You can't have a monopoly on your own store, this would be like saying Walmart's monopoly of Walmart will tumbling down someday...
Got a tip for us?
Let us know
Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
Epic Games Denied Preliminary Injunction for Fortnite, But Apple Can't Block Unreal Engine
- Thread starter MacRumors
- Start date
- Sort by reaction score
You can't have a monopoly on your own store, this would be like saying Walmart's monopoly of Walmart will tumbling down someday...
You should realize that before Apple created 30%, developers were paying upwards of 50% - 60% to sell in retail and still easily pay 40% + now. And they get nothing for 40%, no support, no developer tools, etc.
That is what makes Epic's lawsuit so bizarre. Heck, Apple isn't even a major player in the mobile space. The other piece of Alice in Wonderland piece of gonzo is that Epic is saying that Apple and Google are monopolies in the same market. The "mono" in monopoly means one. How in the name of sanity can you have two monopolies in the same market?
Right. More over Humble and itch.io both have lower rates then then the 30% that is the industry standard and yet they aren't having any effect.
Because the etymology of the word is not its legal definition. Or even its economics definition
You brought up Unity. Not me. You're simply not making it clear on why you're bringing up Unity. Apple wants Unreal Engine and you're just throwing Unity marketshare numbers without really connecting it back to the original conversation. You admitted yourself you weren't clear.
But ok, now I understand that you're saying Apple doesn't want Unreal because Unity has bigger marketshare. Let's talk about that.
Well I could think of many reasons.
1.
If you look on Steam (largest store for VR games), Unreal beats Unity in marketshare https://circuitstream.com/blog/unity-vs-unreal/
Combine that with: Apple is making a VR headset https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...m-working-on-vr-and-ar-headset-and-ar-glasses
Gee, if I'm making a brand new platform for VR, wouldn't I want the attract the largest amount of game developers to my new platform? Wouldn't I want the big triple A game studios (which most use UE compared to Unity) to make games on my new VR platform?
The worst thing Apple could do when launching a new VR/AR platform is to tell 23% of the big money steam developers to switch engines. Borderlands 3 made a $1bil in revenue and Apple would love to see 30% of that for a Borderlands VR title.
2.
Unreal Engine is being increasingly adopted in film and TV.
Forging new paths for filmmakers on The Mandalorian
Epic Games technical lead Jeff Farris explains how Unreal Engine forged a new production path on "The Mandalorian" Season 1.
Real-time rendered versions of Nissan’s ads hint at the future of TV advertising
Real-time rendering powers a pioneering workflow for TV advertising in a proof-of-concept version of Nissan’s ident films for the ICC Cricket World Cup.
Real-time tools accelerate workflows on Honda’s anime-inspired ads
Graphinica uses game engine technology to create Honda’s TV commercials for the new Civic hatchback that fuse anime elements with photorealistic CG.
HBO’s Westworld turns to Unreal Engine for in-camera visual effects
HBO’s hit sci-fi series Westworld explores the technological landscape of the near future. In season 3, the production also turned to futuristic techniques behind the camera, with help from Unreal Engine.
Designing a film set in VR on "John Wick: Chapter 3 - Parabellum"
Months before the physical film set was built, the production team on the third "John Wick" film was making cinematography decisions in an interactive VR replica months before the physical film set was built.
Virtual production on the battlegrounds of “Game of Thrones”
Real-time technology powered virtual sets, virtual scouting, and shot exploration as The Third Floor helped showmakers innovate increasingly complex scenes on Game of Thrones.
Combine that with UE5's new Nanite geometry, it makes it far easier for CGI artists to see their creation in realtime without the need for retopology. And if you've ever used Unreal Engine (I have used both Unity and Unreal), Macs compile shaders MUCH FASTER than PCs due to Unreal's use of Metal over DirectX. Don't believe me? Here: https://forums.unrealengine.com/unr...aster-in-macbook-pro-vs-gtx-1080-wtf-why-epic
Gee, if Macs can perform better for Unreal Engine, and if filmmakers are increasingly using UE4/UE5 for their movies, then studios will spend more money on new Macs. Apple would be pretty happy to sell millions of Mac Pros. A win for Apple.
3.
