Epic Games Loses Again in Battle With Apple Over App Store Rules

[deevey]

The eu is not to be played with. Companies who tried got hurt, see Microsoft. Or apple, with the whole ludicrous usb c thing. Ultimately the eu will get what it wants, apple can fight like a child and lose like a child (and be ridiculed for its behaviour), or be an adult, comply with the law -and its spirit- and avoid antagonising eu citizens, who are generally less likely to have sympathy for a huge corporation trying to dodge the law.

I am an EU citizen and have less sympathy for a multi-billion dollar EU corporation who wants a free ride on the coat-tails of an eco system someone else built (Match group).

"Spirit of the law" means jack vs actual law as written. The term is simply an excuse for a law that was not properly crafted either due to it being rushed or the technology not being understood. Any lawyer will close off the loopholes in contracts - lawmakers should consider doing the same.

Who said you will need to be a verified signed (by apple) app to be installed (or ‘sideloaded’, as people say nowadays). Apps don’t need to be checked and signed by apple to be ‘sideloaded’ on a Mac. You get a warning, but you can still install any app. If an app doesn’t come from the store it probably won’t need any signature.

Who said it wouldn't ? We're speculating here. Personally I'd like to see app signing being mandatory at a bare minimum.

 

[svish]

Good win for Apple.

 

[boyarka]

Apple won the battle but lost the war. In-app payments and app store are a monopoly.

 

[dwaite]

Idk man. Things seem to be going pretty well for them in the EU. They’re getting sideloading this year.

I’d imagine that once people worldwide see what EU customers can do with their iPhones, there will be more demand for sideloading elsewhere. I’d be surprised if the US doesn’t have sideloading by iOS 19.

I'll wait to see if side loading changes anything other than where I download Apple-approved apps from.

 

[dwaite]

Good thing I don't shop at Walmart because alternative marketplaces are available. You're right, I'll just find an alternative marketplace on my iPhone and...oh wait

You seem to have lost the analogy. You aren't finding alternative marketplaces inside a Walmart.

But hey - enjoy going perhaps to Target, who also charges a 50% premium over wholesale to pay their utilities, pay their employees, and yes hopefully eke out a profit for the shareholders.

Yeah not the same situation as a physical store or even a virtual one selling physical goods, it's like arguing that you shouldn't be able to buy an iPhone at Walmart and browse Target's website using that same iPhone because that's what Apple does to developers...

Yep, lost the analogy.

 

[duffman9000]

Someone may defeat Apple eventually, leading to its downfall...... but I'm betting it's not a human, or a company run by humans.

AI. I'm betting on AI to dismantle and destroy a lot of things. Entire companies, and even nations.

I, for one, welcome our robot overlords.

 

[BvizioN]

Idk man. Things seem to be going pretty well for them in the EU. They’re getting sideloading this year.

Side-loading with classic Apple style warnings that scare the sh*** out of of anyone who attempts to go ahead. Only the dearest few would be able too. EU bureaucrats are far too dump to outsmart Apple.

 

[NewOldStock]

Your government needs help in your control. Vote for side loading apps on your iPhone so it makes it easier for them use a contractor to do their dirty work for them.
Use phone for remote apps thank you very much on the side loads your government thanks you.
Your phone is control for all their needs all in one convenient computer.
We all know this.
They want it to all be easier to get your information and blame it on the contractor,
whoops.
Being connected to all business phones and internet is a big resource on people and information.
Careful what you wish for.
One control or many controls are the options.

 

[Abazigal]

Apple won the battle but lost the war. In-app payments and app store are a monopoly.

It’s worth noting that being a monopoly in itself is not a crime. You have to also prove the harm to consumers (for US market) or harm to businesses (for EU markets).

Epic was not able to prove how the closed nature of the App Store constituted a net negative to consumers (because it’s not) and that is why Epic lost the lawsuit.

Once again, people bet against Apple to their own detriment.

 

[Naraxus]

Once again, people bet against Apple to their own detriment.

Again I think it's a mix of both. Yes Epic lost in the courts thus far but considering the laws that are coming into force in the EU (and may yet show up State-side) Epic may end up getting what they want regardless.

