I’m amused at all the moronic fanboys bashing Elon because he isn’t Tim (an uninnovative bean counter).
Got a tip for us?
Let us know
Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
Elon Musk Claims He Once Reached Out to Tim Cook About Tesla Purchase But Was Refused Meeting
- Thread starter MacRumors
- Start date
- Sort by reaction score
Auto driving exists already and no it doesn't require smart roads or 5g lol, wtf are you on
Not even slightly. Tesla is a terrible company run by an incompetent megalomaniac. It’s absolutely radioactive and nobody should want anything to do with it.
Also this is almost certainly untrue or exaggerated. Musk is a known habitual liar.
Sure there are incentives. There are even gas car bans in the future which is the ultimate incentive. All manufacturers *have* to build EVs if they want to continue selling in certain regions.
But legacy auto can't just ask their engineers to switch to making EVs. It requires a new team going back to the whiteboard and to go through the 10 year development pain Tesla went through.
Porsche announced "450km/280miles" range but upon release, it got a 201 mile EPA rating (perhaps so that headlines can read "I beat EPA with Taycan" instead of "Taycan fails to deliver promise"). Jaguar I-Pace and Audi E-tron didn't reach range that many expected. When Tesla announced the Model 3, they targeted 215 miles at $35k. Today you can order (over the phone) a Model 3 with 220 mile range at $35k.
Many of these companies are outsourcing the entire battery pack which is the most expensive and most critical part of an EV. It's going to be difficult for any company to compete on range and price so even if they managed to figure out how to build EVs with flying colors, they're going to be at the mercy of others like LG or Samsung to innovate new battery tech that can be manufactured at scale.
Then there's the software experience, FSD, and charging infrastructure that legacy auto has to catch up on.
FYI where I live Model 3 (580km long range)=EUR 60k; (430km standard range)=EUR 51k.
Yeah, I'm on the same boat. In the EU, the standard model without anything costs a "measly" 49K.
This. And no one is perfect. In fact, most captains of industry are Type A polarizing figures who come across as prickly to many people. That doesn’t mean they’re terrible people or “rats” though.
One reason this isn’t true is you’re assuming costs are the same for production. That isn’t the case. If I’m 30% more efficient at making a car, that improves my margins over the competitor trying to make the same car.
Tesla has been putting a ton of effort into increasing their efficiency so they can lower productions costs of the vehicle and maintain the necessary margins. Their aim is for 30%. Their entire battery day presentation was focused on doing that so they can scale production to the levels needed. Are other companies doing that or going to lgchem and Panasonic for battery orders that are limited?
I follow a lot on Tesla and I hope every manufacturer jumping into EV follow that path to produce essentially the most affordable Honda Accord/Toyota Corolla ev equivalent - range, charging, quality etc. producing something like a Porsche Taycan will always be feasible. But hitting the right balance of range (battery size/efficiency), charging, size, quality, and price is what is truly needed. For you, you didn’t want range, efficiency, and I’ll give a pass on charging infrastructure since I’m not sure exactly what it’s like where you are at. So you went with the ID.3. I valued range, charging and speed with and personally like the aesthetic and software with Tesla so I went with them. Tesla is more aimed at hitting all of them, but probably does fall short in quality. But quality will improve over time. I’ve been happy with mine so far.
Not so much...for the affordability argument. It gets a little like the new AirPod Max: because of price tag you start to compare with better builts (only on standard range, other than that, Tesla is at the moment on their own).
I meant great as in...not sure what that has to do with what we're talking about.
But ok, affordability. The price in EUR is high because it's being shipped from USA (or now from the Shanghai factory). Once the Berlin factory is done in about 7 months, you're going to see the prices lower substantially. 7 months in automotive industry is not much.
Really, it's not going to be a huge issue.
One reason this isn’t true is you’re assuming costs are the same for production. That isn’t the case. If I’m 30% more efficient at making a car, that improves my margins over the competitor trying to make the same car.
Tesla has been putting a ton of effort into increasing their efficiency so they can lower productions costs of the vehicle and maintain the necessary margins. Their aim is for 30%. Their entire battery day presentation was focused on doing that so they can scale production to the levels needed. Are other companies doing that or going to lgchem and Panasonic for battery orders that are limited?
