Epic Games Loses Again in Battle With Apple Over App Store Rules

[4odomi]

Good. I want them to open up the iPhone to third party stores and payment systems. I paid for my iPhone so I deserve everything that is on the iPhone.

IF & it's a big IF you've actually got an iPhone, I very much doubt you paid for it (more likely your parents 🤣) and even if you paid for it, you were aware that it was a closed system with it's own App Store and no side loading!
So why did you buy it? Why do you use it?
Exactly......you're not an Apple user, just a troll 😏

 

[4odomi]

People still play this?

Only not too bright kids 🤣

 

[mrat93]

Side-loading with classic Apple style warnings that scare the sh*** out of of anyone who attempts to go ahead. Only the dearest few would be able too. EU bureaucrats are far too dump to outsmart Apple.

You must think users are really “dump” to have the sh** scared out of them by text warnings when installing software.

Do you really think “allowing sideloading but putting scary warnings” means that Apple won and actually out-maneuvered the EU? Serious question.

Will it be the same if the same thing happens in the US?

 

[mrat93]

I love this comment, the real reason people want side loading is to do illegal stuff, plain and simple.

Uh oh.. Somebody called the retro gaming purist police. Everybody delete your illegal ROMs!! Stop playing games that haven’t been rereleased on modern hardware in over 20 years!!

 

[mrat93]

People still play this?

No. Just a figment of your imagination.

 

[mrat93]

Only not too bright kids 🤣

EPIC BURN 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

edit: sarcasm

 

[4odomi]

No. All gardens should be open free and safe.

Open & safe, doesn't go hand in hand, it's a contradiction!

 

[4odomi]

Imagine if PayPal could get away with charging a 30% fee on all virtual transactions. They can't, because they're not a monopoly. Apple can, because they are. This is a big win for both developers who see fewer purchases due to the inflated prices, and users who end up paying that 30% fee, and I'm glad for the Epic Games lawsuit.

Apple only has a minority share of the market! (approx 30% on iPhone) much less on MacBooks
You need to polish up your understanding of Monopoly....spend more time studying instead of playing games.

 

[ss2cire]

Yeah totally just illegal stuff. Not like there's a bunch of apps Apple refuses to let be on the App Store that Google allows on it's Play Store, like retro game emulators, virtual machine managers for iPadOS, iOS themes, corny apps (you know what I mean by "corny",) and other app types Apple for some reason don't allow.

Apple hits another low note with the App Store

Apple should reconsider its ban on the iDOS app, a fun nod to the past.

www.macworld.com

Also I hate the term "sideloading." Let's call it what it actually is: Installing software. Apple and Google have gaslit y'all into thinking installing any app not in their App Stores is taboo, despite the fact the Mac can do this just fine.

I don't know why people keep comparing iOS to macOS... they are not the same thing. iOS (and iPadOS but I'll just say iOS) is a mobile operating system, designed from the ground up to run on a phone. macOS was designed as a general computing OS, which is partially the reason you can install Applications from anywhere.

But again, people keep making the false equivalency between the 2. What about tvOS? I'm curious as to why everyone makes the argument the want to put any App on their phone when tvOS is sitting there too. Very similar. But I digress.

The reality is, once Apple is forced to open iOS up, it's going to cause so many new security issues:
1. Apple will be blamed for it.
2. That's all I've got.

Scams, security, instability, battery drainage, all because Apple won't be able to curate the Apps anymore. Again Apple will be blamed and its brand will lose massive value.

Sideloading: Yes. on a Mobile OS, it is sideloading, because it's not the official way to install Apps. It's a way to get around the security and stability the normal App install process works.

Enough of my rambling and now I'll probably be ripped to shreds

 

[4odomi]

The simple fix. Cancel support for the App Store altogether and go to a single subscription model like Apple one and Arcade. Then like streaming companies pay Artist for plays, Apple can pay developers based on active usage and maybe a bonus for downloads. These would be the only apps that benefit from Apple marketing and support. They could also charge a percentage of revenue from the App Store which will require those that opt for an outside store to report sales to Apple or be blocked from using APIs

Alternatively don't try to fix what's not broken and if someone doesn't like it, they can buy an Android!

 

[4odomi]

I always feel like there’s double-speak from the ‘sideloading’ opponents:

On the one hand, they see no problem in having no choice but to buy all of their apps through one single all-controlling entity. On the other hand, if they have to buy one particular app directly from its developer, it‘s supposedly a huge problem of „being forced“ into things.

They‘re even calling the former, being forced to buy everything from one store and company, a „choice“ that would somehow be „taken away“ from them, be denied to them, if apps can be bought somewhere else

Having to buy one app from one particular seller is a huge problem.
Having to buy all apps from one monopoly seller though is exercising real choice.

You're simply lying with your spin, on this issue.
The fact is, everyone has a choice at the moment, buy Apple and be more secure or buy Android and be slightly less secured! That's exactly what the appellant Court have said!
So stop spinning your fake rubbish 😡

 

[gaximus]

Uh oh.. Somebody called the retro gaming purist police. Everybody delete your illegal ROMs!! Stop playing games that haven’t been rereleased on modern hardware in over 20 years!!