 

[beanbaguk]

Epic are total hypocrites. The only goon here is Sweeney.

 

[rid]

They got everyone talking about them, didn't they?

Worth the legal fees.

 

[Snahbah]

I wonder if they really have lost, as sideloading is coming to the EU. Perhaps once US legislators see that an iPhone is a computer like any other and it belongs to you, not Apple - how long can they defend a closed environment?

I have a feeling that Apple is just holding on as the inevitable will come to pass.

 

[Velli]

Seeing as the game gets 25 million players daily and Chapter 4 Season 2 has been overwhelmingly positive with the cyberpunk theme and Attack on Titan cosmetics, yeah people still play it lmao. They're holding ingame Coachella concerts right now

“Nobody goes there anymore, it’s too crowded.”

 

[Abazigal]

Again I think it's a mix of both. Yes Epic lost in the courts thus far but considering the laws that are coming into force in the EU (and may yet show up State-side) Epic may end up getting what they want regardless.

Yeah. I don’t really have anything new or extra to add on to the topic of sideloading, honestly, until Apple unveils their implementation during WWDC.

 

[AppliedMicro]

If an app is not available on the app store they are gonna spend a ton on marketing.

If an app is on the App Store, they‘re still gonna spend it.
It’s not as if Apple would be marketing thousands of apps for free.

PayPal doesn't have to deal with the costs of operating an App Store either.

They have to deal with payment fraud.
Arguably riskier than running an App Store on commission.

Twitter for example costs less if you subscribe directly from them and 30% more if you do it through apple. An app I use (Skritter) costs £99 / year if you subscribe through apple, but you get a 50% discount if you subscribe through them bypassing apple

Even if they do charge the same price, they could pocket more money to spend on developing innovations.

Side-loading with classic Apple style warnings that scare the sh*** out of of anyone who attempts to go ahead. Only the dearest few would be able too. EU bureaucrats are far too dump to outsmart Apple.

I will be happy to watch Apple investigated and fined for breach of the Digital Markets Act‘s anti-circumvention clauses. That will make for great entertainment and discussions here on the forum.

„The gatekeeper shall not engage in any behaviour that undermines effective compliance with the obligations of Articles 5, 6 and 7 regardless of whether that behaviour is of a contractual, commercial or technical nature, or of any other nature, or consists in the use of behavioural techniques or interface design.
(…)
The gatekeeper shall not degrade the conditions or quality of any of the core platform services provided to business users or end users who avail themselves of the rights or choices laid down in Articles 5, 6 and 7, or make the exercise of those rights or choices unduly difficult, including by offering choices to the end-user in a non-neutral manner, or by subverting end users’ or business users' autonomy, decision-making, or free choice via the structure, design, function or manner of operation of a user interface or a part thereof.“

 

[uller6]

Aparently we are in agree to disagree territory. Do you really believe that Steam, Amazon, Epic, etc won't jump on offering devs exclusive distribution deals if they move to their store? Epic will not suffer one bit if players need to just visit their site to download apps but their users will have, IMHO, a degraded experience. In the specific case of Epic I feel the first thing they will do is try to go head to head with Steam by leveraging their game engine business. Now instead of having 1 set of app store apps and login credentials users will need to have many, increasing their vulnerability to hacks.



Ever consider that the way we do things on "computers" isn't the best way or the only path? A form of variety and choice is the ability to choose between a walled garden and an open platform. When everything is legislated into being an open platform there is no choice. One cannot deny that Apple provides a neat and clean experience.

I’ve used the epic game store on windows. It’s hot trash. Steam has great games, but it’s annoying it requires internet connectivity to play them, and it drives me insane that steam still won’t use windows native design language in their UI. The 3rd party UI is cringe. The MS store isn’t fantastic either, but at least it has a native windows UI.

It’s bad enough that Slack on my Mac has a non-native UI too. Now you’re telling me all these poorly designed app stores are coming too?

My eyeballs!!!

 

[amartinez1660]

Is it safe to laugh when a billionaire speaks about wanting a meritocracy?

