Dutch Regulator Says Apple's Plan for Third-Party In-App Payments is Insufficient, Fines Apple 5 Million Euros

[Unregistered 4U]

"Since passenger deregulation in 1978, airline prices have fallen 44.9 percent in real terms according to the Air Transport Association."
Source: https://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/AirlineDeregulation.html

According to “the trade association for the world's airlines, representing over 290 airlines or 83% of total scheduled traffic.” Which, of course, would like VERY much for you to believe that deregulation was/is a good thing

A more critical and overarching assessment reads:
“Deregulation also led to poor services and many customer complaints. In 1978, all tickets were refundable, you could change flights with no penalties, travelers would be compensated for canceled flights, seats had more leg room, meals were free, and checking bags was free.

By 2007, the airlines had enough monopoly power to charge for checked bags, charge up to $200 for a ticket change, eliminate food, reduce leg room, abandon routes to smaller cities, and, of course, raise airfares.

Airlines' non-ticket revenue increased to $15 billion a year.”

In other words, please look at these specific lower ticket prices and not the higher ones PLUS all these new fees this far smaller pool of airline companies (as so many went under) are using to obtain more money from you.

 

[gnipgnop]

The US will vote on the legislation and the votes will determine whether it gets passed.

If passed, it still has to be signed into law by the president. That's not a given.

IMO, the side loading part of the legislation is DOA. Too many legal problems with that, as Apple has not been found to be in violation of federal antitrust laws per the various App Store lawsuits. All of these developers sell the same apps on a wide variety of hardware and operating systems. It's a standard practice in software development.

 

[BootsWalking]

Yes… long distance rates decreased to ZERO. But not because of deregulation. But because of non-traditional competition from cable tv providers and VOIP providers, and later, cell providers.

That report about long-distance rates dropping 40% was written in 1993, two years before VOIP was even invented.

You can see this currently in real time with OTT tv providers. Meanwhile, the standard hookup of a phone line has gone from $5 per month in 1983 to $60. Wow.

That's because landlines are being phased out and are now a niche product. Niche product = higher prices. The technology has been supplanted by cellular and VOIP.

I mean, it isn’t like there are now dozens of companies charging small fortunes for the products we used to get dirt cheap from that or anything…

Can you provide some examples, adjusted for inflation of course?

How about breaking up Standard Oil? That only unleashed multiple oil companies far more profitable than its parent. Prices must’ve gone down to facilitate that.

Oil prices are set by an international cartel for which American oil companies are barred from participating in due to American antitrust law.

link

Oh, and electric deregulation. Those prices have gone down too, right?

Electricity prices are down 17% since 1979 adjusted for inflation (link).

”Competition is good” is hyperbole, always has been. Regulation is required to check prices, nothing else.

Price statistics of regulated vs unregulated industries prove otherwise.

 

[Stunning_Sense4712]

The US will vote on the legislation and the votes will determine whether it gets passed.

I am betting that it is going to get passed since this seems to be a bipartisan effort which is rare in congress.

 

[Stunning_Sense4712]

If passed, it still has to be signed into law by the president. That's not a given.

IMO, the side loading part of the legislation is DOA. Too many legal problems with that, as Apple has not been found to be in violation of federal antitrust laws per the various App Store lawsuits. All of these developers sell the same apps on a wide variety of hardware and operating systems. It's a standard practice in software development.

A presidential veto can be overridden so we will have to see what percentage of the house/senate votes to approve. In addition their is zero legal problems since the congress can change/amend laws to make once legal activities illegal.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

If Apple is entitled to a commission it's entitled to a commission regardless of who processes the payment.

That’s the fundamental mistake. “If” apple is entitled to a commission.

This is not known. If apple is entitled, then amazon would Also be entitled to a cut of App Store sales.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

The way you make it sound is though Apple is doing the app developers a favour. Without the apps the iphone is nothing but just an everyday mobile phone. Actually the app developers hold all the cards but yet somehow and for some reason Apple is the one who has turned that around and made it look like it is them who is doing the app developers a favour. they are not. Apple needs developers to keep on developing app's for it's iOS platform because without those app's the iphone is nothing.