Apple doesn't want the bad PR of Epic telling their devs "Apple screwed us over. Write to your government that we need to regulate the App Store". Last thing Apple needs now is more devs shouting at how Apple screwed them over with their App Store.
4.
Those calculations don't make sense at all. If "80% of the mobile market doesn't run Unreal", you're saying 20% of the total mobile market runs Unreal...? So why are you saying 5.4% of "total mobile game market" runs Unreal? Or did you mean 80% *CAN'T* run Unreal and the other 20% *CAN* run Unreal? If that's the case, I never said 80% can't run it. I'm saying developers need to spend extra time optimizing it to make it work on the 80%. So the 5% number holds no water.
You're not making yourself clear in your statements so don't blame me for "forgotten the comment" when you're making things really confusing understand.
So, yes while Unity has larger mobile marketshare, you cannot rely on that statistic alone to conclude that Apple doesn't want Unreal Engine considering the other markets that UE addresses that Apple wants. You're so focused on mobile alone that you don't see what UE does on other platforms that Apple is interested in which is why you're completely wrong.
Last edited:
Right, because 1) overseas banks are not subject to any tax laws, either foreign or domestic, 2) neither the United States nor California tax any income as long as you deposit it in an overseas bank, 3) nor, for that matter, do any foreign countries, and 4) that’s why Apple pay all their tens of thousands of employees, contractors, suppliers, developers, and shareholders, both foreign and domestic, with checks drawn on overseas banks.
/s
At least try to think before posting.
Are we reading the same article? "60% of AR/VR content and 50% of mobile games are made with Unity3D"
How in the name of sanity does 40% or 50% (which is Unreal and everybody else) equal "Unreal beats Unity in marketshare"?!
Other things in that article that stand out:
Unity:
- Over 24 billion installs of engine in the last 12 months
- Supports 28 platforms (from iOS & Oculus to Windows Mixed Reality and all in-between)
- ore than 7 million users from the design and enterprise community
- Over 15 supported platforms
"The amount of assets in Unity Asset Store is five times that, with about 31,000+ 3D assets alone:"
Every one of those is from the Unreal website. Can you say propaganda, neighbor?
Unless Unreal devs are dumber then a rock or living under one I don't see them taking Epic's advice. They, like the judge, will see it as a self inflicted wound by a company that didn't have enough brains to launch their Steam competitor with a shopping cart (and unless something has changed recently is still missing one). Never mind the bad PR Epic's store is getting regarding their exclusives especially the ones that got money by saying they would launch on a host of platforms on day one.
Besides getting this pro American anti China President to agree to this is laughable. Heck, he already tried to clean the clock (
) of one company thanks to their Chinese connections. Never mind, we are already seeing disputes regarding the conclusions of the Democratic House committee by Republicans (while in related news the sun will rise tomorrow )It called taking the best odds and is a quick and dirty statistical method. IOW it given Unreal the best possible break statistically...even if it is unreasonable. In a real world that 5.4% is actually Unreal and everybody else.
Last edited:
lol All these arm-chair judges who think their knowledge of the industry and the specific issue is greater than the judge's. We're so honoured to listen to your wisdom on MR.
Wonder who got the reference? That made me guffaw out loud.
Did you completely miss the "NOTABLE GAMES" pie chart? That's where the money is.
Why would Apple care about trash unity games that a 12 year old student made and submitted to the app store?
Your banging the "mobile marketshare" drum again which I've already argued is a moot point. Re-read my comment.
28 billion installs is a useless statistic as Unity has several alpha builds released every week and data centers are constantly breaking down and redeploying build servers hundreds of times a day
And 7 million users from enterprise community is something Apple doesn't want to ignore.
I can buy most 3D Unity store assets and import it to Unreal. They're FBX files which is an industry standard. Not sure what your point is.
Oh and one thing I've found annoying in the Unity is that there are several thousands of sound and music assets for sale. Those assets are just MP3s and WAVs which can be played anywhere. It's annoying when you're looking through for some visual assets and these pop up in the search with no way to exclude them from the results. It doesn't really add any value to the Unity engine valuation. Moot point.
Every one of those is from the Unreal website. Can you say propaganda, neighbor?
ILM reveals how it used Unreal Engine for ‘The Mandalorian’
ILM used Epic Games' Unreal Engine to create virtual sets for 'The Mandalorian.' This enables filmmakers to capture visual effects in camera.
