to have a Mac and get my work done. Without out parallels I would have had to use windows.

I was just about ready to buy a 2019 16in to replace my 2012 rMbp 15. With ARM announcement. Will probably opt for a iPad Pro as a stop gap until the ARM rev 2 machines are out. I can't wait another two years and since I keep my machines a long time I do feel comfortable putting down the bigs bucks for a Intel machine. Retired now and do not need to run windows anymore.
 
What about non professional use? Guys like me and my wife and daughters?

Year 2000 I split up with my wife and had a 10 year old daughter. Spent the following year constantly at my ex wife's house sorting out blue screen of death on my daughters Windows laptop.

Following year bought her a MacBook Pro, never looked back. Never had to fix a single software problem EVER.

You professionals can keep whatever software makes you happy, in the real world with ex wives and daughters we mere mortals will stick with what actually works in the real world thank you.
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So that was 20 years ago I admit. Have things improved? My daughter now has a thriving business and bought a Windows laptop for her employee to save money over buying Apple. Her 7 year old Mac connected to her printer no problem but do you think I could get the new Windows Laptop to connect to the printer wirelessly? Nope, spent hours at it and no joy.
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And yes I really do know what I am doing from a hardware and software perspective.
 
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Intel has been the backbone of PC's for so many years (credit to AMD also). Why anyone would want to test drive the new kid on the Apple block right out of the traps astonishes me. As you say wait a couple of years.
 
I completely agree it will be a transition it makes no business sense to do anything else. So back to the OP's question. Don't wait, buy what you need now and in the future when you need to buy again maybe its an ARM driven Mac.

Of course wait at least 5 to 6 years as Mac support for your software will last that long....................

I’m about to buy the 16inch MacBook. I’m looking to buy an ARM MacBook only 3-5 years after its first version, so I don’t think it’s not worth to wait for things like Mini-LED display; higher display refresh rate; Face ID etc., right? Since Apple will probably save these features for the ARM MacBooks.
 
You guys are scaring me. I just got a almost full spec macbook pro 16. Replacing a fully sowc 2016
 
I cant wait to see what apple makes for its new chipset. It’s going to make a everything out now slow, big, heavy, and old overnight.

and much, much cheaper to purchase and enjoy for 99% of tasks for years.
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You guys are scaring me. I just got a almost full spec macbook pro 16. Replacing a fully sowc 2016

This forum is a very progressive forum, as is every other tech forum. So, we are always looking at what's coming next. Also, People live vicariously online, so they push others to buy the latest and greatest they do not need.

Your MacBook Pro is a fantastic machine that will last you a good 5 years if not more. My 2011 lasted me 7 years and I sold it only because of the ticking time bomb of the dedicated GPU chipset, while it was running. Also, High Sierra was the last OS supported, so I looked to replace the computer. Yours will last you 5 years minimum. It is a great computer.
 
and much, much cheaper to purchase and enjoy for 99% of tasks for years.
There's about a ZERO percent change of a price drop, don't kid yourself.
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I'll tell you what I've been loosing sleep over, my next car. To me battery vs. gasoline is a much more agonizing decision than the next processor in my MacBook.

I'll likely spend 25X as much on my next car as I did my MacBook. And we are not talking a few hundred dollars give or take on resale value. Processor smocessor!

Tim
 
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There's about a ZERO percent change of a price drop don't kid yourself.

Tim

I am not kidding anyone or myself, thank you.

My comment was in continuation of the comment I quoted, making 'everything out now' the focus. I never said anything about price drops by Apple, either on new or the old chips. I was thinking of the deluge of perfectly running Intel hardware tech enthusiasts would be dumping - making 'everything out now slow, big, heavy, and old overnight' much, much cheaper to purchase. See now?
 
My comment was in continuation of the comment I quoted, making 'everything out now' the focus. I never said anything about price drops by Apple, either on new or the old chips. I was thinking of the deluge of perfectly running Intel hardware tech enthusiasts would be dumping - making 'everything out now slow, big, heavy, and old overnight' much, much cheaper to purchase. See now?