The fact that, even though worldwide the number of Android phones dwarf the number of iOS phones, the app profits are STILL greater on the iPhone says that if the iPhone App Store didn’t exist in it’s current state, there would be far fewer companies making far less money. Developers, more than anything, need consumers that feel comfortable spending money on apps. And, apparently there are a lot of those customers on Apple’s iOS. As Apple has the customers, they do hold the cards.

 

[mrochester]

That’s the fundamental mistake. “If” apple is entitled to a commission.

This is not known. If apple is entitled, then amazon would Also be entitled to a cut of App Store sales.

What Amazon software and APIs are iOS app developers using? I totally agree with your point though

 

[BootsWalking]

According to “the trade association for the world's airlines, representing over 290 airlines or 83% of total scheduled traffic.” Which, of course, would like VERY much for you to believe that deregulation was/is a good thing

A more critical and overarching assessment reads:
“Deregulation also led to poor services and many customer complaints. In 1978, all tickets were refundable, you could change flights with no penalties, travelers would be compensated for canceled flights, seats had more leg room, meals were free, and checking bags was free.

By 2007, the airlines had enough monopoly power to charge for checked bags, charge up to $200 for a ticket change, eliminate food, reduce leg room, abandon routes to smaller cities, and, of course, raise airfares.

Airlines' non-ticket revenue increased to $15 billion a year.”

In other words, please look at these specific lower ticket prices and not the higher ones PLUS all these new fees this far smaller pool of airline companies (as so many went under) are using to obtain more money from you.

Chart of inflation-adjusted airline prices since deregulation in 1978, with and without fees.

Source: How Airline Ticket Prices Fell 50 Percent in 30 Years (And Why Nobody Noticed)

 

[Sophisticatednut]

The fact that, even though worldwide the number of Android phones dwarf the number of iOS phones, the app profits are STILL greater on the iPhone says that if the iPhone App Store didn’t exist in it’s current state, there would be far fewer companies making far less money. Developers, more than anything, need consumers that feel comfortable spending money on apps. And, apparently there are a lot of those customers on Apple’s iOS. As Apple has the customers, they do hold the cards.

There is zero proof of this.
There is more likely explanation that iPhones are vastly more expensive than android phones. This means the vast majority of iOS users are rich people or individuals with capital to spend while android users are more likely to be a poor person for the simple fact they are cheaper to buy

 

[mrochester]

There is zero proof of this.
There is more likely explanation that iPhones are vastly more expensive than android phones. This means the vast majority of iOS users are rich people or individuals with capital to spend while android users are more likely to be a poor person for the simple fact they are cheaper to buy

It doesn’t really matter the reasons why, it’s just the fact it is true.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

What Amazon software and APIs are iOS app developers using? I totally agree with your point though

It’s not iOS developers but Apple inc profits they are entitle to.

Apple is using the Amazon store APIs as they call it for every device sold through their services. And Amazon server software used when browsing their store and purchasing apple hardware.

Apple can’t have the cake and eat it at the same time

 

[Sophisticatednut]

It doesn’t really matter the reasons why, it’s just the fact it is true.

It’s conjecture.

 

[I7guy]

It’s not iOS developers but Apple inc profits they are entitle to.

Apple is using the Amazon store APIs as they call it for every device sold through their services. And Amazon server software used when browsing their store and purchasing apple hardware.

Apple can’t have the cake and eat it at the same time

It a dev is making money from IOS and Apple was getting a commission, they probably are entitled to a commission even if they don't process the payment.

 

[mrochester]

It’s not iOS developers but Apple inc profits they are entitle to.

Apple is using the Amazon store APIs as they call it for every device sold through their services. And Amazon server software used when browsing their store and purchasing apple hardware.

Apple can’t have the cake and eat it at the same time

Huh? What Apple app uses amazon APIs? I agree if Apple’s apps are using amazon IP then Amazon would be entitled to charge a commission if they chose.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

It a dev is making money from IOS and Apple was getting a commission, they probably are entitled to a commission even if they don't process the payment.

You don’t know this. You could as well argue apple have a right to commission of add revenue made on free apps or YouTube and twitch add revenue of creators for having iOS user watching with the iOS app.

It is absurd to assume apple have any right to a commission because someone make money of their users. Apple only have a right be payed for a service they actually provided.