Transforming the auto industry with digital assets
Virtual cars are becoming increasingly important to design, testing, building and sales. Let's take a look at how digital IP is being used now, and its potential for the future of the industry.
www.autonews.com
Westworld Season 3 Uses VFX Similar to The Mandalorian [Updated]
Season 3 will visit futuristic San Francisco.
screenrant.com
How VR was used to help design the glass office fights in 'John Wick 3'
If you watched 'John Wick: Chapter 3', you might be wonder how they made glass office fights. It was made by virtual production. Click for more.
beforesandafters.com
Eros, Epic Games Partner to Bring Unreal Engine to Bollywood
Star Wars, Game of Thrones, and others have made use of it in the past.
I got plenty of non-epic links. Now tell me, how does it make it any less true? Or is that the only counter-argument you can come up with? Realtime engines in film is growing and UE plays an important part in that. You haven't stated why Apple should just ignore this segment of the market.
Unless Unreal devs are dumber then a rock or living under one I don't see them buying Epic's advice. They, like the judge, will see it as a self inflicted wound by a company that didn't have enough brains to launch their Steam competitor with a shopping cart (and unless something has changed is still missing one). Never mind the bad PR Epic is getting regarding their exclusives especially the ones that got money by saying they would launch on a host of platforms on day one.
Besides getting this pro American anti China President to agree to this is laughable. Heck, he already tried to clean the clock
What do you mean "buying Epic's advice"? If Unreal Engine is blocked, they can no longer update their game on iOS and Mac. That'll enrage developers and have them complain which could increase chances of government regulating the App Store.
Apple has more to lose than Epic in terms of negative PR as a bulk of UE income come from console royalties while Apple's App Store makes them a ton of money.
You completely misunderstood both my earlier comment about UE being "unforgiving" (which does not mean 80% can't run UE, which invalidates your 5.4% calculation) and my later comment about how 20% is contradictory of the 5.4% you mentioned.
You're not addressing these points clearly.
Last edited:
I'm surprised the following isn't a meme:
This is the Internet. Who said thinking goes into comments?
Sometimes, the way people talk about this fiasco almost has me convinced that I was the only person who ever bothered to load up Fortnite on his Mac. That is to say: like the iOS version of Fortnite, the Mac version has also been un-updatable since Epic got their accounts shutdown by Apple... but hardly anyone really talks about that. Weird.
(And yes, I know I can just bootcamp it -- but that's sidestepping the point.)
They could update the mac version. Users would just have to click a button in an alert box the first time they tried to run it.
You are correct, that they could release an unsigned app which would technically work just fine -- but they have chosen not to do so. That only reinforces my initial point, that maybe I'm (pretty nearly) the only one who bothered.
Epic isn’t saying that Apple and Google are monopolies in the same market.
Epic alleged that Apple has monopoly power in the iOS app distribution market and in the iOS in-app payment processing market.
Epic alleged that Google has monopoly power in the merchant market for mobile OSs, in the Android app distribution market, and in the Android in-app payment processing market.
Of course they can allege all they want, fact is that "iOS app distribution" is not a market, and "Android app distribution" is not a market. "App distribution" is a market, and both Apple and Google do their best to keep the other from becoming a monopoly.
That sounds right, but that is what the court will have to decide. After markets for a specific company’s products, for example, *could* be “markets,” and the app stores may be analogous to those. Maybe.
That is yet to be determined. Under existing market definition doctrine, something like iOS app distribution could be a relevant antitrust market in itself.
I support Apple's position, more or less. But Apple has some vulnerability here and I think its response to Epic's market definition arguments is telling. It didn't really have a good response. It focused on the options available to Epic for distributing its games, and that isn't what antitrust market definition focuses on. It focuses on options available to consumers, not options available to competitors.
In the same way that McDonalds has a monopoly on the “what’s sold in McDonalds restaurants” market - inform McDonalds that you want to set up a lemonade stand in their restaurants and see how well that goes over.