I'm not saying that I wouldn't do this, I'm just saying this is why we want it.

 

[robco74]

You must think users are really “dump” to have the sh** scared out of them by text warnings when installing software.

Do you really think “allowing sideloading but putting scary warnings” means that Apple won and actually out-maneuvered the EU? Serious question.

Will it be the same if the same thing happens in the US?

When you allow for the installation of an APK from a website, there are hoops you need to jump through and warning modals. Epic tried distributing Fortnite to Android users from their website, bypassing the Play Store. Most users wouldn't click past the warnings and install the app. This is why Epic is suing Google as well. Epic wants to piggyback on the trust that Apple and Google have built with their users. They want the low friction purchasing that the App Store and Play Store provide, but without having to pay anything for it.

There are several stores available on Android. Most purchases are made through the Play Store. So while Apple and Google may technically "lose", it's unlikely that many users will flock to an Epic Games Store on mobile devices. They're still having trouble breaking through on the PC, despite taking lower commissions and giving away games for free. The EU may not get the outcome they desire. Unless or until a third-party can offer something compelling that Apple or Google can't, or at a vastly, not marginally, lower price, then they won't succeed. The regulation will give third-parties the opportunity to do so, but with no guarantee of success. Unless governments want to step in further to ensure there a certain number of players on the field.

 

[mrat93]

I'm not saying that I wouldn't do this, I'm just saying this is why we want it.

Ah, fair, though I think it’s wrong (though technically accurate) to simplify emulation as “doing illegal stuff”.

Most people (source: my guess) emulate games which aren’t available on newer platforms. Why am I the bad person for downloading Super Smash Bros Melee for Gamecube, 15 years after they stopped selling it, and never rereleased it? It’s not like me buying a Gamecube and the game secondhand will ever benefit the original copyright holders.

I actually got a copyright strike for torrenting that game. I then got a VPN and uh… never torrented ever again.

 

[Hellokittystampmyfacein]

My store my rules if you don’t like it, go make your own store or your own phone here’s looking at you cydia remember that place

 

[4odomi]

Well there are other platforms to distribute your wares if the dev doesn't want to pay the fee. (at least in the US). 30% seems cheap when you don't have to worry about the infrastructure and the major cost is development and the minor cost is the license.

I am not in agreement with your example of apple being greedy with Lightning. If anything, for me, I wish US iphone 15 still had a lightning connector.

Good Developers are making a fortune on the App Store and the 30% only applies to a certain turnover of business on App Store (I think $1 mil) below that it's only 15%.
I have to disagree with you on the usb-c (although I have no problem with lighting) however most of my Apple stuff is now on USB-C, except iPhone & Air Pods....The truth is, USB-C will offer faster charging, I just hope Apple stitches the EU up and the Android trolls, buy putting a proprietary software in it like MFI 🤣

 

[4odomi]

Apple won the battle but lost the war. In-app payments and app store are a monopoly.

Only to the uneducated 😊

 

[quaresma]

I love how people here defend Apple like the lawsuit involves their family

 

[duffman9000]

Uh oh.. Somebody called the retro gaming purist police. Everybody delete your illegal ROMs!! Stop playing games that haven’t been rereleased on modern hardware in over 20 years!!

You can call it whatever you want. Pirating by a different name is still pirating.

 

[Spaceboi Scaphandre]

I don't know why people keep comparing iOS to macOS... they are not the same thing.

Probably because Steve Jobs himself said, on stage, that iPhone is running desktop class application software, even saying it was running OSX

iOS (and iPadOS but I'll just say iOS) is a mobile operating system, designed from the ground up to run on a phone. macOS was designed as a general computing OS, which is partially the reason you can install Applications from anywhere.

Explain Android then, because Android is a "mobile operating system" yet it can install applications from anywhere.

Not only that but iPadOS has a desktop mode and can be plugged into an external monitor, albeit with a worse ui and control scheme compared to macOS. (All the more reason I want a macOS dualboot mode for the iPad Pros)

Oh almost forgot to mention, Samsung's builds of Android has a desktop mode on the phone called DeX. Plug your Galaxy phone into a monitor and the UI changes to a desktop format.

So just because iOS is a "mobile operating system" does not excuse it from restricting all software to just one app store. When I can do my taxes and banking and stock trading from my iPhone, it ceases being just a "mobile operating system"

(And before you say "just buy an Android then," switching to the other duopoly also is not a valid excuse and never has been)

But again, people keep making the false equivalency between the 2. What about tvOS? I'm curious as to why everyone makes the argument the want to put any App on their phone when tvOS is sitting there too. Very similar. But I digress.

Whataboutism. We ain't talking about the Apple TV we're talking about the iPhone/iPad.

Sidenote I would love sideloading on tvOS too, as well as watchOS.

