Enough with the PRSI articles on the front page.

[MacNut]

And that could maybe happen if the moderators together decide that they are done moderating with it. It could possibly be easier for the management to just shut it down then to try to replace most/all of the mods at once.

On one hand, I'm surprised to see that representation of the company (in this case, the moderators) are allowed to repeatedly call parts of the company trash in a public setting. I doubt that would be allowed where I work. On the other hand, they aren't being paid, so really, what is to stop them? Nor do I blame them (for holding those views) in this case, frankly. I learned a long time ago that I am not welcome in PRSI.

I guess that is the question, if they are not getting paid getting fired won't matter much. I know it's not a union job where you can go to the boss with a grievance. But if the conscious is not to moderate a certain forum because of the blowback either it gets shut down or new "employees" are added.

Letting a virus fester long enough will cause prolonged damage. Something has to be done one way or the other.

 

[Plutonius]

All the mods and admins are volunteers.

Thank you for moderating. It seems like it could be a thankless job with endless complaints.
[doublepost=1541108692][/doublepost]

I learned a long time ago that I am not welcome in PRSI.

Are you banned from PRSI ?

 

[JayMysterio]

Obviously I'm a bit biased since I frequent PRSI, but I am fascinated by all the hand wringing over it.

Yeah things can be a bit contentious a time or two, but that's kind of why one participates in such a forum. Due to the moderation I haven't seen it descend into a 'cesspool' of any kind, especially if one has seen any other such forums. Rules have been laid out, there'a a few grey areas here & there, but for the most part the regulars on any side adhere to those rules. For one to be bothered by anything posted I still imagine one has to enter the forum willingly.

What has legitimately shocked me is comments from persons who aren't PRSI regulars who do post from the front page. I've seen comments that I know the most strident of PRSI people wouldn't dare post unless they were intending to be banned. If it's those comments that upset some so much, seems a bit unfair to paint the whole forum with that wide brush.

Then again, the calls for the dissolution of the PRSI forum have become a regularly cyclical thing.

Be a shame. While a forum on Mac products is helpful, I imagine it can't be enough to sustain constant year round traffic. Which is why I imagine it offers a variety of things to interest as many as possible.

 

[Plutonius]

Then again, the calls for the dissolution of the PRSI forum have become a regularly cyclical thing.

It seems to me (I may be wrong) that many of the calls to get rid of the PRSI are from members that have been banned from posting there ?

 

[JayMysterio]

It seems to me (I may be wrong) that many of the calls to get rid of the PRSI are from members that have been banned from posting there ?

That I can't say definitively. I know a fair number of those calling for PRSI's dissolution, are ones who feel their voices aren't heard as loudly as they want. I've always felt that the PRSI forum isn't about making another vacuum of hearing like minded views. It's about hearing other views that force you to consider your own more strongly, more focused, and make you do the work clarifying yourself. Some don't care for that, and may not care for a forum that will allow that. That's cool, but it's telling that they don't want others to have such a thing.

I do know there was one thread I found hilarious ( if not tiring & trying for the mods ) here in the feedback forum where a poster railed about being banned and used this forum instead to go off.

I just say if people give it a chance, you can learn quite a bit from the posters who do the research to support their points. I can never say enough about the poster Carnegie who explains quite a bit about legal things, and look forward to anytime he posts. Similarly there are other posters who offer such insights about other subjects that make me go to do my own research afterward.

Isn't that why we come to forums, to learn new things?

 

[Strider64]

I post comments on PRSI from time to time, but when I do I try to keep myself in check. There are times though I want to shoot with both barrels, but I stop, think and edit if I felt I went too far before I hit the Post Reply button. I think for the most part I don't ruffle feathers too much in PRSI.

Though I have to say I find myself trying to post on regular categories more than I do PRSI. I do say I wouldn't mind meeting people here on MacRumors in person other than a few posters on PRSI forum. Even some of their profile pictures makes me cringe, for I know they are just trying to provoke people who don't share their views on the issues. I would have to say I wouldn't miss PRSI at all if the MacRumors decided to get rid of it.