The problem with in-app payment processing is that it has to cover all the costs of the App Store (servers, maintenance, app reviewing, development tools, and a bunch of other stuff, as well as payment processing), so of course it’s going to cost more - if they let people use whatever payment processing system they wanted, then every app would switch to “download for free on the App Store, then pay us $10 (or whatever) via Stripe/PayPal/etc.”, and Apple would make $0 off running the store while everyone was still using all those resources.
So, Apple would have to start charging for having apps on the store (“Sure, you can do your payment processing through Stripe, but we’re going to charge you $1000/mo to have each of your apps on the store”). (This would also kill small developers, because Apple would have to charge every app the same cost... unless maybe they charged app developers per download) At which point all the companies will scream that this is terribly unfair, and that they have to be allowed to distribute software without the App Store. And they’ll get someone in Congress to listen to their tale of woe.
And then the App Store will effectively cease to exist. And with it will go one of the big selling points of the iPhone. It has great hardware, it’s easy to use (more simple than some want, but for them there’s Android), and it has a a rich trustworthy app ecosystem, an app you download might not be very good (that is, of course, why it’s best to check independent reviews for non-trivial apps), but you can trust the app not to screw with you - not to be phishing you for credit card details, or keylogging your credentials for websites or banks). Yes, once in a while something bad gets through (though not ever(?) that level of bad?), but those are rare exceptions, not the rule. A lot of people like that the App Store is that kind of trustworthy. Strip that way, and you make the iOS ecosystem that much more like Android. If you want to run Android, just go ****ing run Android. Don’t mess with the iOS ecosystem.
It is this that has me scratching my head. How is claiming McDonalds has a "monopoly" on selling McRib any different then the nonsense Epic is claiming regarding Apple and iOS? The first is nonsensical but the second isn't. How in the name of sanity does that freaking work?!
More over since come the ARM macs iOS programs can run along side most Intel Mac programs (a few won't run) which can be downloaded by other providers such as Steam, Origin, and literally hundreds of individual sites.
You know that's defining a market size of one (1), right? If you want to say a "market" can be an individual brand or product - then *all* brands or products are monopolies to themselves. e.g. Maybe you own a successful retail or online store. Well, now your brand and store(s) are monopolies by themselves. So, you're going to have to allow me and anyone else, free of charge, to use part of your store for selling our own goods. Maybe you're a family owned store and don't want to sell vapes, tobacco, pot, porn, sex toys, political or hateful items - well, sucks to be you. I get my own store independent of yours, inside of your own, because you have a monopoly on the people that visit your store. You can't dictate what I sell or even get a percentage of sales.
The reality will mean that, yea, Epic has a monopoly on the people who pay for emotes or outfits (probably even, v-bucks) in the Fortnite app / market place. Maybe, possibly, Epic can be the monopoly provider of v-bucks. But, I don't have to accept v-bucks since I'll be able to have my own IAP for my items. Epic on their own may have a rule that they'll only sell cosmetic stuff for Fortnite, but guess what.... I get to have my own store with my own rules, that aren't subject to Epic's whim, so I can sell weapons or stat boosts or anything I want because Epic can't have a monopoly on their product.
How is this better for the consumer? They'll now have to deal with multiple accounts and probably multiple currencies form the different vendors selling IAP which may break the game because they don't have to respect Epic's terms or conditions or restrictions.
One major difference is that with retail the developer would be paid on delivery when they ship a pallet of software boxes to the retail store. The retailer then takes the risk that they can liquidate that inventory. $2.50+ per square foot per month retail fees. Assuming a single square foot of software stacked on a shelf with total of 5 shelves, you are looking at $0.50 per square foot per month cost MINIMUM for that retail store to carry your product (not counting the remaining items in the pallet in the back).
Of course digital market is different because the cost to host and bandwidth for downloads is literally pennies per month.
However storage and delivery of the product is not the only thing that App Store provides:
- marketing
- code review for quality and standards (battery usage, etc)
- user reviews
- copy protection
- app highlights (app of the day, what we use, etc)
- international distribution at no additional cost to developer other than localization (this is HUGE)
- indie development somewhat equalized with big players
- WWDC videos and other resources (technically they are not part of App Store but they would not exist like it is now without it -- $300+ access fees for the videos)
There are definitely things that Apple needs to change to make it better for the developers. Things like a full featured demo + purchase instead of forcing the developer to unlock features with in-app purchases; and also a system of software upgrades without them being separate products.