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Dont lrt apple fool you

mountains said:
Has there ever been an OS release that people haven't described as bloated and hardware-intensive? Surely I'm not the only one here who remembers people hating on Windows XP because it just used so much memory.

I'm sure there are analogues with earlier OS X releases, too, but I'm a relatively recent convert to OS X (just been around for SL/Lion).
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Lets see, there's Windows 7. Tiger, Leopard, they were all great updates. Even Leopard, with its BSOD wasn't so disliked on release. Snow Leopard, lion's direct predecessor, wasn't so much liked, as met with a very loud "meh" because it contained so few visible updates. Lion was released July 20th - it's now October - and people are still complaining about how bad it is. Vista was bad. Windows was good. Tiger and the Leopards were good. You tell me if Lion is good or not. I think that the other thread, "Lion is Apple's Vista" is spot on.

DWBurke811 said:
It's not unfair, it's just how technology works; Office 2004 is software that's 7 years old, and is obsolete. In 2002(the year), would you expect the version of Office that worked on Windows95 to work with XP? It's just how things are, software is updated and it's unrealistic to expect Apple(or Microsoft) to support obsolete software forever.


Also, Apple made it clear that PPC programs wouldn't be supported on 10.7. Now, I hate 10.7.2 way more than the next person, but dropping support of obsolete program architecture isn't one of my reasons.


EDIT: I couldn't possibly care less what you do for a living, or lack there of. I just found it funny that you "brag" about how many best selling books you have, then complain in multiple posts about having to buy a $100 program.
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Erm, you do realize that I can run Office 95 on Windows 8 developer preview, right? Along with just about every-single-other-program? The only problem program I've encountered is Star Wars Pod Racer, which refuses to install if it detects a non-32bit OS. But even then I've read if you install it in a VM, drag the files onto your real OS, and run it like that, it'll run.

No one's asking for Apple (or MS) to keep updating their programs forever, but it would be nice if they didn't artificially break the programs too.
 
DWBurke811 said:
It's fine if you want to use outdated software, but for everyone else that likes being relevant, it doesn't matter if it doesn't work with 10.7.
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Possibly for some but for many it depends on what software you depended on before lion that now doesnt work with lion and may not be immediatly upgradeable or NOT upgradeable to work with lion. I'm talking about Programs that someone's livliehood might depend on. And there are a bunch of such programs.

What's ironic in this out of control thread is all the bizarre posters at an apple forum throwing Loyal, unquestioned support behind what's always been the dreaded microsoft company. Or is just the idea of being snarky and argumentitive for the sake of being snarky etc i came to this forum to get and give info like my tip that the apple store -- at least mine --- will downgrade lion happily with no questions asked when apple itself says it cant be done. Never more.
 
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thejadedmonkey said:
No one's asking for Apple (or MS) to keep updating their programs forever, but it would be nice if they didn't artificially break the programs too.
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Artificially break them? You mean by dropping support for a platfrom they abandoned in 2006?

Office 2004 was written for PPC, because in 2003, that's all there was for Apple. Fast forward to present day, Apple hasn't made a PPC machine in 5 years ... how long do you want them to hold on to the PPC framework?

(Most) Developers have moved to Intel, and MS has released 2 office suites since then. If you don't want to upgrade, fine - but don't expect Apple to keep supporting your decision to keep outdated software around - they have never done that (remember when they ditched the floppy?)

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Nychot said:
Possibly for some but for many it depends on what software you depended on before lion that now doesnt work with lion and may not be immediatly upgradeable or NOT upgradeable to work with lion. I'm talking about Programs that someone's livliehood might depend on. And there are a bunch of such programs.
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If you depend on dead software for your income, you may want to rethink your plan going forward ...

... so in a few years, when you need a new computer, are you going to try to downgrade that to SL too? Or, are you going to finally decide to abandon the office suite that even the developer has given up on?

Technology moves on, you can't expect to keep downgrading new technology to keep using an office suite that has been replaced by a newer version - twice.
 
r.j.s said:
Artificially break them? You mean by dropping support for a platfrom they abandoned in 2006?

