Epic Games Asks Court to Allow Fortnite Back on the App Store

[mateytate]

if i offered a free game on the Playstation store and tried to bypass Sony's cut, Sony would remove the app too. but Epic doesn't want to talk about that.

Of course Sony would, but you as a developer could also sell that game via hundreds of other retailers - or even sell it yourself direct (such as Super Rare Games do). The point of this argument is Apple do not allow 3rd party stores or indeed any other legitimate means of running software on the full price (non-subsidised) hardware you purchased other than through their store for which they dictate their cut. It wouldn't be so bad if this was a tiny company, but when you have 40% market share - it is a problem. Of course Apple can charge a fee for allowing a developer to use their store front, but if they want to insist on 30% they should also allow 3rd party stores and open up a bit of competition... and don't believe all this rubbish about it being a walled garden to protect the user. They let crap apps slip through all the time, this is about Apple protecting their profit.

I've said it before, MacOS has an App Store. I don't use it (does anyone?) and I therefore download all my MacOS Apps directly from 3rd party websites and guess what, I've never had any issues. Why is the iPhone different?

 

[MauiPa]

Sounds like a simple case of contract compliance. Not seeing what epics complaint is, it seems clear they violated terms of contract. Are the now saying “never mind”?

 

[brand]

MacOS has an App Store. I don't use it (does anyone?)

I do and it is the first place I go to to look for apps. Seems kinda ignorant to assume that because you don't use something that no one else does either.

 

[mateytate]

but this is exactly why I got into the Apple ecosystem? If I wanted to sideload or have 5-6+ app stores to download from... I would go with an android. Many Apple users know what they are getting themselves into when buying into Apple’s walled garden. Have we not considered the mess of the app stores android offers? Call me crazy but I like the option of just going to the Apple App Store, downloading an app, and trusting that it will work.
Just an opinion 🧐

I agree with this, to a point. I know a lot of people who use Apple products for this walled garden ecosystem. But why would having a 3rd party App Store change that? For those that want to continue to use the App Store for the comfort of knowing the apps are 'safe', then surely they can. If they want to install an app outside of this and assume the risk, they should be able to. Do you solely use the MacOS app store, or do you download apps directly from 3rd party websites? Apple will not allow it on iOS as it will mean competition. Its that simple.

 

[Tim Hilderman]

"daily iOS active users have already declined by over 60% since the app's initial removal from the ‌App Store‌"

View attachment 950616

What a shame. If only there was a simple solution to that problem...?

True. This is all on them. It’s also a misleading statistic. I’m sure while their iOS users have fallen, users have migrated to other platforms and increased those numbers. So not as big of a hit as they claim. But also all their fault.

 

[Small White Car]

The point of this argument is Apple do not allow 3rd party stores or indeed any other legitimate means of running software on the full price (non-subsidised) hardware you purchased

Really? Because Android does allow that and Epic sued Google too, same as Apple.

So... what's the point again?

 

[grundoon]

My favorite part in all this now is that, because they've already lowered the price to $7.99 on every other store, including the ones that also charge 30%, they can't actually even just go back to $9.99 status quo without risking a class-action lawsuit from their own users.

Thanks Epic, I needed a good laugh today!

 

[opiapr]

Game Theory, sponsored by Epic Games!

Hoeg Law has had some really interesting deep dives and they've got one on Epic's filing:

and also

 

[nickdalzell1]

Off topic but here it is:

Am I the ONLY one who thinks Fortnight is more overhyped and overplayed than Call of Duty?! Seriously it's just a stupid Battle Royale kind of game that gets seriously old very fast. Same as in 2009 doing endless deathmatches and humiliation-griefing got old very fast in Call of Duty.

 

[Jgltno]

Off topic but here it is:

Am I the ONLY one who thinks Fortnight is more overhyped and overplayed than Call of Duty?! Seriously it's just a stupid Battle Royale kind of game that gets seriously old very fast. Same as in 2009 doing endless deathmatches and humiliation-griefing got old very fast in Call of Duty.

🙋🏻‍♂️🙋🏻‍♂️🙋🏻‍♂️🙋🏻‍♂️🙋🏻‍♂️

 

[RevTEG]

If you don’t like the terms of service.... don’t sign the contract!

my bank would laugh if I walked in and said... hey, I don’t like the loan contract I signed for my house. I refuse to pay you the payment I agreed to when I signed the contract.

 

[joediianni]

Now I understand why only seven-year-olds play fortnight.
Because the game was developed by them

Lol. 350 million seven year olds. 100 million+ seven year olds who can afford iPhones.

I mean I'm a huge Apple fan and have watched macrumors for years but the absolute naivety of these comments makes me wonder.