You bet, said billionaire has to know by now that the larger an organization is, it isn’t efficiency that gets rewarded but complacency.
Bad behavior, “the buddies” and nepotism tends to trump over merit.

When someone is a one man company, getting a new office chair could take 10mins to order. On a several thousands one with armies of HR, legal, “Chiefs/Directors of Finance” positions, that chair can take weeks and the ordering action is more expensive than the chair itself.

Same for a $1 you give to a homeless person versus going through “programs and systems”. In one case the person receives $1, in the other I would bet not even .10c after all bureaucrats chipped away at it.

(I bet it was rhetorical, needed the rant, laughing away)

Someone may defeat Apple eventually, leading to its downfall...... but I'm betting it's not a human, or a company run by humans.

AI. I'm betting on AI to dismantle and destroy a lot of things. Entire companies, and even nations.

I, for one, welcome our robot overlords.

Regarding a company run by humans, during a Cold Fusion episode about the current state of AI, there was this:


Also regarding keeping it in check:


Heck maybe someone asks “what should we do to make more money” and it spit out things to do like these Epic’s risky gambles. And maybe that’s what they did! maybe they have had access to less competent AI guidance all this time 😮… [x files theme plays here]

 

[BvizioN]

I will be happy to watch Apple investigated and fined for breach of the

Yeah, keep dreaming.....

 

[I7guy]

Just about but this thing's probably going to go on for a few more years before the dust settles.

I do have to wonder if this is a sort of "Fall On The Sword" thing for Epic in that it's been hammered in the courts thus far but may ultimately end up being successful & getting what it wants thanks to legislation/laws like those from the EU

I doubt any epic game is coming to an iPhone in the US.

 

[4odomi]

Epic Games and Apple have been fighting over Apple's App Store rules since 2020, when Epic Games opted to blatantly violate the guidelines that prevent apps from avoiding the in-app purchase system. Epic Games did so with the aim of kicking off a long legal battle, but it has not gone in Epic's favor.

In 2021, the judge overseeing the case sided with Apple, concluding that Apple was not violating antitrust law and was not a monopolist. Epic Games almost immediately appealed the ruling and claimed that the original court "reached the wrong answer" and "made multiple legal errors." Unfortunately for Epic Games, the appeals court today sided with Apple, upholding the original ruling.

According to Bloomberg, the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals rejected Epic's claims that the App Store rules violate federal antitrust law by not allowing for third-party app marketplaces. This is largely a win for Apple, but the court did also uphold the original court's decision on Apple's anti-steering rules.

Apple was ordered to implement App Store changes that will allow developers to use metadata buttons, links, and other calls to action to direct customers to purchasing mechanisms outside of the App Store, paving the way for developers to implement alternate payment options.

"There is a lively and important debate about the role played in our economy and democracy by online transaction platforms with market power," said the appeals court. "Our job as a federal court of appeals, however, is not to resolve that debate -- nor could we even attempt to do so. Instead, in this decision, we faithfully applied existing precedent to the facts."

Apple has been able to put off making App Store updates until the conclusion of the appeals trial, as Apple had appealed the portion of the ruling that did not go in its favor. Apple will presumably need to make changes to the App Store at some point in the near future to comply with the court's ruling.

According to Apple, the proposed App Store changes could "upset the careful balance between developers and customers provided by the ‌‌‌App Store‌‌‌," resulting in irreparable harm to Apple and consumers. Apple also said that it needed time to figure out the "complex and rapidly evolving legal, technological, and economic issues" that the update would cause.

In a statement to MacRumors, Apple said that the decision reaffirms its "resounding victory" against Epic Games.
Though Apple said that it support the court's decision, the company does disagree with the ruling on the App Store changes, and says that it is "considering further review."

Article Link: Epic Games Loses Again in Battle With Apple Over App Store Rules

Epic Games and Apple have been fighting over Apple's App Store rules since 2020, when Epic Games opted to blatantly violate the guidelines that prevent apps from avoiding the in-app purchase system. Epic Games did so with the aim of kicking off a long legal battle, but it has not gone in Epic's favor.