Office 2004 was written for PPC, because in 2003, that's all there was for Apple. Fast forward to present day, Apple hasn't made a PPC machine in 5 years ... how long do you want them to hold on to the PPC framework?

(Most) Developers have moved to Intel, and MS has released 2 office suites since then. If you don't want to upgrade, fine - but don't expect Apple to keep supporting your decision to keep outdated software around - they have never done that (remember when they ditched the floppy?)

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If you depend on dead software for your income, you may want to rethink your plan going forward ...

... so in a few years, when you need a new computer, are you going to try to downgrade that to SL too? Or, are you going to finally decide to abandon the office suite that even the developer has given up on?

Technology moves on, you can't expect to keep downgrading new technology to keep using an office suite that has been replaced by a newer version - twice.
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your not going to convince the OP any different he wants to use his 8 year old software, and he demands his OS to support 8 year old software :rolleyes:
 
I find it interesting how most of the posters here are either insecure about their purchases or an Apple apologetic.

OP is just informing people "Hey, downgrading to Snow Leopard is possible" ... With all advice, take it if you need it, else ignore it.

He stated he wanted to use Office 2004, and you're all mocking him for not using Office 2011 ... Not everyone can just shell out money to upgrade to new software when the old one works fine for them, at least he's not stealing it.

Even more hilarious are the attacks on his character. I swear this place reminds me of a video game forum sometimes. Blind loyalty to things you have no stake in at all.

For the record, Lion works fine for me, but you won't find me insulting someone over it.
 
Adamantoise said:
I find it interesting how most of the posters here are either insecure about their purchases or an Apple apologetic.

OP is just informing people "Hey, downgrading to Snow Leopard is possible" ... With all advice, take it if you need it, else ignore it.

He stated he wanted to use Office 2004, and you're all mocking him for not using Office 2011 ... Not everyone can just shell out money to upgrade to new software when the old one works fine for them, at least he's not stealing it.

Even more hilarious are the attacks on his character. I swear this place reminds me of a video game forum sometimes. Blind loyalty to things you have no stake in at all.

For the record, Lion works fine for me, but you won't find me insulting someone over it.
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I don't see anyone actually insulting or mocking the OP, however, if you are willing to shell out money to buy a new computer ... you should be willing to update the software you depend on to make a living ...
 
Adamantoise said:
I find it interesting how most of the posters here are either insecure about their purchases or an Apple apologetic.

OP is just informing people "Hey, downgrading to Snow Leopard is possible" ... With all advice, take it if you need it, else ignore it.

He stated he wanted to use Office 2004, and you're all mocking him for not using Office 2011 ... Not everyone can just shell out money to upgrade to new software when the old one works fine for them, at least he's not stealing it.

Even more hilarious are the attacks on his character. I swear this place reminds me of a video game forum sometimes. Blind loyalty to things you have no stake in at all.

For the record, Lion works fine for me, but you won't find me insulting someone over it.
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not reallly insulting the fact that he likes the 2004 version still or cant afford the 2011 version, just point out why would he expected apple would test office 2004 compatiblilty before releasing OS X 10.7? im sure Lion has many bugs and im not here to defend it but the fact it doesnt work with a 8 year old program is not an issue big enough to start a thread
 
thejadedmonkey said:
Lets see, there's Windows 7. Tiger, Leopard, they were all great updates. Even Leopard, with its BSOD wasn't so disliked on release. Snow Leopard, lion's direct predecessor, wasn't so much liked, as met with a very loud "meh" because it contained so few visible updates. Lion was released July 20th - it's now October - and people are still complaining about how bad it is. Vista was bad. Windows was good. Tiger and the Leopards were good. You tell me if Lion is good or not. I think that the other thread, "Lion is Apple's Vista" is spot on.
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Not even close to true. Tiger and Leopard both had far more vehement opposition when they first came out (on a slightly smaller scale, perhaps, since the forums here had fewer members), and Snow Leopard continues to have "Why should I bother upgrading to Snow Leopard" threads to this day. Lion has a few features with loud opposition, but so has every other OS X release. None of this is related to major bugs, and very little is even minor bugs (though they are definitely there). Most of it is simply displeasure with how certain features were changed or function. Saying it's Apple's Vista is simply disingenuous.

jW
 
I can see where the OP is coming from. I personally bought my first Mac when Snow Leopard was released. Now I have a MacBook Pro running Lion and apart from a few issues with the new gestures and Mission Control (I much prefer Exposé and the old gestures), I find Lion a good OS. I wouldn't personally say it's an 'upgrade' to Snow Leopard, but again it's a good OS.