 

[nickdalzell1]

Really? Because Android does allow that and Epic sued Google too, same as Apple.

So... what's the point again?

I still find it hilarious that it wasn't even good enough to pass Samsung's own store. You know, Galaxy Apps? (or whatever its weekly name is now, it's been called Apps, then Samsung Apps, Samsung Galaxy Apps, Galaxy Apps, Galaxy store i lost count!) the store that still allows more freedom than even Google Play and tons of malware and bad apps still get on there?

 

[AuraSphere999999]

It's too late, Epic!!! They had two weeks to revert the violations. They didn't! Because of this, they should not return to the App Store. As a Fortnite player myself, I side with Apple 100%. Apple will likely win. You got this Apple!

 

[alien3dx]

Off topic but here it is:

Am I the ONLY one who thinks Fortnight is more overhyped and overplayed than Call of Duty?! Seriously it's just a stupid Battle Royale kind of game that gets seriously old very fast. Same as in 2009 doing endless deathmatches and humiliation-griefing got old very fast in Call of Duty.

most asian play pubg.It just genre counter strike only for me.

** contra return anyone hehehh

 

[Abazigal]

Off topic but here it is:

Am I the ONLY one who thinks Fortnight is more overhyped and overplayed than Call of Duty?! Seriously it's just a stupid Battle Royale kind of game that gets seriously old very fast. Same as in 2009 doing endless deathmatches and humiliation-griefing got old very fast in Call of Duty.

I like to think that Epic is getting a rough wake up call and realising that their game is not as indispensable as they make it out to be. Their user base cares not about being foot soldiers in a war between billion-dollar companies, and they are most certainly not going to jump off a cliff with Epic.

They just want a good time and they can’t get this from Fortnite, they will move on to some other game or simply find something else to occupy their game with. Games are fungible like that.

I think what this lawsuit is also exposing is that many app developers actually have a lot less leverage than they think they have. There really aren’t that many indispensable apps that iOS must have which developers can use to blackmail Apple with. Apple has also shown that they are absolutely willing to boot out an offending app and give up that app revenue in order to make an example of said offender. Heck, Apple does not shy away from going after google and Facebook and have even gone as far as to create their own maps app to wean themselves off their dependency on a third party.

Not to mention that the rapid news cycle these days means that the narrative of Apple being an App Store monopoly is fast being eclipsed by other news and it won’t be long before people stop caring altogether and move on to something else to be outraged about.

This pitiful rebellion will go down about as well as that 10-v-1 fight in Ip Man.

 

[AuraSphere999999]

You did this to yourself EPIC. Now you want to be back to the App store because NO $$ coming in huh?

I absolutely agree with you! As a Fortnite player myself, I am rooting for Apple. What Epic has done was a premeditated choice. They were given two weeks to revert their violations. They refused. As a result, they are banned, perhaps permanently, from Apple (except for the Unreal Engine). And yes, Epic just wants more money.

 

[Kabeyun]

Epic has filed for a preliminary injunction that would both allow Fortnite back on the App Store and restore access to its developer account.

Not “allow,” Mr. McShan. Force.

 

[kcslc]

What flavor was the Kool-Aid?

Oh, apple apologists have so much room to talk with comments like these. 🙄

 

[Jgltno]

I agree with this, to a point. I know a lot of people who use Apple products for this walled garden ecosystem. But why would having a 3rd party App Store change that? For those that want to continue to use the App Store for the comfort of knowing the apps are 'safe', then surely they can. If they want to install an app outside of this and assume the risk, they should be able to. Do you solely use the MacOS app store, or do you download apps directly from 3rd party websites? Apple will not allow it on iOS as it will mean competition. Its that simple.

Fair statement. I could see the argument to allow downloading from reputable third party if and when the user decides to turn the option on. However, this opens the floodgates to possibly doing more harm then good. As a previous user mentioned... I do not want to go to 5-6+ App Stores to access / redownload apps. Yes, on a Mac / Windows computer we are very used to this idea. But on my iPhone? I got used to the idea of just going to the Apple App Store since Day 1 and feel far more secure and reassured of what I’m downloading into my personal device.

 

[Mimiron]

This is what you get for being stupid Epic, no sympathy! Teehee!

 

[mannyvel]

Epic is asking a court to enforce a contract that it broke.

Wow, I wonder what legal theory they're working under, the "I shot myself in the foot because I was stupid" theory?