 

[MacNut]

I post comments on PRSI from time to time, but when I do I try to keep myself in check. There are times though I want to shoot with both barrels, but I stop, think and edit if I felt I went too far before I hit the Post Reply button. I think for the most part I don't ruffle feathers too much in PRSI.

Though I have to say I find myself trying to post on regular categories more than I do PRSI. I do say I wouldn't mind meeting people here on MacRumors in person other than a few posters on PRSI forum. Even some of their profile pictures makes me cringe, for I know they are just trying to provoke people who don't share their views on the issues. I would have to say I wouldn't miss PRSI at all if the MacRumors decided to get rid of it.

Even after the heavy handed new rules to try to temper posts, it still seems to be getting worse in there. The insults might be gone but the heavy partisanship and lack of knowledge remains.

The trolls still rule the roost and I don't see it changing.

 

[tobefirst ⚽️]

Thank you for moderating. It seems like it could be a thankless job with endless complaints.
[doublepost=1541108692][/doublepost]

Are you banned from PRSI ?

I am not.

 

[Plutonius]

I am not.

If you are not banned in PRSI, why do you think that you aren't wanted there ?

Most people there don't seem to care for my opinions but I still post. I'm not bothered when people disagree with me and it's nice to see other points of view.

The secret to PRSI is to not get the last word in. State your opinion, answer any questions other posters have, and then move on.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

Obviously I'm a bit biased since I frequent PRSI, but I am fascinated by all the hand wringing over it.

Yeah things can be a bit contentious a time or two, but that's kind of why one participates in such a forum. Due to the moderation I haven't seen it descend into a 'cesspool' of any kind, especially if one has seen any other such forums. Rules have been laid out, there'a a few grey areas here & there, but for the most part the regulars on any side adhere to those rules. For one to be bothered by anything posted I still imagine one has to enter the forum willingly.

What has legitimately shocked me is comments from persons who aren't PRSI regulars who do post from the front page. I've seen comments that I know the most strident of PRSI people wouldn't dare post unless they were intending to be banned. If it's those comments that upset some so much, seems a bit unfair to paint the whole forum with that wide brush.

Then again, the calls for the dissolution of the PRSI forum have become a regularly cyclical thing.

Be a shame. While a forum on Mac products is helpful, I imagine it can't be enough to sustain constant year round traffic. Which is why I imagine it offers a variety of things to interest as many as possible.

Well said and well argued, and yes, I am in complete agreement with you.

That I can't say definitively. I know a fair number of those calling for PRSI's dissolution, are ones who feel their voices aren't heard as loudly as they want. I've always felt that the PRSI forum isn't about making another vacuum of hearing like minded views. It's about hearing other views that force you to consider your own more strongly, more focused, and make you do the work clarifying yourself. Some don't care for that, and may not care for a forum that will allow that. That's cool, but it's telling that they don't want others to have such a thing.

I do know there was one thread I found hilarious ( if not tiring & trying for the mods ) here in the feedback forum where a poster railed about being banned and used this forum instead to go off.

I just say if people give it a chance, you can learn quite a bit from the posters who do the research to support their points. I can never say enough about the poster Carnegie who explains quite a bit about legal things, and look forward to anytime he posts. Similarly there are other posters who offer such insights about other subjects that make me go to do my own research afterward.

Isn't that why we come to forums, to learn new things?

Yes, I remember that thread. Insane and hilarious and ultimately, very revealing.

And again, very well said.

 

[ericgtr12]

All the forums are subject to moderation but individual moderators can chose not to moderate in a certain forum if they are not comfortable doing it.

I very much doubt PRSI will ever be allowed to become the unmoderated Wild West free for all that some members dream about.

Actually, it's the exact opposite of the wild west in there, the moderation team here runs it like a prison. I get the job is not easy but (seemingly) every little report or spat is treated with a heavy hand, even when they're simply engaging in debates that get a little heated.