Gotcha!
 
Howdy Folks,

Interesting thread, particularly with the official announcement made on Monday. I didn't watch the whole keynote, but did watch the sections on macOS Big Sur and on the "Apple Silicon" transition. They mentioned three big things about the transition, Universal 2 (fat binaries are back LOL), Rosetta 2, and Virtualization support. The first two, were pretty much self explanatory during the keynote, but I feel the whole Virtualization topic was misleading, and potentially intentionally so. Virtualization is a technique where you basically partition off the host hardware (CPU, GPU, HDD, etc..) and run multiple OS's at the same time. This is done using Virtualization software such as Parallels Desktop and VMware Fusion. This capability became possible when the Mac switched from PowerPC to Intel, and is very popular for developers and tech enthusiasts. Because the host hardware is partitioned off, performance is very good, as the virtualized OS (called guest OS) runs unmodified native code, at near parity without virtualization. Prior to the switch to Intel, there was a product (by Microsoft ironically) called Virtual PC, which was an Intel emulator (vices virtualization). Using that, you could run a VM (virtual machine) with Windows on your PowerPC based Mac. It worked, and performance was ok for light tasks, but this was not an option for games or heavy duty situations, as it was just too slow. The PowerPC had to build an Intel CPU (plus other components) in software, which was not even close to native speed.

In order for the new Macs to support virtualization, it would need to be able to partition the host hardware off, which is certainly a possibility, but that would mean it was running an ARM guest OS, not an Intel one. So the Linux distribution they showed, must have been an ARM version. This also means that when they were showing Docker, it must either be an ARM version of Docker, or running on Rosetta 2. IF the Linux or Docker they showcased was Intel based, that was NOT virtualization (which was the word they used), but emulation. However, if that were the case, you would think they would show Windows vices Linux. I mean a lot of what you can run in a Linux VM, you can run natively right on the Mac, without any application (like Parallels) needed. I strongly suspect, they were showing an ARM Linux VM, which really misses the point. Developers like to run x86 (or Intel if you will) VMs on their Macs to work seamlessly with their non-Mac customers or co-workers. This is just MHO, but what developers want/need is Intel compatibility, not virtualization. It just so-happens that they are both the same thing on current Macs.

One final thought on Rosetta 2. They made it sound like its was going to use binary translation (changing machine code form x86-64 to ARM) during install when possible, and then on-the-fly the rest of the time. This will be MUCH faster than emulation, and for most common office productivity type software, should be good-enough for most folks. They even demonstrated Tome Raider running under it, which impressed me. With games, if they have native Mac Metal port, and do not do anything too complex (like AVX instructions or something else), the pre-translation during install should work fairly well. If the ARM Mac could run a native version of said game at a good frame rate, the Rosetta 2 version should be 75 - 90% of the same performance. If the game requires a bunch of on-the-fly translation, it will not fare so well. Plus if the game doesn't use Metal.... all bets are off.

Personally, I am extremely interested in the raw performance of these new Mac systems, and can't wait till we get more info on them :)


Just my $0.02...

Thanks!

Rich S.
 
One thing I'm predicting is :

Apple will have regular updates for the mac, just like there will be new iPhones every September.

WWDC every June for the softwares, which usually launch in fall.

And new macbook / mac's every October ? it could happen because the Tim said himself there will be new mac with Apple Silicon before the end of the year.

So it could be regular updates every year (not waiting on Intel roadmap anymore), I'm definitely waiting for Apple Silicon MBP.
 