I follow a lot on Tesla and I hope every manufacturer jumping into EV follow that path to produce essentially the most affordable Honda Accord/Toyota Corolla ev equivalent - range, charging, quality etc. producing something like a Porsche Taycan will always be feasible. But hitting the right balance of range (battery size/efficiency), charging, size, quality, and price is what is truly needed. For you, you didn’t want range, efficiency, and I’ll give a pass on charging infrastructure since I’m not sure exactly what it’s like where you are at. So you went with the ID.3. I valued range, charging and speed with and personally like the aesthetic and software with Tesla so I went with them. Tesla is more aimed at hitting all of them, but probably does fall short in quality. But quality will improve over time.
I just pointing that your US$35k translates to EUR 51k...
Price drop: though with not much faith, I really hope you’ll be right.
At present, most Europeans (apart from Norway, I believe) tend to consider EV as family’s urban/2nd car, and plug-in hybrid as a main car acceptable option. More than autonomy, size and availability of power network is really the key issue for a broader embracing of EV’s.
We already saw many price drops in China after Shanghai came online. In 2019, Model 3s exported from USA cost 377,000 yuan. Today, after China factory was built, it's 249,900 yuan (35% price drop). I don't see why the Berlin factory won't do the same.
It’s okay. I wouldn’t want Elon musk working for Apple anyways. He sounds like another Scott Forstall. You have a person who is individually talented, but with an extremely abrasive personality and a poor history of working well with others.
Apple would be wise not to take him in if it ever came to that, the same way Scott was ultimately let go. Whatever skills he brings to the table would not be worth the compromise in team dynamics and working harmony.
They are each where they belong, let it stay that way.
My skepticism has to do with presumably higher production cost (labour and facilities); also, although I’m not familiar with the production scheme, I suspect this will be more of an assembly line, relying heavily in components imports (not locally-EU produced) so (German ruled) EU, has ways of still indirect taxing heavily.
249,900 yuan is about $38k, yet labor is much more expensive in USA and Tesla was able to get it at $35k.
plus berlin factory will be using the new battery chemistry 4680 cells which are much cheaper to produce. they will *not* be using the current expensive cells today.
I should have been more clear, yes they should have bought Tesla for 100B and Integrated Tesla to add 1T to Apples market cap. That would have been way less risky than building a car company from the ground up.
Almost all of Apples recent growth has been through acquisition: Beats, touch ID, mobile processors, 3D mapping, Shazam, etc.
The 10 Biggest Apple Mergers and Acquisitions in Company History
Apple is arguably one of the most successful and innovative tech companies in the entire history of tech. Many of us are familiar with Steve Jobs’ vision
moneyinc.com
This is a very simplistic view of acquisitions. You can’t just buy a company and “add” their value to your market cap, unless all you are is a holding company.
Nor does a feature like Touch ID appear on iPhones (and iPads, and Macs) just by buying a sensor company. There’s a ton of integration engineering work required.
And, again, with few exceptions (such as Apple Music being a newer, rebranded Beats Music), Apple doesn’t buy products outright. They buy tech.
Yep, I know. Like I said, it already exists. It doesn't require 5g. Nor will it ever.
5g may well improve it, an internet connection usually does open doors to do more things. But it absolutely isn't needed except for software updates for full self driving to work. Not sure why you think it would be a requirement...
Last edited:
Labour in China is cheaper than US, whereas labour in Berlin is more expensive than US. Not saying there won’t be a price drop, but it won’t be anywhere near 35%. Also, sounds like you are comparing Tesla’s future to everyone else’s now. VW has their own battery facility coming, which will lower their cost dramatically too. Sure Tesla has a head start on auto driving, but they are still learning how to build a car.
Also, people want different things, especially in cars. Not everyone values auto driving. I bought a Mini Cooper SE, because it’s fun. And I don’t need the range. That does not mean I recommend everyone to buy one, far from it. My point is, anyone who sweepingly recommends everyone to buy one specific thing, is inherently wrong. This is the main fallacy of “Tesla will beat everyone else” arguments. No, they won’t even if they end up as number one. Just like Apple doesn’t beat everyone else at anything either.
I will argue that Apple buying Beats was also about buying tech, but yes it was more mature than usual. The packaging of the tech changed significantly. Just because it is software doesn’t mean the packaging is simple, or cheap. I think the Beats headphone business came as a tag-along, that was too big already to just kill. What we see now with Airpods is Apple’s actual headphone strategy, and I don’t think they care one bit if Beats headphones dies in the process.