There is no letting things play out with this team, they jump in and smack you down the second you cross their perceived line. Never have I seen a forum where they discuss politics as tightly wound up and controlled as MR.

"Wild west", man it's hard not to laugh at that.

 

[OllyW]

Actually, it's the exact opposite of the wild west in there, the moderation team here runs it like a prison. I get the job is not easy but (seemingly) every little report or spat is treated with a heavy hand, even when they're simply engaging in debates that get a little heated.

There is no letting things play out with this team, they jump in and smack you down the second you cross their perceived line. Never have I seen a forum where they discuss politics as tightly wound up and controlled as MR.

"Wild west", man it's hard not to laugh at that.

The reasons why moderation is now stricter in PRSI were explained in a forum announcement made in April 2017 which I have quoted below. It has worked well so far as the amount of moderation time spent on PRSI matters has now been reduced.

We give all members three chances in a six month period which is more than generous. If certain members are not prepared to change their behaviour after the first or second warning they really should be looking at themselves rather than lashing out at strict moderation.

Over the last few years the Politics, Religion and Social Issues (PRSI) forum has required an ever-increasing amount of moderation, and in the last year has constituted more than twice the moderators' total workload compared to two years ago, even after taking into account the effect of the recent US election. These moderation issues take time away from moderating other parts of the forum that are considered our focus.

We recognize the benefits that the forum provides to the community and have been discussing what changes we could make to how the forum is moderated to enable its existence to continue. Initially, these changes will consist of stricter moderation within the forum, detailed below. Depending on the impact of these changes, we may make more significant changes in the future so that we can maintain our focus on the core parts of the forums. We also ask members to help us in improving the decorum of the forum so that we can ensure that we can keep the forum open long term.

The changes to moderation are as follows:

1. Three violations of the Rules for Appropriate Debate in the PRSI forum within six months will generally result in the user losing access to the PRSI forum. Other patterns of behavior that don't meet this criteria precisely but are of similar severity may also result in loss of access. After the first such loss of access the user can apply for access after a minimum of one year, and reinstatement will be considered on a case-by-case basis. The second such loss of access is permanent.
2. In order to ensure that moderation resources are allocated well throughout the forums, a thread may be either temporarily or permanently closed if it reaches the point where violations result in a need for a disproportionate amount of moderation. This has always been the case across all forums, but we will be increasingly proactive about doing so for problematic threads in the PRSI forum. In the case of thread closure, the subject cannot then be brought up again in a new thread.

Violations that occurred prior to this announcement will not be counted in this new system. General moderation escalation will however apply as usual. This means that in cases where a user has incurred multiple, frequent PRSI violations and removing the user's access was already under consideration, the administrators may choose to proceed. Also note that these new rules are in addition to moderation escalation across the forums in general; this means that a rule violation in the PRSI forum could lead to a temporary or permanent ban for the entire forums, depending on a user's moderation history, even if they haven't met the criteria for loss of PRSI access.

As long as users post within the forum rules, the new system won't be noticed. As always, we are greatly helped by your post reports. Please remember that a reported post is not necessarily moderated - moderation is only done if a post violates a forum rule.

How can I avoid losing my PRSI access?

1. Familiarize yourself with the forum rules and the Rules for Appropriate Debate.
2. If you're angered by a post, wait to respond or don't respond at all.
3. Don't respond to a post with a violation. Ignore it, respond to it politely, or report it.

The administrators have sole discretion regarding moderation and loss of access in the PRSI section. We will continue to answer all questions about and requests for review of moderation sent via the Contact Us form. General discussions of rules and moderation policies and suggestions for change will as always be allowed in the Site and Forum Feedback section, provided they don't refer to specific moderation.

 

[BigMcGuire]

The reasons why moderation is now stricter in PRSI were explained in a forum announcement which I have quoted below. It has worked well so far as the amount of moderation time spent on PRSI matters has now been reduced.