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Howdy Folks,

Interesting thread, particularly with the official announcement made on Monday. I didn't watch the whole keynote, but did watch the sections on macOS Big Sur and on the "Apple Silicon" transition. They mentioned three big things about the transition, Universal 2 (fat binaries are back LOL), Rosetta 2, and Virtualization support. The first two, were pretty much self explanatory during the keynote, but I feel the whole Virtualization topic was misleading, and potentially intentionally so. Virtualization is a technique where you basically partition off the host hardware (CPU, GPU, HDD, etc..) and run multiple OS's at the same time. This is done using Virtualization software such as Parallels Desktop and VMware Fusion. This capability became possible when the Mac switched from PowerPC to Intel, and is very popular for developers and tech enthusiasts. Because the host hardware is partitioned off, performance is very good, as the virtualized OS (called guest OS) runs unmodified native code, at near parity without virtualization. Prior to the switch to Intel, there was a product (by Microsoft ironically) called Virtual PC, which was an Intel emulator (vices virtualization). Using that, you could run a VM (virtual machine) with Windows on your PowerPC based Mac. It worked, and performance was ok for light tasks, but this was not an option for games or heavy duty situations, as it was just too slow. The PowerPC had to build an Intel CPU (plus other components) in software, which was not even close to native speed.

In order for the new Macs to support virtualization, it would need to be able to partition the host hardware off, which is certainly a possibility, but that would mean it was running an ARM guest OS, not an Intel one. So the Linux distribution they showed, must have been an ARM version. This also means that when they were showing Docker, it must either be an ARM version of Docker, or running on Rosetta 2. IF the Linux or Docker they showcased was Intel based, that was NOT virtualization (which was the word they used), but emulation. However, if that were the case, you would think they would show Windows vices Linux. I mean a lot of what you can run in a Linux VM, you can run natively right on the Mac, without any application (like Parallels) needed. I strongly suspect, they were showing an ARM Linux VM, which really misses the point. Developers like to run x86 (or Intel if you will) VMs on their Macs to work seamlessly with their non-Mac customers or co-workers. This is just MHO, but what developers want/need is Intel compatibility, not virtualization. It just so-happens that they are both the same thing on current Macs.

One final thought on Rosetta 2. They made it sound like its was going to use binary translation (changing machine code form x86-64 to ARM) during install when possible, and then on-the-fly the rest of the time. This will be MUCH faster than emulation, and for most common office productivity type software, should be good-enough for most folks. They even demonstrated Tome Raider running under it, which impressed me. With games, if they have native Mac Metal port, and do not do anything too complex (like AVX instructions or something else), the pre-translation during install should work fairly well. If the ARM Mac could run a native version of said game at a good frame rate, the Rosetta 2 version should be 75 - 90% of the same performance. If the game requires a bunch of on-the-fly translation, it will not fare so well. Plus if the game doesn't use Metal.... all bets are off.

Personally, I am extremely interested in the raw performance of these new Mac systems, and can't wait till we get more info on them :)


Just my $0.02...

Thanks!

Rich S.

Apple has stated that Rosetta2 will not run VM. What was shown in the keynote was Debian Linux for ARM Running as a VM. Setting up a separate VM for Linux is of interest for testing and development. You can also migrate the VM to a production environment, so there is clearly a use case for that functionality.
 
Howdy Folks,

Interesting thread, particularly with the official announcement made on Monday. I didn't watch the whole keynote, but did watch the sections on macOS Big Sur and on the "Apple Silicon" transition. They mentioned three big things about the transition, Universal 2 (fat binaries are back LOL), Rosetta 2, and Virtualization support. The first two, were pretty much self explanatory during the keynote, but I feel the whole Virtualization topic was misleading, and potentially intentionally so. Virtualization is a technique where you basically partition off the host hardware (CPU, GPU, HDD, etc..) and run multiple OS's at the same time. This is done using Virtualization software such as Parallels Desktop and VMware Fusion. This capability became possible when the Mac switched from PowerPC to Intel, and is very popular for developers and tech enthusiasts. Because the host hardware is partitioned off, performance is very good, as the virtualized OS (called guest OS) runs unmodified native code, at near parity without virtualization. Prior to the switch to Intel, there was a product (by Microsoft ironically) called Virtual PC, which was an Intel emulator (vices virtualization). Using that, you could run a VM (virtual machine) with Windows on your PowerPC based Mac. It worked, and performance was ok for light tasks, but this was not an option for games or heavy duty situations, as it was just too slow. The PowerPC had to build an Intel CPU (plus other components) in software, which was not even close to native speed.