 

[mrochester]

You don’t know this. You could as well argue apple have a right to commission of add revenue made on free apps or YouTube and twitch add revenue of creators for having iOS user watching with the iOS app.

It is absurd to assume apple have any right to a commission because someone make money of their users. Apple only have a right be payed for a service they actually provided.

Apple are entitled to charge for services they provide and IP they license at whatever fee they so chose to set for those things.

But you are right, if Apple changed their developer agreement to say that use of Apples IP was charged at a rate of 30% commission from all ad revenue then developers would either need to agree to that or stop developing for iOS if they didn’t agree to those terms.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

Huh? What Apple app uses amazon APIs? I agree if Apple’s apps are using amazon IP then Amazon would be entitled to charge a commission if they chose.

Apple Inc. is using it. You can’t sell something on Amazon without using Amazon IPs. Just as you can’t sell an app on iOS App Store without using Apples IP.

Or apple can just sell on their own store just as developers can sell on the Cydia store to pay zero money to apple.
This is a cane of worms I don’t think apple wants to open

 

[gnipgnop]

A presidential veto can be overridden so we will have to see what percentage of the house/senate votes to approve. In addition their is zero legal problems since the congress can change/amend laws to make once legal activities illegal.

It's not very likely the Senate version has veto proof support. The House has its own version of how the regulation should work.

Per legal problems, the main sponsors of the bill have always been framing this as being related to anticompetitive practices by Apple, yet the courts haven't found any federal antitrust laws being violated by the App Store in widely reported lawsuits. It's not like people in Congress aren't aware of that. A lot of the posturing was done before Epic's lawsuit against the App Store didn't generate any federal violation rulings and BlueMail's lawsuit against the App Store was dismissed. Forcing side loading is a very heavy handed form of regulation and it doesn't match anything coming from the court system. Do they have the appetite to do something like that now? I doubt it. There's no cover.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

All you did here was reword your previous point that I’ve already refuted with direct evidence from Apple themselves.

The evidence only says, during one, 12+ month period, Apple didn’t have an App Store. Apple, today, wouldn’t be where they are without 14 years of App Store profits and growth. Unfortunately, it appears that any future company that would actually be able to challenge Apple’s non-Android dominance will have to do so without profit sharing. It’s the unfortunate outcome of those that admire Apple so much they’d like to protect them from challenges.

 

[mrochester]

Apple Inc. is using it. You can’t sell something on Amazon without using Amazon IPs. Just as you can’t sell an app on iOS App Store without using Apples IP.

Or apple can just sell on their own store just as developers can sell on the Cydia store to pay zero money to apple.
This is a cane of worms I don’t think apple wants to open

Apple will either be paying Amazon a commission to sell on Amazon or Amazon will be buying at wholesale prices and selling for profit from that.

This is all perfectly normal business behaviour.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

Apple are entitled to charge for services they provide and IP they license at whatever fee they so chose to set for those things.

But you are right, if Apple changed their developer agreement to say that use of Apples IP was charged at a rate of 30% commission from all ad revenue then developers would either need to agree to that or stop developing for iOS if they didn’t agree to those terms.

You’re missing an important thing. 100% of iOS developers don’t use apples intellectual property to run their apps.

Just as with any accessory you buy to a car don’t use the car manufacturers ip, but you still need the car for the thing to work

 

[mrochester]

You’re missing an important thing. 100% of iOS developers don’t use apples intellectual property to run their apps.

Just as with any accessory you buy to a car don’t use the car manufacturers ip, but you still need the car for the thing to work

Do they not? How do those apps function without calling device functionality via Apple APIs?

 

[Unregistered 4U]

Chart of inflation-adjusted airline prices since deregulation in 1978, with and without fees.

Source: How Airline Ticket Prices Fell 50 Percent in 30 Years (And Why Nobody Noticed)

Information provided by Airlines for America (A4A), formerly known as Air Transport Association of America (ATA), an American trade association and lobbying group based in Washington, D.C. that represents the few remaining North American airlines! I wouldn’t expect them to release anything that said otherwise!

 

[gnipgnop]

Apple Inc. is using it. You can’t sell something on Amazon without using Amazon IPs. Just as you can’t sell an app on iOS App Store without using Apples IP.

Amazon is a retailer. They charge people for selling things in their retail store.