We give all members three chances in a six month period which is more than generous. If certain members are not prepared to change their behaviour after the first or second warning they really should be looking at themselves rather than lashing out at strict moderation.

You are all volunteers? Wow. I mean at least the Admins you'd think would get a little $ compensation. Interesting. That's some serious dedication. Has to be frustrating to pour your life into this site so much and have other people say that this site is horrible, I know it would be hard for me not to take it personally. lol.

Have to say more respect to you and the other mods (especially @Weaselboy ). <hats off>.

I'm not a fan of PRSI --- have to say that staying out of there for the last few months? has been nice. I would like to be involved but my blood pressure is high enough and you mods seem to be overworked as it is.

Nice to be part of a forum that doesn't blow with the wind. Been part of too many forums that disappear, mods tear it apart, or it is just a horrible place.

 

[tonyr6]

Don't allow comments on PRSI articles since they can run rapid on the front page. The worst of other tech sites when they might rarely post a PRSI article and they say "Comments are disabled" but MR will post the same PRSI articles over and over again.

 

[Plutonius]

Don't allow comments on PRSI articles since they can run rapid on the front page. The worst of other tech sites when they might rarely post a PRSI article and they say "Comments are disabled" but MR will post the same PRSI articles over and over again.

There is an easy solution in that people do not need to read any of the comments.

If the comments bother someone, they should skip them.

 

[ericgtr12]

Don't allow comments on PRSI articles since they can run rapid on the front page. The worst of other tech sites when they might rarely post a PRSI article and they say "Comments are disabled" but MR will post the same PRSI articles over and over again.

One common way this is done in larger forums is to have a separate post for comments. So the story is posted directly into a news forum (for example) then locked for comments. Then a separate topic for comment is created in the political forum (for example) and linked to from the original post. I know it sounds messy but it actually works quite well.

 

[samiwas]

Even after the heavy handed new rules to try to temper posts, it still seems to be getting worse in there. The insults might be gone but the heavy partisanship and lack of knowledge remains.

The trolls still rule the roost and I don't see it changing.

Yeah, since I’ve been sent on vacation from PRSI, I don’t spend much time there any more, but I do stop in periodically to see what’s being said about major events.

It’s true...the application of the rules has left the place filled with what are essentially trolls. Those who spout all sorts of nonsense repeatedly, but don’t actually cross the invisible line. Those who try to argue against the trolls are found to have crossed that line and removed.

Anyone who can go to PRSI and still claim it’s a bastion of liberalism is crazy. The place has become a far-right echo chamber for the most part.

 

[I7guy]

Yeah, since I’ve been sent on vacation from PRSI, I don’t spend much time there any more, but I do stop in periodically to see what’s being said about major events.

It’s true...the application of the rules has left the place filled with what are essentially trolls. Those who spout all sorts of nonsense repeatedly, but don’t actually cross the invisible line. Those who try to argue against the trolls are found to have crossed that line and removed.

Anyone who can go to PRSI and still claim it’s a bastion of liberalism is crazy. The place has become a far-right echo chamber for the most part.

PRSI is not a bastion of anything. A lot of what is posted are not cogent posts designed to further a conversation, they are jabs that fall under the radar. Don't think that will ever be stopped, but at least the blatant insults seemed to have slowed down. Although there are clearly posters, who don't count to three before pressing the post reply button.

 

[MacNut]

PRSI is not a bastion of anything. A lot of what is posted are not cogent posts designed to further a conversation, they are jabs that fall under the radar. Don't think that will ever be stopped, but at least the blatant insults seemed to have slowed down. Although there are clearly posters, who don't count to three before pressing the post reply button.

Why should under the radar jabs be any different than blatant insults?

 

[I7guy]

Why should under the radar jabs be any different than blatant insults?

Jabs aren’t necessarily insults. They may more fall under bickering.

 

[tgara]

Alright, maybe I'm just an idiot, but I have to ask: what is the issue with PRSI articles on the front page?