In 2021, the judge overseeing the case sided with Apple, concluding that Apple was not violating antitrust law and was not a monopolist. Epic Games almost immediately appealed the ruling and claimed that the original court "reached the wrong answer" and "made multiple legal errors." Unfortunately for Epic Games, the appeals court today sided with Apple, upholding the original ruling.

According to Bloomberg, the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals rejected Epic's claims that the App Store rules violate federal antitrust law by not allowing for third-party app marketplaces. This is largely a win for Apple, but the court did also uphold the original court's decision on Apple's anti-steering rules.

Apple was ordered to implement App Store changes that will allow developers to use metadata buttons, links, and other calls to action to direct customers to purchasing mechanisms outside of the App Store, paving the way for developers to implement alternate payment options.

"There is a lively and important debate about the role played in our economy and democracy by online transaction platforms with market power," said the appeals court. "Our job as a federal court of appeals, however, is not to resolve that debate -- nor could we even attempt to do so. Instead, in this decision, we faithfully applied existing precedent to the facts."

Apple has been able to put off making App Store updates until the conclusion of the appeals trial, as Apple had appealed the portion of the ruling that did not go in its favor. Apple will presumably need to make changes to the App Store at some point in the near future to comply with the court's ruling.

According to Apple, the proposed App Store changes could "upset the careful balance between developers and customers provided by the ‌‌‌App Store‌‌‌," resulting in irreparable harm to Apple and consumers. Apple also said that it needed time to figure out the "complex and rapidly evolving legal, technological, and economic issues" that the update would cause.

In a statement to MacRumors, Apple said that the decision reaffirms its "resounding victory" against Epic Games.
Though Apple said that it support the court's decision, the company does disagree with the ruling on the App Store changes, and says that it is "considering further review."

Article Link: Epic Games Loses Again in Battle With Apple Over App Store Rules

Apple is far from whiter than white, however they don't force any company onto App Store or any customer to buy their products, any developer on the App Store knows the deal before they join!
Epic is a disgusting company, they basically wanted to have Apple customers and not pay for it 😡
On rare occasions the courts get it right and this is one of them 👏

 

[4odomi]

I’m just happy that MacRumors finally started using a different picture. I was so sick of the one with the Fortnight characters in it.

Epic was wrong to begin with. However, and I’ve said this for a while, Apple’s error is spending millions fighting this in the courts and spending very little fighting this in the world of public opinion.

Apple is being forced to change course around the world and, without getting into the politics of their position, unless people understand, and agree with Apple’s perspective, they will be forced to open up the iPhone to third party stores and payment systems.

and 10% max, will use side loading, because they can't see further than their own nose, until their phone gets hacked or destroyed by a virus 🤣

 

[4odomi]

Forget alternate app stores for the moment: why, 8 years after the initial release, am I still being prevented from installing custom watch faces on Apple Watch? Those “custom watch face” apps don’t count as they are a glorified app that has to stay active to operate as intended

Like epic, you were aware of this when you bought the watch!
If you don't like it buy an Android watch and stop moaning!

 

[duffman9000]

You bet, said billionaire has to know by now that the larger an organization is, it isn’t efficiency that gets rewarded but complacency.
Bad behavior, “the buddies” and nepotism tends to trump over merit.

When someone is a one man company, getting a new office chair could take 10mins to order. On a several thousands one with armies of HR, legal, “Chiefs/Directors of Finance” positions, that chair can take weeks and the ordering action is more expensive than the chair itself.

Same for a $1 you give to a homeless person versus going through “programs and systems”. In one case the person receives $1, in the other I would bet not even .10c after all bureaucrats chipped away at it.

(I bet it was rhetorical, needed the rant, laughing away)




Regarding a company run by humans, during a Cold Fusion episode about the current state of AI, there was this:
View attachment 2193294

Also regarding keeping it in check:
View attachment 2193295

Heck maybe someone asks “what should we do to make more money” and it spit out things to do like these Epic’s risky gambles. And maybe that’s what they did! maybe they have had access to less competent AI guidance all this time 😮… [x files theme plays here]

The AI laid off that team. 🤫

 

[duffman9000]

It’s ironic and highly amusing that people here call Apple greedy and also defend Epic. Have you not seen how Epic monetizes Fortnight?