Still, Apple could have left support for Rosetta, which consists of purely software, no special hardware involved. Had it been linked to a special chip or co-processor on the hardware side, I would've understood that (much like early PowerPC Macs had Motorola co-processors in them). But Rosetta is only software. Surely, maintaining it wouldn't be too difficult. At least give the adventurous user an option to download it at their own risk, much like you still can download QuickTime 7.

Whatever the reasons and whichever solution works best for the OP, I must applaud Apple for supporting the PowerPC architecture for many years, with active support until 2009 and early 2010 (notably, the release of Final Cut Studio, which still ran on PowerPC Macs). It was one of the things Apple truly did right, from Rosetta to Universal Binary applications. Who had something to complain, usually was in the minority. Nevertheless, if the OP decides to stick to older software, well... inevitably so the OP will have to stick to an older OS.

(Ps. I just read another thread here about using PowerPC computers only, and a few MacRumors readers still have PowerPC Macs in production use! Talk about solid hardware. Perhaps, if the OP is interested, an affordable but still powerful Power Mac G5 Quad from eBay could do wonders. And it would run Office:mac 2004 natively! :p)
 
iisforiphone said:
not reallly insulting the fact that he likes the 2004 version still or cant afford the 2011 version, just point out why would he expected apple would test office 2004 compatiblilty before releasing OS X 10.7? im sure Lion has many bugs and im not here to defend it but the fact it doesnt work with a 8 year old program is not an issue big enough to start a thread
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If I recall correctly, he started the thread to inform people that Lion can be downgraded to Snow Leopard ... Not because Office 2004 didn't work for him as you suggested.

It's just silly how no one can state anything contrary to the general opinion and not get chastised for it on these forums. Not that anyone loses sleep over it, I just find it really childish is all.

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r.j.s said:
I don't see anyone actually insulting or mocking the OP, however, if you are willing to shell out money to buy a new computer ... you should be willing to update the software you depend on to make a living ...
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Ideally yes, but you assume that software is always cheaper than a computer. I take it you don't use any serious program suites, else you won't make such a silly assumption.

If older versions of Matlab suddenly stopped working on new OSes, most Matlab users will do one of the following:

1) Not update their OS
2) Update their OS and run a VM of an older OS
3) Steal it

Not all software is $50, the software I use daily retails for over $2,000 (Luckily for me, I can VPN and use network licenses, but not everyone has that luxury)

My point is, different people have different needs and can afford different things.
 
Adamantoise said:
My point is, different people have different needs and can afford different things.
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And those people need to take those needs into consideration when determining whether to buy new hardware or not.

Using your example, if a Matlab user is looking to buy a new computer, they will need to make sure Matlab will work on it. If it doesn't they will need to:
  1. Not buy a new computer
  2. Keep the old one around to run Matlab
  3. Or, if the computer is a "must-have", find a different software suite to fit their needs.

It's pretty much that simple. Consumers who don't do their proper research before buying a product can't expect to have criticisms taken seriously when stuff they need to work doesn't. This fact is even more important when you are dealing with more expensive software suites.

I work with people that run old hardware and Windows 2000 or OS X 10.3.9 on critical production machines - because it works.

Sometimes, the right answer is to not buy new hardware.
 
Nychot said:
Lion can easily and definitely be downgraded to the far more stable and proven snow leopard. If you call apple tech support they will be emphatic -- it cant be done, we dont go backwards, it will cause damage to your machine. For whatever reason that is a LIE. i then went to my apple store, no questions asked the genius took it in the back and 20 minutes later voila snow leopard running on it so i now can use my ms office 2004 with no problem. It would not run under lion and thats the only reason i downgraded. Why apple is saying it cant and should not be done is a mystery to me. My genius said he dud it to his machine too bevause if incompatible software with liom that he had. I even brought my leopard and snow leopard disks with me and he said he'd use their own. When he brought it back 20 minutes later it had 10.6.8 and when i got home i loaded office o4. Dont forget snow leopard wss on the early 2011 mbp BEFORE lion was introduced.
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Your blaming Apple because your 7 year old MS Office Software does not work? What a joke!
 