Don't get me wrong, I don't like that particular sub forum, but I don't see how it affects anything. The annoying posters with access to the PRSI can already post on any non-PRSI article, the articles that make it to the PRSI are usually pretty tame (anything with the word "China" tends to make the cut), reading the comments is optional, and it's not as though MR staff is making a concerted effort to write articles for the PRSI; it's just that some happen to make it in.

Finally, Apple's net worth is approximately five-****ing-hundred times that of the poorest countries' GDPs. Mobile devices and computers in general affect nearly ever aspect of modern life, so one cannot separate the activities of the most valuable producer of these devices from politics, religion, and social issues (couldn't bring myself to type the acronym again). Every decision they make has the potential to severely impact the three topics covered by that sub forum.

Exactly and very well argued.

One cannot separate the advances in the world of technology and the enormous - and ever increasing - impact that has had on life and society with wider political, social and other issues.

To pretend that questions concerning issues of privacy (not to mention other issues directly related to Apple, such as Apple's tax arrangements and labour practices) can be ignored by society - and politics - is to live divorced from their implications.

Except that the problem with this high-minded sentiment is that that is not what happens in the PRSI forum. As I wrote this I took a look at the topics in that forum. Of the 50 threads on the first page, 42 were about the president, the administration or its policies, or the recent election, and had absolutely nothing to do with the social or political impact of technology in general or Apple's impact in particular. 4 were original articles posted by the MacRumors team that pertain to Apple and relate, at least in some way, to the high-minded topics you mentioned. The rest were about something else.

When people say the PRSI forum is a cesspool or a dumpster fire, they're right. I think most people, me included, would be happy to discuss the impact of Apple or technology more generally on society in a thoughtful way, but that's not what we have. Instead, we have over 80% of the PRSI threads discussing topics that are not even remotely relevant to those you mentioned. It's not a friendly place either. The snark and disrespect and vilification for people with alternative views is quite evident. In fact, during the perusal I mentioned above, I noticed that one poster in one thread referred to people who support the president as "MAGAts". I guess this is his cute way of calling them parasites. Frankly, I don't see how you can have a constructive conversation with anyone when they view you immediately as a parasite simply because of the views or positions you hold.

I think the PRSI section should do away with posts from members entirely, and just let it be a forum from the MacRumors teams on topics about Apple's impact, effect, and influence on politics and society. If members here want to discuss other aspects of politics that are unrelated to technology generally or Apple in particular, there are many, many other forums elsewhere to do that.

 

[Plutonius]

Anyone who can go to PRSI and still claim it’s a bastion of liberalism is crazy. The place has become a far-right echo chamber for the most part.

I guess it depends on the person's point of view. Currently, to me, PRSI appears to be a bastion of liberalism with only a few right wing posters (i.e. it's a left leaning echo chamber).

The discussion of the same topics can get boring sometimes but I generally enjoy reading other points of view.

 

[ericgtr12]

Anyone who can go to PRSI and still claim it’s a bastion of liberalism is crazy. The place has become a far-right echo chamber for the most part.

I guess it depends on the person's point of view. Currently, to me, PRSI appears to be a bastion of liberalism with only a few right wing posters (i.e. it's a left leaning echo chamber).

The discussion of the same topics can get boring sometimes but I generally enjoy reading other points of view.

Well, for me it's hard to say because I take breaks (of my own accord) from the PRSI forum for a few months here and there and recently jumping back in I see very few of the same people I saw last time. This tells me one of two things, first is that people may have opted to stop posting on their own, or second, they have been banned from this forum and judging by the feedback in the Site and Feedback forum I'm guessing this is mostly why.

The rules here are extremely stringent and both sides are impacted equally from what I've seen.

 

[AngerDanger]

Except that the problem with this high-minded sentiment is that that is not what happens in the PRSI forum. As I wrote this I took a look at the topics in that forum. Of the 50 threads on the first page, 42 were about the president, the administration or its policies, or the recent election, and had absolutely nothing to do with the social or political impact of technology in general or Apple's impact in particular. 4 were original articles posted by the MacRumors team that pertain to Apple and relate, at least in some way, to the high-minded topics you mentioned. The rest were about something else.