 

[Oohara]

There is absolutely a discussion to have about Apple having unfair developer practices, where big companies get way more leeway than smaller developers. Also, there’s a conversation to have about the fact that the App Store is the only distribution platform on the iPhone.
This, however, should not be a discussion. Epic games purposely went against apples rules, hoping that Apple would give them special treatment. And then, when Apple didn’t give them special treatment, and removed their app from the App Store, they went to the courts crying wolf, despite the fact that Google did the exact same thing.
And now, just two weeks after they said they would never go back on the App Store, they want the court to force Apple to let them back in to the App Store because they’re losing money.
This entire situation is completely stupid, especially on Epics part.
They got themselves into this mess, and now they want the court two just shovel them out of it so they can continue raking in the cash.
I’m sorry, Apple does a lot of shady things, and 30% might be slightly more than I would be comfortable with them taking, but I am not a developer, and I do not run an App Store, so I really can’t have a valid opinion on this. But in this situation, Apple is completely in the right. Epic completely screwed themselves in the situation.
You could call it a... epic fail

Well summarised, exactly what I wanted to say but I was too lazy and couldn't find the words

Trying to get the court to force Apple to let them back into Apple's own marketplace? Epic may be massively successful but that's just their ego overestimating their power and will go down as a massively embarrassing move on their part. What happens next, they just swallow their pride completely, quietly make up with Apple and slide back into the App Store trying to pretend this never happened?

The best part is Epic trying to make Apple out to be an immoral company. Epic's success is entirely built on squeezing money out of children.

 

[pasamio]

I seriously don’t get the downvoted and disagreements on your comment.
Come on guys, his statement is clear... when you disagree please enlighten us and state clearly several things:
- why epic is not talking about PSN, Switch and XBox stores (and Walmart, GameStop, etc gift cards or similar for that matter)
- is the AppStore is such a sucky crappy Orwellian place, why the insistence of wanting to be in it?! They should be actually be fighting to NOT be in it.
- why they don’t, then, follow Blizzard’s footsteps? Online store, multiplayer backend, everything done by themselves... they said “we don’t want to be on other stores because they suck” and they did exactly that. Quite successfully.

Realistically they don't want to be in the App Store, they want to be on the phone. If anything the App Store and IAP is really a diversion from what they actually want: the ability to put what ever app they want onto an Apple developed device. To achieve this they are saying that Apple has a monopoly over Apple's own devices and has tied this monopoly on their devices to their app distribution system. Whilst not entirely novel in many respects, the way they integrated it into the platform, integrated payment services and made the distribution was unique for almost all platforms at the time. The fact that they had an open process for gaining access to the store and distribution to devices was unique, you didn't have to go through nebulous terms with carriers or other gatekeepers. Epic attempt to belittle it all as merely a payment processor is part of the diversion of the fully integrated ecosystem Apple provides. Realistically it's not the App Store they want access to but to the hardware more directly.

Epic have fought against closed platforms consistently because it is an impact on their ability to make money. They savaged Microsoft for years over this with Microsoft's own store initiatives and only relented when Microsoft agreed to make the Hololens an open platform. Realistically I think if Microsoft had a larger market for the Hololens platform they'd never have conceded but they haven't really made it big in that market so needed all the partnership they could get.

Of course Sony would, but you as a developer could also sell that game via hundreds of other retailers - or even sell it yourself direct (such as Super Rare Games do). The point of this argument is Apple do not allow 3rd party stores or indeed any other legitimate means of running software on the full price (non-subsidised) hardware you purchased other than through their store for which they dictate their cut. It wouldn't be so bad if this was a tiny company, but when you have 40% market share - it is a problem. Of course Apple can charge a fee for allowing a developer to use their store front, but if they want to insist on 30% they should also allow 3rd party stores and open up a bit of competition... and don't believe all this rubbish about it being a walled garden to protect the user. They let crap apps slip through all the time, this is about Apple protecting their profit.

I've said it before, MacOS has an App Store. I don't use it (does anyone?) and I therefore download all my MacOS Apps directly from 3rd party websites and guess what, I've never had any issues. Why is the iPhone different?

If you sold a game via hundreds of other retailers and didn't pay Sony the portion of your revenue as required, Sony would do exactly what Apple just did and revoke your access to the Playstation SDK and perhaps even come after you for breach of contract. It would also likely revoke any signing keys you used on the platform making your game unplayable by non-hacked Playstation systems. It doesn't matter if it is physical distribution or digital distribution, a game developer needs to pay Sony money for making games on Sony's platforms. Nintendo similarly require an agreement to publish and leverage their game as well as also including their own approval process to block games they don't want to see on their platform. They require a portion of your revenue regardless.

Let me pose a hypothetical for you: if Apple offered that 30% of your revenue be paid to Apple as a license for developing for iOS and using Apple's intellectual property but in return provided the ability to run your own App Store and use your own payment system, would you accept that?

 

[crawfish963]

I want to know how Epic’s shareholders aren’t calling for blood at this point. This was a catastrophically terrible financial move.