The reality is, once Apple is forced to open iOS up, it's going to cause so many new security issues:
1. Apple will be blamed for it.
2. That's all I've got.

Couldn't even finish your "security issue" argument that has been debunked many many times. At that point don't even type it if you can't finish your thought.

Scams, security, instability, battery drainage, all because Apple won't be able to curate the Apps anymore. Again Apple will be blamed and its brand will lose massive value.

THOSE ALREADY HAPPEN EVEN ON THE APP STORE. Gatekeeping iOS doesn't protect you. You can still get infected with malware through websites and you can still get subjected to scam apps on the app store as there's thousands of knockoff and scam apps that app review miss or just ignore

Sideloading: Yes. on a Mobile OS, it is sideloading, because it's not the official way to install Apps. It's a way to get around the security and stability the normal App install process works.

Enough of my rambling and now I'll probably be ripped to shreds

The option to install apps outside of the app store is a choice, a choice you don't have to take when it's enabled in iOS 17. You wanna stay to the app store that's fine. Those who want to install apps outside of the app store can have their choice. There are a lot of apps that Apple for unknown reasons won't allow on the app store, such as retro game emulation or virtualization software for iPadOS. With sideloading, those kinds of apps would be available and the iPad could get even more use. Xbox Cloud and Nvidia GeforceNow for example is available on Android but not iOS because Apple doesn't allow game streaming apps for some reason while Google does.

 

[Spaceboi Scaphandre]

You can call it whatever you want. Pirating by a different name is still pirating.

Emulation is not piracy as determined MANY MANY TIMES through case law of Sony vs Connectix/Bleem, and Apple vs Correlium. In all three cases retro game (as well as operating system) emulation was classified as Fair Use. Downloading the ROMs is a legal grey area as some would consider the old ROMs abandonware, however since no one has bothered to challenge it in court either due to lack of resources or fear of losing it has remained in this weird legal grey area. Which is why ROMsites have been targeted by Nintendo's lawyers but not the emulators themselves since they cannot touch them, and cannot prove that the ROMs used for said emulators were downloaded or ripped.

DID YOU ALL FORGET STEVE JOBS AND PHIL SCHILLER DEMO'D PS1 EMULATION ON MACOS DURING MACWORLD 1999!?

 

[Tim’s Weenie]

I approve of this.

 

[mrat93]

You can call it whatever you want. Pirating by a different name is still pirating.

Okay? I don’t care lol. Sometimes pirating is justified, even if it’s not legal. Illegal ≠ Immoral.

I’ll happily pay for software that’s available legally on a modern platform, but I’m not paying $200+ for an ancient console, games, and expensive adapters to make them work on my modern TV, when I can simply download them and enjoy them on the platform of my choice, and in better quality than the original release.

 

[mrat93]

Emulation is not piracy as determined MANY MANY TIMES

Yes, but it enables the piracy of Nintendo’s abandonware, which is basically as bad as committing murder.

 

[BaldiMac]

The option to install apps outside of the app store is a choice, a choice you don't have to take when it's enabled in iOS 17. You wanna stay to the app store that's fine. Those who want to install apps outside of the app store can have their choice. There are a lot of apps that Apple for unknown reasons won't allow on the app store, such as retro game emulation or virtualization software for iPadOS. With sideloading, those kinds of apps would be available and the iPad could get even more use. Xbox Cloud and Nvidia GeforceNow for example is available on Android but not iOS because Apple doesn't allow game streaming apps for some reason while Google does.

Those who want to install apps outside the App Store already have multiple choices. Those of us that prefer the Apple model only have one choice, and you want the government to force Apple to eliminate that choice.

That's what this comes down to. Not fairness or antitrust concerns. It's simply that some people and companies want to use governments to force Apple to change their software to work the way they prefer.

More to the point, it's about billion dollar corporations using governments to force trillion dollar corporations to give them a cut. The "sideloading" argument is just window dressing to give the process the appearance of grassroots support. Outside of China, not even Android users choose sideloading or even third-party app stores in any significant numbers.

What laws like the DMA will enable is for large developers to have more leverage against consumers. I think we'll see crappier terms and higher prices to deal with the increased piracy and lower discoverability.

Emulation is not piracy as determined MANY MANY TIMES through case law of Sony vs Connectix/Bleem, and Apple vs Correlium. In all three cases retro game (as well as operating system) emulation was classified as Fair Use. Downloading the ROMs is a legal grey area as some would consider the old ROMs abandonware, however since no one has bothered to challenge it in court either due to lack of resources or fear of losing it has remained in this weird legal grey area. Which is why ROMsites have been targeted by Nintendo's lawyers but not the emulators themselves since they cannot touch them, and cannot prove that the ROMs used for said emulators were downloaded or ripped.

Most emulators are legal. Most people use them for piracy. It isn't a grey area. It's simply an excuse to justify taking advantage of the fact suing individuals for infringement isn't worth the effort.

To be clear, I don't care that people do it. I just don't think it justifies forcing Apple to allow emulators.