When people say the PRSI forum is a cesspool or a dumpster fire, they're right. I think most people, me included, would be happy to discuss the impact of Apple or technology more generally on society in a thoughtful way, but that's not what we have. Instead, we have over 80% of the PRSI threads discussing topics that are not even remotely relevant to those you mentioned. It's not a friendly place either. The snark and disrespect and vilification for people with alternative views is quite evident. In fact, during the perusal I mentioned above, I noticed that one poster in one thread referred to people who support the president as "MAGAts". I guess this is his cute way of calling them parasites. I don't see how you can have a constructive conversation with anyone when they view you as a parasite.

I think the PRSI section should do away with posts from members entirely, and just let it be a forum from the MacRumors teams on topics about Apple's impact, effect, and influence on politics and society. If members here want to discuss other aspects of politics that are unrelated to technology generally or Apple in particular, there are many, many other forums elsewhere to do that.

I don't think there was anything high-minded about the posts you responded to, but this thread has diverged into two separate topics. The first, which I was actually replying to, was whether or not there should be so many front page articles pertaining to politics. I simply argued that that politics and the actions of the world's most valued brand are inseparable and that having MR articles in the PRSI wasn't necessarily bad for them, and you rebutted neither point. If these articles are going to be posted anywhere, it's better they be somewhere that's a little harder to get into (by which I mean a little harder to post in).

The second topic, which you seem to be discussing, is whether or not the PRSI should exist at all. I cannot refute any of the points you made; nearly every thread is about ol' 45, and those that aren't guarantee he'll be shoehorned in later. I'm not a fan of the PRSI as I said in my OP. Participation is voluntary, though, and those that have posted seem to hate moderating it. I like your idea about restricting the PRSI to MR articles only. I think another good idea, @arn, which would help the moderators out, is to raise the threshold of posts required to get in. It's 100 minimum now, but why not 500 or even 1,000? I bet the only folks who could initially make it into the PRSI would be a hell of a lot kinder, knowing how much time they'd sunk into maintaining an account that's in good standing. Plus, those that are already in the forum might be impelled to act with civility if they knew how much effort would be required to get back in after a permeant suspension. You could even have a sticky thread about this change at the top, reminding people to not be *******s.

 

[tgara]

I don't think there was anything high-minded about the posts you responded to, but this thread has diverged into two separate topics. The first, which I was actually replying to, was whether or not there should be so many front page articles pertaining to politics. I simply argued that that politics and the actions of the world's most valued brand are inseparable and that having MR articles in the PRSI wasn't necessarily bad for them, and you rebutted neither point. If these articles are going to be posted anywhere, it's better they be somewhere that's a little harder to get into (by which I mean a little harder to post in).

The second topic, which you seem to be discussing, is whether or not the PRSI should exist at all. I cannot refute any of the points you made; nearly every thread is about ol' 45, and those that aren't guarantee he'll be shoehorned in later. I'm not a fan of the PRSI as I said in my OP. Participation is voluntary, though, and those that have posted seem to hate moderating it. I like your idea about restricting the PRSI to MR articles only. I think another good idea, @arn, which would help the moderators out, is to raise the threshold of posts required to get in. It's 100 minimum now, but why not 500 or even 1,000? I bet the only folks who could initially make it into the PRSI would be a hell of a lot kinder, knowing how much time they'd sunk into maintaining an account that's in good standing. Plus, those that are already in the forum might be impelled to act with civility if they knew how much effort would be required to get back in after a permeant suspension. You could even have a sticky thread about this change at the top, reminding people to not be *******s.

I was responding mostly to ScepticalScribe's post. Yours got me thinking, though. It doesn't change my view, but thanks all the same. I do agree with you that Apple's large size and influence does give it a prevalent role in society today, and that is worthy of serious discussion. I think Apple realizes that as well.