In order for the new Macs to support virtualization, it would need to be able to partition the host hardware off, which is certainly a possibility, but that would mean it was running an ARM guest OS, not an Intel one. So the Linux distribution they showed, must have been an ARM version. This also means that when they were showing Docker, it must either be an ARM version of Docker, or running on Rosetta 2. IF the Linux or Docker they showcased was Intel based, that was NOT virtualization (which was the word they used), but emulation. However, if that were the case, you would think they would show Windows vices Linux. I mean a lot of what you can run in a Linux VM, you can run natively right on the Mac, without any application (like Parallels) needed. I strongly suspect, they were showing an ARM Linux VM, which really misses the point. Developers like to run x86 (or Intel if you will) VMs on their Macs to work seamlessly with their non-Mac customers or co-workers. This is just MHO, but what developers want/need is Intel compatibility, not virtualization. It just so-happens that they are both the same thing on current Macs.

One final thought on Rosetta 2. They made it sound like its was going to use binary translation (changing machine code form x86-64 to ARM) during install when possible, and then on-the-fly the rest of the time. This will be MUCH faster than emulation, and for most common office productivity type software, should be good-enough for most folks. They even demonstrated Tome Raider running under it, which impressed me. With games, if they have native Mac Metal port, and do not do anything too complex (like AVX instructions or something else), the pre-translation during install should work fairly well. If the ARM Mac could run a native version of said game at a good frame rate, the Rosetta 2 version should be 75 - 90% of the same performance. If the game requires a bunch of on-the-fly translation, it will not fare so well. Plus if the game doesn't use Metal.... all bets are off.

Personally, I am extremely interested in the raw performance of these new Mac systems, and can't wait till we get more info on them :)


Just my $0.02...

Thanks!

Rich S.

Interesting post even though I lack your knowledge of virtualisation issues. Certainly we must all be "extremely interested in the raw performance of these new Mac systems" and you have prompted me to wonder if Apple intend to wipe the floor with Wintel machines running Windows software. I was already expecting the ARM Macs (I loathe the Apple Silicon label and hope it soon disappears) to devour bread 'n butter Web/Office/Boring software like never before, but if they could also restore some gaming appeal that would be massive.
 
Imo this applies when buying anything related to tech: "Buy one if you need one, don't buy if you don't." It's as simple as that, actually.

If one really needs a Macbook Pro today, grab one. It's better to have a computer right now than not having one at all.
 
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Imo this applies when buying anything related to tech: "Buy one if you need one, don't buy if you don't." It's as simple as that, actually.

If one really needs a Macbook Pro today, grab one. It's better to have a computer right now than not having one at all.
That is what I have finally have had to say to myself. I worry about when Apple stops building Xcode for the Intel processors. I have an iPhone app that I am going to need to keep up to date, and I will probably have to get something new when Xcode no longer supports Intel processors.

This has made me consider returning the MacBook Pro I just bought. However, what would I do right now? My old computer is clearly not capable of working with my current projects in Windows so I need something new. I need a computer that can run Windows and still work with Mac OS X. I'll have to cross the Xcode bridge when I get there!
 
Apple has stated that Rosetta2 will not run VM. What was shown in the keynote was Debian Linux for ARM Running as a VM. Setting up a separate VM for Linux is of interest for testing and development. You can also migrate the VM to a production environment, so there is clearly a use case for that functionality.

Howdy matram,

In order to migrate a Linux VM to a production environment, the architecture would have to match.. so you would have to migrate it from ARM to ARM, you would not be able to do it ARM to x86-64. If Docker (which really isn't a VM) is not running using Rosetta 2, then again it is ARM Docker, vices x86-64, same problem. Now it is quite possible that Apple has something clever up their sleeves, like some sort of hybrid Docker, that can use mismatched kernels. Will have to wait and see :)

Rich S.
 
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