Lion is really swell!

I use it every day and can't imagine not having it in my life. I love it so much I'm not even going to upgrade to 10.8 until maybe a week after it's released.

My life is so complete right now. I lack for nothing now that Lion has roared. I'm getting goose bumps on my thighs just typing this.
 
mountains said:
Has there ever been an OS release that people haven't described as bloated and hardware-intensive? Surely I'm not the only one here who remembers people hating on Windows XP because it just used so much memory.

I'm sure there are analogues with earlier OS X releases, too, but I'm a relatively recent convert to OS X (just been around for SL/Lion).
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Yes. 10.0 -> 10.1 was a pretty noticeable improvement.

You can also argue that 10.1 -> 10.4 in general were pretty noticeable, although you did get diminishing returns the higher you went.

Overall, I still think 10.4 was the most stable OS revision, but I didn't think 10.5 or 10.6 were as bad as the detractors would like you to think (thankfully I wasn't really affected by the bugs that plagued them though, I also didn't upgrade until mid-cycle).

10.7 is the first OS X release though that I have no intention of upgrading to until I'm forced to.

This only goes to show how slow and immature 10.0 was though...
 
DWBurke811 said:
It's not unfair, it's just how technology works; Office 2004 is software that's 7 years old, and is obsolete. In 2002(the year), would you expect the version of Office that worked on Windows95 to work with XP?
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Quite a bad analogy as Word '95 still works on Windows 7. That is 14 years between the operating system release and the Word version.
 
thunng8 said:
Quite a bad analogy as Word '95 still works on Windows 7. That is 14 years between the operating system release and the Word version.
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That's because MS has decided that their business model will be to include backward compatibility for apps until it hurts.
 
AnonMac50 said:
As in stability problems? Windows feels very stable to me.
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No. As in the head ache that it has become for Microsoft in terms of keeping it together at a technical level due to the amounts of obsolete and legacy code all mishmashed and hammered together. The design decisions and shortcuts they have had to make in the circumstances has had significant impacts. If you're really interested I can dig out something more detailed on this, but you may find it very boring unless you're interested in things like monolithic kernels.
 
Didn't everyone know you can install Snow Leopard on 2011 MBPs?

When/ where did Apple ever say you can't install Snow Leopard?

Am I assuming the general populous has too much knowledge here?
 
Bypassed SL to Lion

I not sure what the issues are I am running X.7.2 just fine on my Macbook Pro mid 2007 and iMac (Late 2011) the later came with X.7.2 installed. I had no real issues as of yet and been running X.7.2 since early Dec. Actually my HP LaserJet 1020 which would not work with friends OS X.6 Macbook Pro works just fine in Lion eventhough it is not a mac supported printer. I saved a few $100 thanks to Lion on a new printer. I know there is some software updating to do but did the Macbook from a fresh install after zeroing the HD. I went from Leopard X.5.8 on my Powerbook G4 and PowerMac G5 to my first intel mac running OS X.7.2 and i could not be happier. I really not sure what the balk is about other than i just never used Snow Leopard just bypassed it all together.
if you are still having issues back up your computer with time machine and zero the HD and install Lion as a fresh new OS. when migrating the apps back over make sure u install intel only or universal apps not the ones used under the older PPC emulated through roseta.

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Heavertron said:
Didn't everyone know you can install Snow Leopard on 2011 MBPs?

When/ where did Apple ever say you can't install Snow Leopard?

Am I assuming the general populous has too much knowledge here?
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I tried to install SL on a imac Made in Dec 2011 which shipped with Lion it said this OS is not supported so I am assuming any MBP made after Sept will not except it either - check your serial number and see when it was made then if it was made before Sept 2011 then it should allow SL but after that it is hit or miss
 
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